Comments on: Neal Stephenson kickstarts realistic swordfighting game

By: krazmo

krazmo — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:08:00 +0000

Don’t feed the troll

By: Tynam

Tynam — Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:44:00 +0000

I agree completely, and I made the same assumption when I first saw it. But… Kinect is laggy, and has no haptic feedback at all. The lag is trivial in a dance game, mildy annoying in adventure… and almost certainly crippling for martial arts.

By: Ultan

Ultan — Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:32:00 +0000

I designed a haptic sword controller in 1995. There were no cheap accelerometers or gyros then – it relied on a proof-mass and conductive foam bits for the accelerometers and sensing a fixed magnetic field for the gyro-equivalents. The feedback was to be through vibration – a piezo for the small/fast vibrations and a solenoid for the hits. I also considered using a Duck-Hunter style optical system for the fine motion control and really wanted a high RPM reaction gyro set to simulate the mass of the sword, but that would have made it too expensive. I’m sure that making something good enough for cheap enough is much easier today.

By: Dan Hibiki

Dan Hibiki — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:21:00 +0000

anyone see Tristram Shandy: A Cock and Bull Story? It’s like that war choreography scene.You’ll get the players excited with the idea of watching Guts go up against Vlad Tepes but end up with a boring lecture on how great swords are traditionally used to disarm pole-arms.

By: agreenster

agreenster — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:20:00 +0000

Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword already does this pretty effectively. Although theres no multiplayer option. But the gameplay/sword combat is pretty great and satisfying

By: Zapbeeb

Zapbeeb — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:13:00 +0000

Yep, i loved Die By the Sword, i’m surprised it has not been cited before.
Chopping heads and limbs was quite fun, even if a little frustrating.
It will be interesting to see what they will do with modern technologies.

By: SamSam

SamSam — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:00 +0000

Looking at all the body movements involved in the real sword fighting in his video, I can’t understand why they don’t seem to be going with Kinect as the technology for reading sword position, instead of the simple wii-style accelerometer in the “sword” handle.

Advantages:
- Whole body movement. Duck or sidestep by actually moving, instead of pushing buttons
- Use your other hand for a shield or to push the opponent
- You could actually integrate a full-length (plastic or foam) sword, so that a player with a long sword will swipe more slowly than a player with a short sword
- Much more accurate sword position calculation, instead of merely guessing by the accelerometer

This whole thing seems absolutely made for kinect. Using an accelerometer alone seems to negate everything that Stephen says about realism — how are you going to move around, if not by button presses?

(I donated $25 anyway.)

By: Sparrow

Sparrow — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:11:00 +0000

Not pipe, rebar. This is the author of Snow Crash we’re talking about.

By: Charlie B

Charlie B — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:39:00 +0000

Right, but it would be so much vastly better than what passes for swordfighting games today. I am reasonably good with a sword, after more than three decades of practice, but any tyro can beat me at the Wii swordfighting game, as long as they are gleefully unburdened by any understanding of how a sword actually behaves. In that game, the less you know the better off you are. Adding any trace of realism would be nice!

Of course the Holy Grail of simulated combat would be a game that realistically simulated the behaviour of an axe. No system has achieved this – not SCA, Markland, NF&PS, Dagohir, nobody. There are things you can do with an axe, like hack through a shield and shatter the arm under it (or cleave through a blocking blade, helmet and head with a single blow) that remain unsimulated in any combat sport I’ve tried (and I’ve tried a lot). Back in the day we used to do tests with real helmets & breastplates, and believe me axes can deliver vastly more power than any sword. Spears are impressive, too – you can poke a good spear through 12 gauge steel – but they get stuck and/or snapped off much easier than axes do.

You could weight and shape the controllers, but cheating’s going to be a big problem.

By: Florian Bösch

Florian Bösch — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:43:00 +0000

Only US-residents can make Kickstarter campaigns. The payment service (amazon payments) that Kickstarter uses, you cannot sign up to receive money with it as a non US-resident.

By: Amelia_G

Amelia_G — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:38:00 +0000

Kickstarter geht nicht in der Schweiz?! Wieso/pourquoi?

By: Florian Bösch

Florian Bösch — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 08:58:00 +0000

Cool idea, saw the campaign yesterday. And if Kickstarter was available where I live (Switzerland) I’d maybe think about supporting.

So sorry Neal, if you’re looking for funding on a platform that excludes me, though luck. But you might want to try Rockethub, IndieGoGo, Buzz Bank, etc.

By: andygates

andygates — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 08:51:00 +0000

Could this be the swordfighting (lightsaber-duelling?) arena game I’ve been waiting for since the Wii came out? And then since the Wii Motion Plus came out? And then…

ohpleaseohpleaseohplease

By: Rindan

Rindan — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:30:00 +0000

You could call modern shooters “realistic”. Are they truly realistic? Not really. They incorporate a lot of elements of realism though. The gun kicks, you have different sites, cover has meaning, and in general good coordinated tactics (at least in some games) will rule the day. It isn’t perfect realism and doesn’t try to be, but it hits the high points.

Games with melee weapons hit no high points, which is his point. I don’t think they are going for perfect realism. I think they are going to try and get it to be the point where they are like shooters and are at least interesting. Melee combat is dull right now.

If some day they get it good enough that it is an accurate simulation with a motion controller… awesome! You might find the idea of sweating your ass while wildly swinging about in your underwear to be horrible, but that sounds bad ass to me. It beats the shit out of Wii tennis, if nothing else.

