Comments on: Using math to get out of a traffic ticket http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:21:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Bill Heffner http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1401577 Bill Heffner Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1401577 That has actually been debunked. The court said that the ticked was dismissed not because of the paper but because the court determined that the cop was not positioned properly and did not have an adequate view of the intersection. That has actually been debunked. The court said that the ticked was dismissed not because of the paper but because the court determined that the cop was not positioned properly and did not have an adequate view of the intersection.

]]> By: Palomino http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1399150 Palomino Thu, 19 Apr 2012 03:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1399150 (Almost) every big rig driver knows about angular velocity &  linear velocity. No, not in those exact terms, but when idiots pull out or step in front of you (I drove and articulated bus), they think you're going 20 when you're really going 40. We call 'em suicide attempts.  Or "hey, that's a big bus, it must have BIG breaks, therefor it can stop faster." Or the person pushing a stroller, which dangles out in traffic. All they know is they are safe on the sidewalk, but have no idea something is sticking four feet out in front of them.  The city of Seattle's Metro Transit has an excellent class B licensing and training course. (Almost) every big rig driver knows about angular velocity &  linear velocity. No, not in those exact terms, but when idiots pull out or step in front of you (I drove and articulated bus), they think you’re going 20 when you’re really going 40. We call ‘em suicide attempts. 

Or “hey, that’s a big bus, it must have BIG breaks, therefor it can stop faster.”

Or the person pushing a stroller, which dangles out in traffic. All they know is they are safe on the sidewalk, but have no idea something is sticking four feet out in front of them. 

The city of Seattle’s Metro Transit has an excellent class B licensing and training course.

]]> By: heng http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398839 heng Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:11:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398839  I would argue the problem is a more related to poor transport planning. Too many cars is the *real* problem. I absolutely accept that cars distributed over the grid means no roads are stupidly busy, but I never was in a position where I felt I was away from cars. Even in London I feel that there is always a route I can take on a bike or foot that is largely away from cars, wherever I want to go.  I would argue the problem is a more related to poor transport planning. Too many cars is the *real* problem. I absolutely accept that cars distributed over the grid means no roads are stupidly busy, but I never was in a position where I felt I was away from cars. Even in London I feel that there is always a route I can take on a bike or foot that is largely away from cars, wherever I want to go.

]]> By: daen http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398481 daen Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:35:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398481 Yes, the assumption of symmetric deceleration and acceleration is just lazy, but still pretty much guaranteed to get past a non-mathematically savvy court.  I suspect they let him off simply because of the obscuring of the cop's field of view by the other car - I also suspect Dr K did coast through the intersection, given the rather extreme deceleration, short pause, and symmetrical extreme acceleration required for the illusion to hold ... Yes, the assumption of symmetric deceleration and acceleration is just lazy, but still pretty much guaranteed to get past a non-mathematically savvy court.  I suspect they let him off simply because of the obscuring of the cop’s field of view by the other car – I also suspect Dr K did coast through the intersection, given the rather extreme deceleration, short pause, and symmetrical extreme acceleration required for the illusion to hold …

]]> By: glatt1 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398358 glatt1 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398358  I agree with you that roundabouts are better than stop signs, but you are wrong about grid systems.  If you have a grid, you are correct that every branch is used for cut through traffic.  But because that traffic is spread out throughout the whole grid, no street is busy.  In fact, you can set low speed limits on each street, and still move cars more quickly than if you have separate developments connected by huge arteries.  Spend any time in a modern US suburb, and you will see how terribly congested roads can get when there is no grid and all cars must go out to the main road to go anywhere.  I agree with you that roundabouts are better than stop signs, but you are wrong about grid systems.  If you have a grid, you are correct that every branch is used for cut through traffic.  But because that traffic is spread out throughout the whole grid, no street is busy.  In fact, you can set low speed limits on each street, and still move cars more quickly than if you have separate developments connected by huge arteries.  Spend any time in a modern US suburb, and you will see how terribly congested roads can get when there is no grid and all cars must go out to the main road to go anywhere.

