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	<title>Comments on: Counterpoint: algorithms are not free&#160;speech</title>
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		<title>By: karger</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1458845</link>
		<dc:creator>karger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1458845</guid>
		<description>If you accept that Google&#039;s search results &quot;inherit&quot; the free speech rights of their creator, doesn&#039;t that same argument mean that they inherit the *copyright* protections of their creator?  That would seem to be a problem. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you accept that Google&#8217;s search results &#8220;inherit&#8221; the free speech rights of their creator, doesn&#8217;t that same argument mean that they inherit the *copyright* protections of their creator?  That would seem to be a problem. </p>
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		<title>By: WhyBother</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1457625</link>
		<dc:creator>WhyBother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1457625</guid>
		<description>Exactly right. People have rights. People use tools to do things. When that thing is a form of protected speech, then it is reasonable to protect a tool doing (or being used to do) such a thing, because you&#039;re really talking about protecting the rights of the people behind the tool.

When a person uses a bullhorn to speak, it is protected because the speech is protected. When a person uses a transmission over rented public airwaves (which may be a newscast, commercial, etc.) that is protected speech. When a group of people band together to propagate their political opinions with action (as in a PAC or Super-PAC), it is protected speech. When a group of people banded together for other purposes (a corporation) find it necessary to also issue statements as a group through that body, it is protected speech. When a person uses his biases to program an algorithm to construct a corpus of opinions (which what Google argues it does) it is protected speech. It is in general an incorrect, artificial distinction to think there are somehow directed forces at work in society that don&#039;t ultimately trace back to the will (and invested rights) of some human persons. And while those forces may act in fashions that would be consider peculiar coming from a singular person, they are none the less the acts of people in the composite.

No one is debating for the right of tools. They are debating the rights of those who craft and use tools. The argument is that if algorithmic output is considered speech, it will be difficult to rein in anti-competitive and privacy-violating &quot;speech.&quot; And it will. Rights are tricky that way. But if the exact same output came from a human compiling it &quot;the hard way,&quot; it would be entitled to protections (and in the case of illegal acts, lack of protection). The output of a computer is not different from the output of a human. It is the same, only moreso. That is the function of a computer: to rapidly, blindly do exactly what some human at some point told it to do. And when that directive is something illegal, it should be just as illegal to do with a computer as without. But not more illegal. And when the thing being done by a human is protected, the same work done by a computer should similarly be protected.

