Comments on: On the horrors of getting approval for an ice-cream parlour in San Francisco http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Tue, 21 May 2013 00:51:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340621 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:09:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340621 Then you won't have any grounds to object if someone builds a prison next door to you. Then you won’t have any grounds to object if someone builds a prison next door to you.

]]> By: UrbanUndead http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340360 UrbanUndead Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:33:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340360 Yeah, ABC was all *over* SF with this. Had an interesting chat w/the bar manager at Bourbon & Branch about it at the time - astoundedness all around that somebody had decided that this was a good use of public funds. I believe a bar owned by the same folks got expensively nailed for it. Yeah, ABC was all *over* SF with this. Had an interesting chat w/the bar manager at Bourbon & Branch about it at the time – astoundedness all around that somebody had decided that this was a good use of public funds. I believe a bar owned by the same folks got expensively nailed for it.

]]> By: inwoodguy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340347 inwoodguy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340347 Fewer homeless people in Houston as well.  I live in SF, but all the people who yammer on about "how beautiful it is" should come live in my downtown neighborhood.  Watch where you walk and try not to step in the human excrement on the sidewalk or trip over the sleeping people two or three deep before you get to the door... Fewer homeless people in Houston as well.  I live in SF, but all the people who yammer on about “how beautiful it is” should come live in my downtown neighborhood.  Watch where you walk and try not to step in the human excrement on the sidewalk or trip over the sleeping people two or three deep before you get to the door…

]]> By: inwoodguy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340344 inwoodguy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340344 I live in San Francisco.  I make a good income.  And I will never, ever be able to afford to own. SF is a temporary stop for ambitious young people, and a city of, by and for the wealthy. Houston, Austin or Dallas might not be as pretty, but they have a thriving creative class who can actually afford to own homes and start businesses. The rest of Texas, you can keep, but the big cities are undoubtedly more economically vibrant, culturally vibrant, and economically diverse than San Francisco. Heck, with Prop 8 in place, the average gay guy gets along about as well (rights-wise) in Austin as in SF these days too. But his rent is $750 a month with parking included, not $3,750 a month. I live in San Francisco.  I make a good income.  And I will never, ever be able to afford to own.

SF is a temporary stop for ambitious young people, and a city of, by and for the wealthy.

Houston, Austin or Dallas might not be as pretty, but they have a thriving creative class who can actually afford to own homes and start businesses.

The rest of Texas, you can keep, but the big cities are undoubtedly more economically vibrant, culturally vibrant, and economically diverse than San Francisco.

Heck, with Prop 8 in place, the average gay guy gets along about as well (rights-wise) in Austin as in SF these days too. But his rent is $750 a month with parking included, not $3,750 a month.

]]> By: inwoodguy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340335 inwoodguy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:08:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340335 Yes.  San Francisco is incredibly corrupt and incompetent.  This is a city that has a budget that spends over $10,000 per year for every man, woman and child in it, yet had to borrow money in a recent referendum to repave the streets.  Apparently, they couldn't allocate money from the $10K per year per resident for something so basic and simple. Yet we have city-funded committees, with salaries, that send dispatches and "city supervisor recommendations" on such vital city government topics as Israel-Palestine relations and banning puppy mills in stores that only sell tropical fish. Yes.  San Francisco is incredibly corrupt and incompetent.  This is a city that has a budget that spends over $10,000 per year for every man, woman and child in it, yet had to borrow money in a recent referendum to repave the streets.  Apparently, they couldn’t allocate money from the $10K per year per resident for something so basic and simple.

Yet we have city-funded committees, with salaries, that send dispatches and “city supervisor recommendations” on such vital city government topics as Israel-Palestine relations and banning puppy mills in stores that only sell tropical fish.