]]> By: Mark in CA http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398287 Mark in CA Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:00:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398287 This is mostly BS wrapped in a veneer of respectability.  The only part that may have worked in his favor is saying his car was not visible to the cop at the time he stopped.  I especially liked his description for estimating his rate of deceleration, saying that he sneezed at the moment he applied the brakes, therefore he assumed he stopped as quickly as possible.  Which also means he was not able to control where he stopped, and very likely did not stop at the stop line. This is mostly BS wrapped in a veneer of respectability.  The only part that may have worked in his favor is saying his car was not visible to the cop at the time he stopped.  I especially liked his description for estimating his rate of deceleration, saying that he sneezed at the moment he applied the brakes, therefore he assumed he stopped as quickly as possible.  Which also means he was not able to control where he stopped, and very likely did not stop at the stop line.

]]> By: Listener43 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398269 Listener43 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398269 ... and I was expecting the old Doppler  Effect idea that "the light looked green to me" excuse. It's always fun to calculate the speed required for that kind of blue-shift. … and I was expecting the old Doppler  Effect idea that “the light looked green to me” excuse. It’s always fun to calculate the speed required for that kind of blue-shift.

]]> By: AlexG55 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398128 AlexG55 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:44:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398128 When I first saw this story, I thought it was the more usual case of traffic-cop maths- "I had to do 80 mph to catch up with you, therefore you must have been speeding". When I first saw this story, I thought it was the more usual case of traffic-cop maths- “I had to do 80 mph to catch up with you, therefore you must have been speeding”.

]]> By: AlexG55 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398127 AlexG55 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:43:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398127 I think some states allow bicycles to treat stop signs as yield signs. I think some states allow bicycles to treat stop signs as yield signs.

]]> By: AlexG55 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398126 AlexG55 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:42:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398126 Here in the UK, we don't have very many stop signs. We have "Give Way" (yield) signs where in my experience there would be a stop sign in the US. Our roads are still relatively safe (I think safer than in the US). Checking that the way is clear does not always require you to bring the car to a complete stop. Especially if you're turning left (or right in countries that drive on the right), you only need to check for traffic in one lane, and it is often safe to do that while moving slowly. Here in the UK, we don’t have very many stop signs. We have “Give Way” (yield) signs where in my experience there would be a stop sign in the US. Our roads are still relatively safe (I think safer than in the US).
Checking that the way is clear does not always require you to bring the car to a complete stop. Especially if you’re turning left (or right in countries that drive on the right), you only need to check for traffic in one lane, and it is often safe to do that while moving slowly.

]]> By: heng http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398096 heng Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398096 Stop signs are one of the most annoying things about (the very limited set of which I have experience of) American roads. On the corner of *every* grid is a stop sign (or lights, which are even worse) and you *have* to stop. And this experience was primarily on a bike, which apparently are still required to stop. One really feels the energy wastage when cycling, so I can only guess at the total increase in the carbon footprint of the US of having soo many junctions and requiring every vehicle to stop at every one. I learned 2 things from this - (1) grid systems are stupid for if you don't want the world to be ruled by cars (every branch will get used, making every street a busy street) and (2) roundabouts are fantastic. Stop signs are one of the most annoying things about (the very limited set of which I have experience of) American roads. On the corner of *every* grid is a stop sign (or lights, which are even worse) and you *have* to stop. And this experience was primarily on a bike, which apparently are still required to stop. One really feels the energy wastage when cycling, so I can only guess at the total increase in the carbon footprint of the US of having soo many junctions and requiring every vehicle to stop at every one.

I learned 2 things from this – (1) grid systems are stupid for if you don’t want the world to be ruled by cars (every branch will get used, making every street a busy street) and (2) roundabouts are fantastic.