Hell, a total jerk off fantasy for me is an MMORPG which trashes stats and just uses motion controllers. Getting a workout while slaying hordes sounds bad ass.

By: Rindan

Rindan — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:18:00 +0000

He wrote Snow Crash in 1992. You are either a moron or were born sometime after the 80s and have an utterly delusional concept of technological progression. He wrote Snow Crash before Windows 3.1 was released. The world wide web literally did not fucking exist and modems were rocking 2400 baud. I can’t even find an internet usage before 1995 because the numbers were so small. Doom hadn’t yet come out and Wolfenstine 3d was released the same year as the book.

You don’t have to like Neal Stephenson’s writing, but you have to be a moron to point to Snow Crash and declare that be a me too book pandering to “current tastes”.

By: Eric Hunting

Eric Hunting — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 05:32:00 +0000

Two words: Bartitsu module…

By: freefall127

freefall127 — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 04:17:00 +0000

they’ll probably develop away to put motion censors in a punching bag and on a weighted weapon so that the game could model your motions and those of the bag or possibly an opponent.

By: copperwatt

copperwatt — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 03:51:00 +0000

Yeah, controller vs keyboard/mouse is debatable, and I have never owned a modern console so I never got used to a controller. However, both control options are nearly equidistant from the movements associated with actually running/shooting. Swinging a controller is far closer to swinging a sword. The shooter equivalent would be a light gun. Why are those not more popular? Is it the character movement control problem? I.e., how do you run/turn?

As another example, does anyone have experience with motion control tennis vs traditional controller tennis games? That seems closer to sword fighting than any other game I can think of.

By: Mister44

Mister44 — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 02:26:00 +0000

THIS – but with light sabers.

By: Daemonworks

Daemonworks — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 23:52:00 +0000

For me the magic-enchantment method of customization that he dismisses is exactly what I’m interested in. If I wanted realism, I’d just go out and learn to do this stuff in real life.

That said, I do know some people who’d love that sort of realism in a game, provided it was well handled.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:03:00 +0000

Michelle’s reach might be longer, but Hillary’s scrappy.

By: hughstimson

hughstimson — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:21:00 +0000

I don’t think the goal here is to exactly recreate the experience of sword fighting in your living room. I suspect it’s to make a much better sword fighting game than currently exists.

If it succeeds on the latter criteria I believe I will find it in my heart to forgive it for failing on the former.

By: ROSSINDETROIT

ROSSINDETROIT — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:21:00 +0000

It would be slightly more realistic if the controller was built into a 48″ section of iron pipe. But then people would cheat. And how about a feedback jacket that hit you with a Taser shock when your opponent landed a blow.

By: edgarhjelte

edgarhjelte — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:02:00 +0000

Also, if it’s realism you’re after you need a way to conway pain, fear and exhaustion into the player’s mind. A real sword fight would be just as much about those factors as about equipment and fighting style. You can’t really separate them. Swinging a plastic stick in your boxer shorts, possibly risking the death of your character, and pausing to grab a hamburger when you like to, has little in common with charging over your dead comrades across a battlefield, wearing heavy armour and a heavy sword, possibly nearly starved and knowing this may very well be your last day on Earth. Until we can stick a cord into the player’s head and fool the brain completely we will merely be playing games, and games usually have fun as the primary goal. For some, this fun may involve “historical accuracy” in some way, but don’t sell it as realism. Personally I very much prefer credibility as a goal, rather than realism.

Maybe they can make some fun out of the swinging of plastic sticks, but I fear it will just be another Wii game, possibly with a flavour of Die by the sword, which incidentally was a kind of cool game.

By: Jaime Colin Allsup

Jaime Colin Allsup — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:37:00 +0000

Yep, that Neal Stephenson. Pandering to ‘current’ tastes with Snow Crash, published 1992. Almost as cutting edge as your spin on what’s current today. Oh, cutting edge. See what I did there?

By: ROSSINDETROIT

ROSSINDETROIT — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:08:00 +0000

When you say swordfighting game, you actually mean swordfighting video game or computer game, right? How could that possibly be detailed and faithful, except in a relative sense? One style of flapping your arms in your living room may be more realistic than another, but none of them is at all like skydiving.
And don’t get me wrong, I love Stephenson and have read everything he has in print. His fight scenes are the best. Even the last 100 pages of Reamde. But a computer game about swordfighting is a computer game, not a swordfighting game.

By: Amelia_G

Amelia_G — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:53:00 +0000

Have a “heavy” game mode where the player can duct-tape the controller to a heavy stick, getting the same workout described for Hiro Protagonist using rebar.

By: Amelia_G

Amelia_G — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:42:00 +0000

Neal Stephenson is a wonderful communicator, a great observer, good at analysis, telling stories, making use of the Pepys diary… why does he feel so separate from humans? Humans are fun.
I’m so grateful to him for his books, which amuse and instruct.

By: Robert Baruch

Robert Baruch — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:04:00 +0000

It would be fun to strap the controller to a bokken. Not so much fun for the lamps and furniture around you, nor the ceiling, but hey, innovation has its price.

By: Robert Baruch

Robert Baruch — Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:02:00 +0000

Iaido is all about attacking an imaginary opponent by means of a sword, and I’ve never had a problem with my opponent being imaginary. To be good at it, you do have to almost convince yourself that the opponent is real, but that’s what video games are about.