At it&#039;s core, the argument dovetails two classic fallacies of policy: &quot;people can abuse rights and so we should be skeptical about recognizing them too freely&quot; and &quot;technology is scary powerful and so we need to regulate it separately from allother human endeavors&quot;.  While the premises are both true, in their fashion, the propositions are nothing but reactionary panic. Technology is mostly irrelevant to the laws touching on fundamental rights: murder with a handgun is basically &quot;just&quot; murder. Speech over radio transmission is just speech. Thought assisted by an algorithm is just thought. And it&#039;s a little sad that we&#039;re going to spend the better part of a century or two on the grind work of re-affirming all of this legally, one right at a time, one shiny new toy at a time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly right. People have rights. People use tools to do things. When that thing is a form of protected speech, then it is reasonable to protect a tool doing (or being used to do) such a thing, because you&#8217;re really talking about protecting the rights of the people behind the tool.</p>
<p>When a person uses a bullhorn to speak, it is protected because the speech is protected. When a person uses a transmission over rented public airwaves (which may be a newscast, commercial, etc.) that is protected speech. When a group of people band together to propagate their political opinions with action (as in a PAC or Super-PAC), it is protected speech. When a group of people banded together for other purposes (a corporation) find it necessary to also issue statements as a group through that body, it is protected speech. When a person uses his biases to program an algorithm to construct a corpus of opinions (which what Google argues it does) it is protected speech. It is in general an incorrect, artificial distinction to think there are somehow directed forces at work in society that don&#8217;t ultimately trace back to the will (and invested rights) of some human persons. And while those forces may act in fashions that would be consider peculiar coming from a singular person, they are none the less the acts of people in the composite.</p>
<p>No one is debating for the right of tools. They are debating the rights of those who craft and use tools. The argument is that if algorithmic output is considered speech, it will be difficult to rein in anti-competitive and privacy-violating &#8220;speech.&#8221; And it will. Rights are tricky that way. But if the exact same output came from a human compiling it &#8220;the hard way,&#8221; it would be entitled to protections (and in the case of illegal acts, lack of protection). The output of a computer is not different from the output of a human. It is the same, only moreso. That is the function of a computer: to rapidly, blindly do exactly what some human at some point told it to do. And when that directive is something illegal, it should be just as illegal to do with a computer as without. But not more illegal. And when the thing being done by a human is protected, the same work done by a computer should similarly be protected.</p>
<p>At it&#8217;s core, the argument dovetails two classic fallacies of policy: &#8220;people can abuse rights and so we should be skeptical about recognizing them too freely&#8221; and &#8220;technology is scary powerful and so we need to regulate it separately from allother human endeavors&#8221;.  While the premises are both true, in their fashion, the propositions are nothing but reactionary panic. Technology is mostly irrelevant to the laws touching on fundamental rights: murder with a handgun is basically &#8220;just&#8221; murder. Speech over radio transmission is just speech. Thought assisted by an algorithm is just thought. And it&#8217;s a little sad that we&#8217;re going to spend the better part of a century or two on the grind work of re-affirming all of this legally, one right at a time, one shiny new toy at a time.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie B</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1457321</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1457321</guid>
		<description> Yes, but your simple and practical solution does not offer opportunity for political axe-grinding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Yes, but your simple and practical solution does not offer opportunity for political axe-grinding.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie B</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1457319</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1457319</guid>
		<description> Restricting the vote for time-tested practical reasons never sits well with the Mobbe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Restricting the vote for time-tested practical reasons never sits well with the Mobbe.</p>
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		<title>By: retepslluerb</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1457179</link>
		<dc:creator>retepslluerb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1457179</guid>
		<description>This would be the case if American legal precedents were all that counted and would never get toppled by later rulings or even taken care of by an amendment.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This would be the case if American legal precedents were all that counted and would never get toppled by later rulings or even taken care of by an amendment.  </p>
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		<title>By: retepslluerb</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1457177</link>
		<dc:creator>retepslluerb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1457177</guid>
		<description>Actually, I&#039;m all for dropping it to zero.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I&#8217;m all for dropping it to zero.   </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M. Kuipers</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1457161</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M. Kuipers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1457161</guid>
		<description>Your forum post is the output of source code (albeit influenced by you tapping at a few bits of plastic); should its content not be protected?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your forum post is the output of source code (albeit influenced by you tapping at a few bits of plastic); should its content not be protected?</p>
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		<title>By: RichG2012</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456880</link>
		<dc:creator>RichG2012</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456880</guid>
		<description>Source code could qualify as protected speech under some set of circumstances, but the output of that source code should not be. Seems pretty simple to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Source code could qualify as protected speech under some set of circumstances, but the output of that source code should not be. Seems pretty simple to me.</p>
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		<title>By: stephenl123</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456823</link>
		<dc:creator>stephenl123</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456823</guid>
		<description>It seems like algorithm vs. not-algorithm is the wrong place to draw the line.  But in any case, something can&#039;t be both safe-harbor AND free speech.  Either it&#039;s one or it&#039;s the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like algorithm vs. not-algorithm is the wrong place to draw the line.  But in any case, something can&#8217;t be both safe-harbor AND free speech.  Either it&#8217;s one or it&#8217;s the other.</p>
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		<title>By: phaedral</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456820</link>
		<dc:creator>phaedral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456820</guid>
		<description>Does a bullhorn have free speech rights? Neither does an algorithm. Neither, in a reasonable legal milieu, does a corporation. The court flatly botched Citizen&#039;s United. Corporations, like algorithms, like bullhorns, are tools, not entities. Tools don&#039;t have rights, people do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does a bullhorn have free speech rights? Neither does an algorithm. Neither, in a reasonable legal milieu, does a corporation. The court flatly botched Citizen&#8217;s United. Corporations, like algorithms, like bullhorns, are tools, not entities. Tools don&#8217;t have rights, people do.</p>
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		<title>By: abstract_reg</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456774</link>
		<dc:creator>abstract_reg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456774</guid>
		<description>But programs aren&#039;t exactly speech are they? A programmer who designs a computer virus and sets it free on the world is analogous to a bomb maker designing a bomb and then letting it explode. Neither are considered acts of speech. 
On the other hand a video game is the culmination of a number of creative decisions made by individuals or groups. Video games seem very much like &quot;speech&quot; to me. Where is the line between virus and video game?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But programs aren&#8217;t exactly speech are they? A programmer who designs a computer virus and sets it free on the world is analogous to a bomb maker designing a bomb and then letting it explode. Neither are considered acts of speech.<br />
On the other hand a video game is the culmination of a number of creative decisions made by individuals or groups. Video games seem very much like &#8220;speech&#8221; to me. Where is the line between virus and video game?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Roboto</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456773</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Roboto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456773</guid>
		<description> Thanks!  For some reason I thought it was 24 hours and I wouldn&#039;t have guessed Warhol. What little I know of Warhol comes from accounts of Patti Smith and the like, and I seem to remember he would occasionally play films continuously as a sort of backdrop for a party. I seem to remember Ken Kesey using film in the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Thanks!  For some reason I thought it was 24 hours and I wouldn&#8217;t have guessed Warhol. What little I know of Warhol comes from accounts of Patti Smith and the like, and I seem to remember he would occasionally play films continuously as a sort of backdrop for a party. I seem to remember Ken Kesey using film in the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: B E Pratt</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456733</link>
		<dc:creator>B E Pratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456733</guid>
		<description> A little pedantic here, but in Mary Shelley&#039;s book the Monster was given life through occult methods that were never spelled out. It was the movie that used electricity. Much more spectacular on the screen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> A little pedantic here, but in Mary Shelley&#8217;s book the Monster was given life through occult methods that were never spelled out. It was the movie that used electricity. Much more spectacular on the screen.</p>
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		<title>By: B E Pratt</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456726</link>
		<dc:creator>B E Pratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 13:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456726</guid>
		<description> You are thinking of &#039;Empire&#039;, the 8 hr 5 min, b&amp;w film by (or at least attributed to) Andy Warhol. Yep, it&#039;s just a single stationary long take of the Empire State Building. Possibly there are people who have watched this in its entirety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> You are thinking of &#8216;Empire&#8217;, the 8 hr 5 min, b&amp;w film by (or at least attributed to) Andy Warhol. Yep, it&#8217;s just a single stationary long take of the Empire State Building. Possibly there are people who have watched this in its entirety.</p>
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		<title>By: cmholm</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456672</link>
		<dc:creator>cmholm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 06:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456672</guid>
		<description>This isn&#039;t that hard. Programming is speech. The programMER has the same rights and responsibilities when expressing herself in code as in - say - British Sign Language. The computer the resulting program runs on has no more hint of volition and independent agency than a typewriter or megaphone. 