]]> By: inwoodguy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340330 inwoodguy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:05:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340330 If you cannot rebuild your home after it's been burnt, or put a new door in without government permission, that's more like being a tenant than an owner. If you cannot rebuild your home after it’s been burnt, or put a new door in without government permission, that’s more like being a tenant than an owner.

]]> By: inwoodguy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340325 inwoodguy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340325 Why should a developer need "permits" to build on land that he owns in the first place? The land belongs to him, not the city or his neighbors. Why should a developer need “permits” to build on land that he owns in the first place?

The land belongs to him, not the city or his neighbors.

]]> By: inwoodguy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340322 inwoodguy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340322 That's a big problem in SF.  Many SF residents want to live in the Big City but have all the amenities of a charming country village.  As a result, the costs here are getting insane. For example, the primary way to fix the housing shortage and make affordable apartments is high density housing -- build upwards.  But the NIMBYs with their "I don't want that building there" block high-rise developments for years on end and then complain that monthly rents on apartments are $2,500 to $4,000 due to the extreme shortage they've created. That’s a big problem in SF.  Many SF residents want to live in the Big City but have all the amenities of a charming country village.  As a result, the costs here are getting insane.

For example, the primary way to fix the housing shortage and make affordable apartments is high density housing — build upwards.  But the NIMBYs with their “I don’t want that building there” block high-rise developments for years on end and then complain that monthly rents on apartments are $2,500 to $4,000 due to the extreme shortage they’ve created.

]]> By: oliver n. http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1340287 oliver n. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:33:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1340287 not surprising and absolutely the norm, unfortunately. we were planning to open in an existing business a coffee window (similar to dynamo on 24th in the mission) for high end coffee in the style of italian coffee bars. but a new regulation is in place since last year that regulates coffee as FOOD! therefore the maximum size of the coffee window can be only 20"x20". planning dep signed off our original plans, now health dep comes and says no! i just heard that a grease trap is required as well in a coffee beverage business (wtf! ?????). those are just a few examples of regulations for regulations sake with now actual reason behind it. or are there coffee poisoning cases piling up? we will take our business somewhere else... in another case here in SF, friends of mine moving an existing establishment within a district. they got approved at every level (cu at planning comm., supervisors, police, etc.). now it's hung up on state level because the ABC (state liquor board) is involved. the paperwork is on their desk untouched since last august (!!) waiting to be forwarded to sacramento. the business owners now are going for a temporary license, but the process for the demolition permit is moving at a snail's pace because of one changed rule issued by the, you guess it, health dep! they are paying rent for a year now without being able to do anything with the space!in NYC though the implemented a fast track system in late 2010. a friend opening a restaurant last winter in queens got all his permits (health, building, fire, etc.) within 2 weeks!! can you believe that?? not surprising and absolutely the norm, unfortunately.
we were planning to open in an existing business a coffee window (similar to dynamo on 24th in the mission) for high end coffee in the style of italian coffee bars. but a new regulation is in place since last year that regulates coffee as FOOD! therefore the maximum size of the coffee window can be only 20″x20″. planning dep signed off our original plans, now health dep comes and says no!
i just heard that a grease trap is required as well in a coffee beverage business (wtf! ?????).
those are just a few examples of regulations for regulations sake with now actual reason behind it. or are there coffee poisoning cases piling up?
we will take our business somewhere else…
in another case here in SF, friends of mine moving an existing establishment within a district. they got approved at every level (cu at planning comm., supervisors, police, etc.). now it’s hung up on state level because the ABC (state liquor board) is involved. the paperwork is on their desk untouched since last august (!!) waiting to be forwarded to sacramento. the business owners now are going for a temporary license, but the process for the demolition permit is moving at a snail’s pace because of one changed rule issued by the, you guess it, health dep!
they are paying rent for a year now without being able to do anything with the space!in NYC though the implemented a fast track system in late 2010. a friend opening a restaurant last winter in queens got all his permits (health, building, fire, etc.) within 2 weeks!! can you believe that??

