Comments on: Gay cruise not so gay after two arrested on "buggery" in Caribbean

By: Mordicai

Mordicai — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:26:00 +0000

Oh, well, if there are problems we should totally stop trying to do the right thing. I mean, heck, injustice should be repaid with injustice or at least allowing injustice to stand. That is reasonable.

By: retepslluerb

retepslluerb — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 07:49:00 +0000

People are a replenishable resource. 30 years war, 2 World wars – yet there are more Europeans thans before.

But I wasn’t going at the moral thing in any case, but just the “economical” one. I don’t have to agree with their values to emphasize with them wanting to keep their values instead of a few bucks. These island may make economical use of tourism, but that doesn’t make them some theme park employees who best cater to rich Westener’s whims, if they don’t want to get fired.

By: AnthonyC

AnthonyC — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:52:00 +0000

I see what your getting at, but there’s a flaw in your reasoning. Munitions that kill people invariably reduce the size of your future market. You can sell people goods and services for their whole lives, but once you sell the weapon that kills them, that possibility vanishes. Not a good long term strategy.

More importantly, the two cases (persecution of a particular sexual orientation vs. abuse of deadly weapons) are not morally equivalent.

By: AnthonyC

AnthonyC — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:50:00 +0000

The word ‘buggery’ may be more specific, but in the US some sodomy laws (all struck down in 2003) had defined sodomy in ways that included oral sex.

By: AnthonyC

AnthonyC — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:48:00 +0000

I also noticed this bit about China in the wikipedia article: “The Chinese Supreme Court ruled in 1957 that voluntary sodomy was not a criminal act. Private sex in any form between two consenting adults does not violate laws.”

Note: It took the US supreme court until 2003 to reach that conclusion.

By: AnthonyC

AnthonyC — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:47:00 +0000

It seems they were charged with public indecency in addition to a specific charge of “buggery.”

The former carried a fine, which I think is entirely reasonable if they were outside, and not in their room. The latter is the one that merits discussion.

By: AnthonyC

AnthonyC — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:17:00 +0000

Because we have such a flawless record in our treatment of visitors from other countries?

By: retepslluerb

retepslluerb — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:29:00 +0000

It’s also commercially stupid not to sell mustard gas, ammunition and surveillance gear to oppressive regimes, yet I think people usually applaud when they government puts controls on that.

By: Bryan Arwood

Bryan Arwood — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 03:07:00 +0000

There were lots of Cock Tails going on that evening!

By: hostile_17

hostile_17 — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:36:00 +0000

Indeed. And besides, “sex between two men” is not “buggery” as the article says. Arguably sex between two men could not involve buggery (i.e. oral) and a man and a woman can carry out buggery.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 19:53:00 +0000

Removing all the gay-related parts of the news, this was a case of two people being charged with indecent exposure

Why would I remove the whole context of the incident? Remove the whole patriarchy thing in Saudi Arabia and women who are arrested for driving are just scofflaws.

Update: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/dennis-mayer-gay-cruise-dominca-arrested_n_1376368.html

“The total experience was horrendous,” he said. “They told us that they did not like us, that they did not like gay people.”…”He said: ‘You’re being arrested for being gay. We’re arresting you for the crime of buggery,’” Mayer said….During the interrogation, the police official threatened to take them to a clinic and have them medically examined for proof of homosexual activity, Mayer said. “He said, you know, we’re looking for specific things, fluids, bruising, things of that nature,” Mayer said.

“The treatment was inhumane,” Mayer said. “We were detained for approximately 26 hours, and 19 of those locked in a cement cell, which had no running water, no toilet, no lights. It stunk of feces and urine. It was infested with cockroaches, ants and bugs.” Mayer said police brought in government officials to look at them. “They paraded many people by to look in on us as if we were some type of animal, which was quite humiliating,” he said. “People got great joy in the pleasure of taunting us.”

On Thursday morning, police drove them to the courthouse in the capital of Roseau, passing through an angry crowd, Mayer said. “They were chanting and banging on the police vehicle. They were screaming things,” he said. “I’ve never seen anything like this in my life, other than in movies. Both my partner and I really feared for our safety.”

By: Ipo

Ipo — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 18:05:00 +0000

Mister44, how did you get on their balcony?

By: SomeGuyNamedMark

SomeGuyNamedMark — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:21:00 +0000

”Yup, shagging in front of people is just rude”

Not unless you paid the entrance fee and left your key in the basket

By: That_Anonymous_Coward

That_Anonymous_Coward — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:36:00 +0000

Vincent – Comparing a balcony attached to their room to a table in a restaurant…
We still are unsure if they were in the room with the blinds open during the sex, if they kissed on the balcony and forgot to close the shades or if they setup a sling and were having hardcore screaming sex on the balcony. The last one would be bad form, but without all the details everyone wants to just run with they were shooting porn on the balcony bent over the railing hooting and hollering…

Having been threatened for committing the atrocity of kissing someone I was dating in public, I just want more facts before I crucify people and just assume the absolute worst about them… but maybe I’m just to sensitive to that issue. People with ball bats make you worry…

By: Vincent

Vincent — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:26:00 +0000

Public sex is frowned upon, just like public nudity. You cannot seriously be arguing that I have to just look the other way if a couple is having sex at the table next to me at the restaurant.