]]> By: MandoZink http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1398018 MandoZink Wed, 18 Apr 2012 05:36:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1398018 Using AutoCAD, I created a 4-panel PDF poster showing how a radar gun can double a speed reading a you near a stationary flat surface facing  your vehicle.  I used the published radar gun's operations and basic physics to show what actually happened to me while driving one night. Outside court, when the cop saw the rolled up drawings  (I had a detailed area contour map, too) he asked what they were.  I chuckled,  said "Just wait til we see the judge ", and walked away. After a few minutes in the courtroom, the cop walked in, whispered to the judge and left. He had told the judge to just drop the charges. Using AutoCAD, I created a 4-panel PDF poster showing how a radar gun can double a speed reading a you near a stationary flat surface facing  your vehicle.  I used the published radar gun’s operations and basic physics to show what actually happened to me while driving one night. Outside court, when the cop saw the rolled up drawings  (I had a detailed area contour map, too) he asked what they were.  I chuckled,  said “Just wait til we see the judge “, and walked away. After a few minutes in the courtroom, the cop walked in, whispered to the judge and left. He had told the judge to just drop the charges.

]]> By: jack http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397822 jack Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:15:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397822 Your calculus teacher should get a phd in physics... Your calculus teacher should get a phd in physics…

]]> By: tobergill http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397771 tobergill Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397771 I suspect that  "happened out of the cop's direct line of sight." has more bearing on this dismissal than fancy physics. How the heck does a cop testify to something he didn't see? I suspect that  “happened out of the cop’s direct line of sight.” has more bearing on this dismissal than fancy physics. How the heck does a cop testify to something he didn’t see?

]]> By: bcsizemo http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397769 bcsizemo Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397769 Actually looking at Wikipedia it basically states they don't take angle offsets into account: Mobile traffic enforcement radar must occupy a location above or to the side of the road, except when the roadway is occupied by only one vehicle. The user must understand trigonometry to "guess" vehicle speed as the direction changes while a single vehicle moves within the field of view when positioned adjacent to the roadway. Vehicle speed and radar measurement are rarely the same for this reason. I guess that explains the old 5mph over rule. Actually looking at Wikipedia it basically states they don’t take angle offsets into account:

Mobile traffic enforcement radar must occupy a location above or to the side of the road, except when the roadway is occupied by only one vehicle. The user must understand trigonometry to “guess” vehicle speed as the direction changes while a single vehicle moves within the field of view when positioned adjacent to the roadway. Vehicle speed and radar measurement are rarely the same for this reason.

I guess that explains the old 5mph over rule.

]]> By: ocker3 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397762 ocker3 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:42:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397762  Surely a radar gun could do the basic trig required to work out the vehicle's actual rate of movement?  Surely a radar gun could do the basic trig required to work out the vehicle’s actual rate of movement?

]]> By: schlocktober http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397700 schlocktober Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397700 I'm showing that to my algebra 1 class tomorrow! They won't get the trig, but they get $400. I’m showing that to my algebra 1 class tomorrow! They won’t get the trig, but they get $400.

]]> By: Roy Trumbull http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397679 Roy Trumbull Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397679 Something I expect to show up in a case before long involves the validity of video tape evidence shot as MPEG. Only the I frames are real complete snapshot like images. The B frames and the P frames are concocted from information in I frames. An attorney could blow this up and claim the entire image can't be used as evidence. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Something I expect to show up in a case before long involves the validity of video tape evidence shot as MPEG. Only the I frames are real complete snapshot like images. The B frames and the P frames are concocted from information in I frames. An attorney could blow this up and claim the entire image can’t be used as evidence. I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet.

]]> By: Rossi http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397658 Rossi Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397658 It can't be ignored that this paper was published on April 1. Although there doesn't seem to be any indication of shenanigans. I was curious enough to email Krioukov and he indicated that the court case was real. That's good enough for me. It can’t be ignored that this paper was published on April 1. Although there doesn’t seem to be any indication of shenanigans. I was curious enough to email Krioukov and he indicated that the court case was real. That’s good enough for me.