]]> By: Bryce Anderson http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339875 Bryce Anderson Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339875 Government can promote or dismantle monopolies.  But it's silly to say that government is essential to creating monopolies.  There are natural monopolies, like roads, transit systems, utilities, etc.  There are "network effect" monopolies, like operating systems, social networking sites, etc.  And there are obvious advantages to a company that drives its competition off the field or colludes on prices. "Monopolies require governments" is something I keep hearing libertarians claim, but no matter how they explain the sentiment, I can't make it make sense to me. Government can promote or dismantle monopolies.  But it’s silly to say that government is essential to creating monopolies.  There are natural monopolies, like roads, transit systems, utilities, etc.  There are “network effect” monopolies, like operating systems, social networking sites, etc.  And there are obvious advantages to a company that drives its competition off the field or colludes on prices.

“Monopolies require governments” is something I keep hearing libertarians claim, but no matter how they explain the sentiment, I can’t make it make sense to me.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339709 Antinous / Moderator Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:00:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339709 Are you from away yonder? There are quite a few socialists sitting in this room right now. Are you from away yonder?

There are quite a few socialists sitting in this room right now.

]]> By: tomdarch http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339682 tomdarch Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:28:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339682 I haven't dug too far into this story, but as someone who helps small business owners through the regulatory process as part of my job, this all strikes me as someone who dove in without researching the process, and is then upset that it's taking longer than expected.  Generally, when you understand the process ahead of time, it goes much faster and more smoothly. I haven’t dug too far into this story, but as someone who helps small business owners through the regulatory process as part of my job, this all strikes me as someone who dove in without researching the process, and is then upset that it’s taking longer than expected.  Generally, when you understand the process ahead of time, it goes much faster and more smoothly.

]]> By: tomdarch http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339677 tomdarch Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339677 At the municipal level, a large slice of the regulations you have to deal with are direct responses to building/business owners doing things that are stupid/harmful/illegal.  I've been dealing with building permits in Chicago for more than a decade, and the forms get longer, more signatures are needed and more things have to be checked - and the added requirements are clearly responses to developers and building owners sinking to new depths in cutting corners and building what they know they shouldn't.  On the main building permit application, the building owner basically has to sign 3 times over and over promising to only build what is included in the building permit.  This is a response to owners and contractors building without permits and building off permits over and over.  If people acted responsibly, as they are expected to in the unregulated Ron Paul fantasy land, we never would have needed half the permits, forms or regulations in the first place. At the municipal level, a large slice of the regulations you have to deal with are direct responses to building/business owners doing things that are stupid/harmful/illegal.  I’ve been dealing with building permits in Chicago for more than a decade, and the forms get longer, more signatures are needed and more things have to be checked – and the added requirements are clearly responses to developers and building owners sinking to new depths in cutting corners and building what they know they shouldn’t.  On the main building permit application, the building owner basically has to sign 3 times over and over promising to only build what is included in the building permit.  This is a response to owners and contractors building without permits and building off permits over and over.  If people acted responsibly, as they are expected to in the unregulated Ron Paul fantasy land, we never would have needed half the permits, forms or regulations in the first place.

]]> By: tomdarch http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339671 tomdarch Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:19:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339671 Tim in SF is right.  All the actual leftists I know are both too old to "learn the internets" and aren't terribly fond of it's wild west capitalism.  But, hey, if you somehow come across an actual American leftist, I'd be interested to see one in the wild.  (When is the last time anyone here sat in the same room with someone who genuinely,  earnestly advocates nationalizing the entire banking/finance system in the US - you know, an actual leftist position?  hmmm... crickets.) Tim in SF is right.  All the actual leftists I know are both too old to “learn the internets” and aren’t terribly fond of it’s wild west capitalism.  But, hey, if you somehow come across an actual American leftist, I’d be interested to see one in the wild.  (When is the last time anyone here sat in the same room with someone who genuinely,  earnestly advocates nationalizing the entire banking/finance system in the US – you know, an actual leftist position?  hmmm… crickets.)