That out of the way, a program can be protected speech, depending on what it is expressing. Again, this doesn&#039;t have to be that difficult, unless a series of judges create a body of Anglo-Saxon legal precedence that *makes* it difficult.

Finally, the Frankenstein monster would have as many rights and responsibilities as any other brain-damaged individual. It is - according to the written canon - flesh and blood and human DNA through and through. That it got a bit of a jump start to reanimate holds no more legal meaning than if I was defibrillated. The most interesting question is which part of it has rights to its legal estate... and I&#039;m pretty sure a court would go with the provenance of the brain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn&#8217;t that hard. Programming is speech. The programMER has the same rights and responsibilities when expressing herself in code as in &#8211; say &#8211; British Sign Language. The computer the resulting program runs on has no more hint of volition and independent agency than a typewriter or megaphone. </p>
<p>That out of the way, a program can be protected speech, depending on what it is expressing. Again, this doesn&#8217;t have to be that difficult, unless a series of judges create a body of Anglo-Saxon legal precedence that *makes* it difficult.</p>
<p>Finally, the Frankenstein monster would have as many rights and responsibilities as any other brain-damaged individual. It is &#8211; according to the written canon &#8211; flesh and blood and human DNA through and through. That it got a bit of a jump start to reanimate holds no more legal meaning than if I was defibrillated. The most interesting question is which part of it has rights to its legal estate&#8230; and I&#8217;m pretty sure a court would go with the provenance of the brain.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M. Kuipers</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456665</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M. Kuipers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 06:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456665</guid>
		<description>Again, what of the humans that fail to construct a cogent argument for their own freedom of speech? If an entity&#039;s rights are predicated on their passing the Turing test, then it must be that all entities eligible for these rights are put through the test; it would be pointless to subject only algorithms to the Turing test, as it would be rather obvious that the participant is an algorithm (which is, of course, the entire point of this test).

Further, there is the question of what a right is; if it is dependent on success within a test, it is neither innate nor inalienable, and therefore not exactly a right, but rather a privilege.

