I suppose it’s the large role Meredith played in bringing “Clockwork” to Broadway, after his success with “Ulysses in Nighttown” and “The Wake.” I must say, though, that Zero Mostel singing in NadSat remains a mind-blower.

The movie may be cold, strange, sharp, alienating, beautiful, bizarre, precise, it’s anything but shit.

That should give you some idea of where I rate the political status in the US.

I understand that from an American perspective we’re overgoverned. I saw the debate over health care in your country. I can live with your condescension.

So from the perspective of determinism it seems like free will is an illusion.

Oh, hang on, its heaps better. But still shit.

Anyway, back on topic, great book, shit movie, ’nuff said

From that very paranoid premise Burgess ramps it up to it’s most absurd extreme. Some people might find that an enjoyable ride but I didn’t.

History has proven Burgess’s paranoia wrong and the novel doesn’t have much merit other than opening a window into reactionary paranoia of it’s time.

As to Burgess explaining what his novel was about I thought books were supposed to speak for themselves.

For me, I want to make choices for reasons. The reasons are 1) the current structure of my mind and body as caused by previous choices and events, and 2) current sensory inputs. If past influences had been different, it is not so much that you would make a different decision, more that it would not be you making the decision. It would be someone else who, in the space of all possible persons, is relatively similar to you.

If this bothers you, or you refuse to call it free will, that is unfortunate, because it sounds like the thing you think you want isn’t possible even in principle. You exist within physics- the underlying rules of the universe, even if they include randomness, determine the actions of every bit of matter in your body, thus you. Even if you include “supernatural” interventions that act on whole complex entities like your mind, those too must be based on a rule or else be random. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM 

Punishment and rewards are terrible ways to enslave people and train them out of their intrinsic motivation. See Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn on how destructive this is to human beings and especially children.

And yes, it is the norm.

Also, do you act upon every single thought that happens to cross your mind? What other components are involved? What precedes them?Not arguing it is one way or another, just introducing another viewpoint, and reminding you that investigation is possible. 

But what happens before the appearance of the nerve impulses that make the meat twitch? If you say nothing, then I invite you to look further.

the concept of the “turning test” for AI works with us too: if you can’t tell the difference, how can it matter?

Just kidding obviously. However have you ever seen someone trained to work for a reward – say simple praise? It may be pavlovian but it’s not too bad. Trained to fear punishment, it’s awful.

The most disturbing part of the book besides the fact that Alex of the book raped two 12-year-old girls from the recordstore was the final chapter where Alex grew up, became a somewhat respectable adult with a job and a fiance! Regardless of if he was brainwashed at the Ludivigo center he was a biological clockwork machine programed to outgrow his rebellious criminal phase. That was disturbing.

It may misidentify how we outgrow criminality but it presented the cold truth that there is a surprising lack of justice in the world and that lack of justice might not mater.

So, the brain triggers the actions, and it is made up of cells, and cells have DNA, and “outside experience can also play a role” means there is no free will? I don’t think we are defining free will the same way. Which is fine, but not worth typing a bunch of stuff the mods will just delete later anyway.

That’s 26 words for Burgess

In a way, what he is saying is that there is something fundamentally wrong in turning a man into a thing. The meaning is very simply expressed in the words of the title. Who is it wrong FOR – everyone.

That’s 40 words for you, Kemosabe.

Also, Burgess is also up on the scorecard by “1 world-changing book”. So I think he wins this round hands down. If you really want a win against him, you could probably dig him up and armwrestle him. I think when it comes to writing things, Burgess will beat you for the rest of your life.

So to speak.