]]> By: Mainlander http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339637 Mainlander Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:36:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339637 You've only noticed recently that there are pipelines being built in the US? This has been going on for a long time. Keep importing that ME oil America, we know how well that's worked out. Geniuses... You’ve only noticed recently that there are pipelines being built in the US? This has been going on for a long time. Keep importing that ME oil America, we know how well that’s worked out. Geniuses…

]]> By: Mainlander http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339635 Mainlander Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339635 California: stick a fork in it... California: stick a fork in it…

]]> By: BenTheGuy http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1339075 BenTheGuy Tue, 07 Feb 2012 03:10:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1339075 And repeat a million times all over the country, and now you know why our economy has lost it's dynamism.  More regulations, yeah, that's what we need. And repeat a million times all over the country, and now you know why our economy has lost it’s dynamism.  More regulations, yeah, that’s what we need.

]]> By: jimh http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338874 jimh Mon, 06 Feb 2012 22:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338874 Troll bait, I know... Recently we have seen what the deregulated free-market paradise costs, and it isn't cheap either, (for MOST of us). Troll bait, I know…
Recently we have seen what the deregulated free-market paradise costs, and it isn’t cheap either, (for MOST of us).

]]> By: GregS http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338814 GregS Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:29:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338814 It also becomes very difficult to revise or reduce the bureaucracy because so many people and departments have a stake in the system the way it is.  Each government department becomes a little stakeholder in the system that will dig in its heels and oppose any change that would reduce its importance and power. And when you add government unions into the mix the end result is an incredibly powerful inertia that makes any real reform very difficult. It also becomes very difficult to revise or reduce the bureaucracy because so many people and departments have a stake in the system the way it is.  Each government department becomes a little stakeholder in the system that will dig in its heels and oppose any change that would reduce its importance and power. And when you add government unions into the mix the end result is an incredibly powerful inertia that makes any real reform very difficult.

]]> By: GregS http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338805 GregS Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338805 So you think that "rich right wingers" own and control the San Francisco municipal government? What planet are you living on? It sure ain't this one. So you think that “rich right wingers” own and control the San Francisco municipal government? What planet are you living on? It sure ain’t this one.

]]> By: jimh http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338799 jimh Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338799 In SF, we are in the midst of a hand-made ice cream boom! High end donuts and cupcakes are also on the rise. Perhaps economic recessions and increased sugar intake are related. In SF, we are in the midst of a hand-made ice cream boom! High end donuts and cupcakes are also on the rise. Perhaps economic recessions and increased sugar intake are related.

]]> By: jimh http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338796 jimh Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338796 Another case in point- "Burger Urge" at the corner of Haight and Clayton. In eight months the owner was able to combine two existing storefronts (a former tattoo parlor and the adjacent retail store) into one large space, get it approved for food service and kitchen space, demo/completely remodel it, and open a restaurant. It cost nearly $2M, according to him, but it got done. There was also a private fundraising event held in the space for Mayor Ed Lee two weeks before the election in November (and prior to them opening for business.) It's not really hard to figure this out, after all. Another case in point- “Burger Urge” at the corner of Haight and Clayton. In eight months the owner was able to combine two existing storefronts (a former tattoo parlor and the adjacent retail store) into one large space, get it approved for food service and kitchen space, demo/completely remodel it, and open a restaurant. It cost nearly $2M, according to him, but it got done.

There was also a private fundraising event held in the space for Mayor Ed Lee two weeks before the election in November (and prior to them opening for business.) It’s not really hard to figure this out, after all.