]]> By: robcat2075 http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397653 robcat2075 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:36:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397653 On the original forum one commenter notes that no evidence is provided that this incident ever happened and another notes that based on his own testimony he didn't actually stop long enough for a legal stop. On the original forum one commenter notes that no evidence is provided that this incident ever happened and another notes that based on his own testimony he didn’t actually stop long enough for a legal stop.

]]> By: Sam Douglas http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397637 Sam Douglas Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397637 (Submitted on 1 Apr 2012) (Submitted on 1 Apr 2012)

]]> By: dragonfrog http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397638 dragonfrog Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397638 Indeed, you should click through to look at the paper. Indeed, you should click through to look at the paper.

]]> By: Smash Martian http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397639 Smash Martian Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397639 Do you know how fast you were going, sir? No, but I can tell you where I was! Do you know how fast you were going, sir?
No, but I can tell you where I was!

]]> By: Joel Phillips http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397622 Joel Phillips Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:10:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397622 <blockquote>... he had a terrible cold that day, and one sneaky sneeze caused him to slam on the brakes hard as he approached the stop sign</blockquote>Given that he claims that he was stationary for a very short time this means that without the sneeze, he'd have gone through the stop sign.  Perhaps he should have been fined for driving without due care and attention?

… he had a terrible cold that day, and one sneaky sneeze caused him to slam on the brakes hard as he approached the stop sign

Given that he claims that he was stationary for a very short time this means that without the sneeze, he’d have gone through the stop sign.  Perhaps he should have been fined for driving without due care and attention?

]]> By: bcsizemo http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397590 bcsizemo Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397590 I've always wondered if radar guns have a way to compensate for the off angle axis to which many are used.. I’ve always wondered if radar guns have a way to compensate for the off angle axis to which many are used..

]]> By: macegr http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397591 macegr Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397591 If you didn't stop long enough to scan the whole intersection (about 2 seconds), you might as well have not stopped at all. Stop signs, at least, are one traffic rule that is almost purely about safety for drivers and pedestrians. You don't treat them as an arbitrary rule that you obey just enough to not get caught. They notify you that you need to check to make sure the way is clear, and that someone else isn't about to run a stop sign and hit you. If you didn’t stop long enough to scan the whole intersection (about 2 seconds), you might as well have not stopped at all. Stop signs, at least, are one traffic rule that is almost purely about safety for drivers and pedestrians. You don’t treat them as an arbitrary rule that you obey just enough to not get caught. They notify you that you need to check to make sure the way is clear, and that someone else isn’t about to run a stop sign and hit you.

]]> By: Warren_Terra http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397577 Warren_Terra Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397577 <blockquote>It's worth noting that this argument was good enough to get Krioukov out of a $400 fine.</blockquote>Really? Because while I follow the summary you provided (and haven't clicked through to look at the original), it seems to me that the driver indeed didn't accelerate towards the intersection, contrary to the cop's possible perception, but on the other hand the driver didn't stop at the sign long enough for the cop to notice, and their "rolling stop" probably <i>was</i> a moving violation.

It’s worth noting that this argument was good enough to get Krioukov out of a $400 fine.

Really? Because while I follow the summary you provided (and haven’t clicked through to look at the original), it seems to me that the driver indeed didn’t accelerate towards the intersection, contrary to the cop’s possible perception, but on the other hand the driver didn’t stop at the sign long enough for the cop to notice, and their “rolling stop” probably was a moving violation.

]]> By: Tanya Doroslovac http://boingboing.net/2012/04/17/using-math-to-get-out-of-a-tra.html#comment-1397570 Tanya Doroslovac Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=155148#comment-1397570 Ha! My calculus teacher told us about this way out of tickets in high school  - but I could never really remember the details. (Shocking.) Great to be reminded.  Ha! My calculus teacher told us about this way out of tickets in high school  - but I could never really remember the details. (Shocking.) Great to be reminded. 

]]>