By: Vincent

Vincent — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:19:00 +0000

Why should they not deserve to stay in business? Removing all the gay-related parts of the news, this was a case of two people being charged with indecent exposure, and has nothing to do with the cruise organizers.

By: phuzz

phuzz — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:45:00 +0000

Yup, shagging in front of people is just rude, I don’t think it should an arrestable offence, but it should be discouraged, there’s usually a bush or something you can hide behind.

(of course, I am being hypocritical here, but in my defence I was young then mmkay?)

By: Adam StJohn Lawrence

Adam StJohn Lawrence — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:19:00 +0000

Because I know Dominica, I think the gender of the couple is relevant.
I’ve had a family home in Dominica and stayed there several times. It is a wonderful country, exquisitely beautiful and the least spoiled island in the Caribbean. Jungles, volcanoes, waterfalls and deserted beaches – much of Pirates of the Caribbean was filmed there as it is so unchanged.
I thought of moving there, and even had the opportunity but decided against it.My reason? Many of the otherwise delightful people there are terrifyingly homophobic. While I was there once, a gay cruise had recently been refused permission to dock. I heard no-one criticise this decision, although the Island lives largely from cruise-ship income. Most thought it a splendid and worthy decision.It’s not only vile and objectionable, it’s also commercially stupid of the Island to present this ugly image. Several conservative churches are very powerful there. I wonder if there is a link? :(

By: Adam StJohn Lawrence

Adam StJohn Lawrence — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:07:00 +0000

Other way round, I believe.

By: cdh1971

cdh1971 — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 07:01:00 +0000

Did someone say ‘budgery’?

By: h4x0r

h4x0r — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:22:00 +0000

I don’t see the controversy here. I really don’t. I think trying to make it one, does this cause more harm than good.

About 6 years ago a co-worker of mine was arrested for shagging his best-friend’s sister on a cruise (Apparently, in plain view of curious onlookers). This isn’t exclusive to gay couples…..its more of a common sense/decency thing.

If you’re on your yacht sailing into the sunset I don’t see where you could go wrong but, who actually thinks it’s not going to bother anyone if you bump uglies in public? Gay or no….not a good idea unless you’re willing to accept the consequences and live with them (Something I admire in a person).

By: Preston Sturges

Preston Sturges — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:13:00 +0000

Unbelievable, right?

By: guanto

guanto — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:01:00 +0000

Dude, the only thing I replied to was the “don’t visit a country if there is backwards and barbaric legislation” stance. If you wanna go overboard and interpret the hell out of that, by all means, be my guest.

But hey, next time you are sentenced to death even though you’re innocent (oh right, you aren’t black!), tell me how highly you value the near-universal right to not be murdered by your own government (how’s that for “brutal?”). ”Join the ~~21st~~ 20th century” indeed.

Just to be extra-clear, both things are incredibly, horribly, unimaginably wrong. Not equating or excusing anything, just against unwarranted knee-jerking. If you want to visit a country, go there but be aware of local laws (even backwards ones); if you don’t wanna go, stay home. A BS holier-than-thou attitude doesn’t do anyone any good.

’nuff said.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:49:00 +0000

…just because there is a law you don’t like…

Nice equating of brutal repression of minorities with matters of personal taste.

By: guanto

guanto — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 04:52:00 +0000

No fallacy, thank you very much. Not dismissing anything; just because there is a law you don’t like (for good reasons, no doubt; valid concerns either way) doesn’t mean you can’t visit a place. That’s all I’m saying. And guess what, if I visit that unnamed country I’m not on equal footing with its citizens and don’t enjoy many constitutional rights but I don’t run around telling people to avoid that country. Perspective, people, perspective!

Edit: also, no stupid sodomy laws in my country, unlike a bunch of US states, so I’m the last one to condone that.

Context was: visiting a country as a foreigner. When in Rome…

Nice try though.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 04:48:00 +0000

Thanks for contributing an example of the Nirvana Fallacy, but you forgot to reference the genocide of Native Americans when you were dismissing the concerns of GLBT people who would like to have equal rights under the law.

By: guanto

guanto — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 04:40:00 +0000

Hm, dunno… I often visit an unnamed country that is stuck so far in the past it actually has laws on the books allowing them to sentence people to death and that has recently decided that habeas corpus is for wimps.

Every country is idiotic in its own way. I guess if you want to avoid other countries’ idiocies you’ll have to stay home in the familiar confines of your own country’s idiocies.

Overall traveling is very beneficial though, whether it’s for business or pleasure, so you just take the risk (at least I do).

By: yupgiboy

yupgiboy — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 04:24:00 +0000

What? No Cheech and Chong reference? “You ‘ave been charged with the ‘enious crime of buggery on the high seas!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNvbrRvQgmE&feature=player_detailpage#t=529s

By: Marc Mielke

Marc Mielke — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 03:59:00 +0000

I think one or the other (I want to say ‘buggery’) was a more inclusive charge that subsumed sex with animals as well, while the more tightly defined ‘sodomy’ was exclusively teh buttsex.

By: abstract_reg

abstract_reg — Fri, 23 Mar 2012 03:43:00 +0000

If Westboro members are having sex in public, then yes you can have them removed. If they picket a funeral in Canada they will be arrested. (They have been stopped at the border before.)