]]> By: Nate Whilk http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338722 Nate Whilk Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338722 They still sell ice cream in SF? With all that sugar and fat??????? I'm shocked, shocked that they could allow such an unhealthy option. It's practically child abuse! Only non-fat yogurt with raw honey for sweetening should be sold! /sarcasm They still sell ice cream in SF? With all that sugar and fat??????? I’m shocked, shocked that they could allow such an unhealthy option. It’s practically child abuse! Only non-fat yogurt with raw honey for sweetening should be sold! /sarcasm

]]> By: Tim in SF http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338678 Tim in SF Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:23:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338678 You appear to have some issues with unfocused, misdirected aggression and anger.  Did you go off your meds?  You appear to have some issues with unfocused, misdirected aggression and anger. 

Did you go off your meds? 

]]> By: Teller http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338663 Teller Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338663 To avoid permit issues in SF, always file under Shorenstein or Getty. To avoid permit issues in SF, always file under Shorenstein or Getty.

]]> By: tempbot http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338555 tempbot Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:50:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338555 You nailed it.  I work in municipal gov't and this is absolutely the case.  We just had two projects (one quirky small business, one large developer) fail for exactly these reasons.  When you muddle together a bunch of unrelated regulations that individually might have great merit (walkability! transit-oriented development! community involvement!), you end up with an unmanageable cluster eff. You nailed it.  I work in municipal gov’t and this is absolutely the case.  We just had two projects (one quirky small business, one large developer) fail for exactly these reasons.  When you muddle together a bunch of unrelated regulations that individually might have great merit (walkability! transit-oriented development! community involvement!), you end up with an unmanageable cluster eff.

]]> By: RobertHanson http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338534 RobertHanson Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338534 The choice between anarchic unregulated markets, and fascist hyper regulated markets is a false dichotomy. Taking 2 or 3 years, and tens of thousands of dollars in permits and legal fees to put a door in the DNA lounge has nothing to do with preventing unhygenic food from being sold. There are health codes already in place for that, and it needn't take years of hearings, inspections and bribes, sorry I meant fees, to insure new eateries comply with them. Let the local code and health inspectors come by once before opening, and then again every few months to insure compliance. End the job and business killing multi-year delays. The choice between anarchic unregulated markets, and fascist hyper regulated markets is a false dichotomy. Taking 2 or 3 years, and tens of thousands of dollars in permits and legal fees to put a door in the DNA lounge has nothing to do with preventing unhygenic food from being sold. There are health codes already in place for that, and it needn’t take years of hearings, inspections and bribes, sorry I meant fees, to insure new eateries comply with them. Let the local code and health inspectors come by once before opening, and then again every few months to insure compliance. End the job and business killing multi-year delays.

]]> By: Tim in SF http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338524 Tim in SF Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:17:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338524 I like seeing the word "leftist" in a  post. I know I can safely ignore it without missing anything of importance, quality, humor, or intelligence. I like seeing the word “leftist” in a  post. I know I can safely ignore it without missing anything of importance, quality, humor, or intelligence.

]]> By: Tim in SF http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338522 Tim in SF Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:15:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338522 Went last night at 8-ish. It was PACKED to the gills! I got two scoops to go. The scoops were smallish, but I guess I'm used to the obscene portion sizes at Humphry Slocombe and other places like that. Butterscotch, and buttermilk-something.  Absolutely delicious.  I would have liked to have gotten to the bar for a drink, but the wall of bearded douches was impenetrable. Next time.  Went last night at 8-ish. It was PACKED to the gills!

I got two scoops to go. The scoops were smallish, but I guess I’m used to the obscene portion sizes at Humphry Slocombe and other places like that. Butterscotch, and buttermilk-something.  Absolutely delicious. 

I would have liked to have gotten to the bar for a drink, but the wall of bearded douches was impenetrable. Next time. 

]]> By: BooMushroom http://boingboing.net/2012/02/04/on-the-horrors-of-getting-appr.html#comment-1338516 BooMushroom Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:05:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=142312#comment-1338516 Yup. Koch Brothers totally rule San Francisco! Yup. Koch Brothers totally rule San Francisco!

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