Finally, there is the question of the efficacy of the Turing test itself, as it is ultimately subjective upon the tester; my stringency in requirements for accepting patterns of input and output as representing sentience may be more or less demanding than yours, so how does this really say anything categorical about sentience?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, what of the humans that fail to construct a cogent argument for their own freedom of speech? If an entity&#8217;s rights are predicated on their passing the Turing test, then it must be that all entities eligible for these rights are put through the test; it would be pointless to subject only algorithms to the Turing test, as it would be rather obvious that the participant is an algorithm (which is, of course, the entire point of this test).</p>
<p>Further, there is the question of what a right is; if it is dependent on success within a test, it is neither innate nor inalienable, and therefore not exactly a right, but rather a privilege.</p>
<p>Finally, there is the question of the efficacy of the Turing test itself, as it is ultimately subjective upon the tester; my stringency in requirements for accepting patterns of input and output as representing sentience may be more or less demanding than yours, so how does this really say anything categorical about sentience?</p>
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		<title>By: Jake0748</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456650</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake0748</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 05:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456650</guid>
		<description> Of COURSE there are limits. Perhaps not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.  But freedom of speech has never been an absolute.  An ideal which we all love and want to defend... yes.  A total absolute, unquestioned right?  Nope.  (Check out libel, slander, hate speech, etc.). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Of COURSE there are limits. Perhaps not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.  But freedom of speech has never been an absolute.  An ideal which we all love and want to defend&#8230; yes.  A total absolute, unquestioned right?  Nope.  (Check out libel, slander, hate speech, etc.). </p>
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		<title>By: Jake0748</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456649</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake0748</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 04:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456649</guid>
		<description> That is a risk I&#039;m willing to take, for now.  Ask me again in a decade or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> That is a risk I&#8217;m willing to take, for now.  Ask me again in a decade or so.</p>
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		<title>By: paulj</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456646</link>
		<dc:creator>paulj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 04:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456646</guid>
		<description>The Turing Test part comes when the algorithm tries to sustain an argument to support the request.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Turing Test part comes when the algorithm tries to sustain an argument to support the request.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin F</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456577</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 01:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456577</guid>
		<description>We should move to universal suffrage for adult members of society (who have not been ruled incompetent).  That legal residents in good standing must live and die according to rules they have no say in, but which privileged members of society can vote on, is no different from denying the vote to any other segment of society, such as women or non-land-owners. Frankenstein&#039;s monster can&#039;t vote as long as the members of society who happen to be privileged with the &quot;right&quot; parents or paperwork (citizenship) are the only segment of the community allowed to vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should move to universal suffrage for adult members of society (who have not been ruled incompetent).  That legal residents in good standing must live and die according to rules they have no say in, but which privileged members of society can vote on, is no different from denying the vote to any other segment of society, such as women or non-land-owners. Frankenstein&#8217;s monster can&#8217;t vote as long as the members of society who happen to be privileged with the &#8220;right&#8221; parents or paperwork (citizenship) are the only segment of the community allowed to vote.</p>
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		<title>By: SKR</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456570</link>
		<dc:creator>SKR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 00:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456570</guid>
		<description>Actually, you are absolutely allowed to cry &quot;fire&quot; in a crowded theater. What you are not allowed to do is fraudulently cry &quot;fire&quot; in a crowded theater with the intent to cause panic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you are absolutely allowed to cry &#8220;fire&#8221; in a crowded theater. What you are not allowed to do is fraudulently cry &#8220;fire&#8221; in a crowded theater with the intent to cause panic.</p>
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		<title>By: Nonentity</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456569</link>
		<dc:creator>Nonentity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 00:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456569</guid>
		<description> Part of why it doesn&#039;t seem right is that it&#039;s hard to imagine an argument about a camera in regards to freedom of speech.  Copyright is easier, but I&#039;m sure even that would run into some interesting arguments in the case of a public, uncontrolled webcam.

In regards to speech and algorithms, I have to wonder if the argument from Google&#039;s side (as restated in various articles) isn&#039;t putting the cart before the horse.  I can see Google&#039;s output being speech, not because programmers are putting creativity into the algorithm, but because Google wants to claim it as its speech.  Just being the output of an autonomous thing they created shouldn&#039;t make it speech.

Of course, that depends on Google going all the way with claiming it as their speech.  To do that, they should be fully responsible for anything that comes out, and they can&#039;t just shrug and say &quot;oh, that wacky algorithm!&quot;  They should be just as responsible for the algorithm&#039;s results as they would be for statements coming from their employees.  I somehow don&#039;t get the sense that this is what&#039;s desired, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Part of why it doesn&#8217;t seem right is that it&#8217;s hard to imagine an argument about a camera in regards to freedom of speech.  Copyright is easier, but I&#8217;m sure even that would run into some interesting arguments in the case of a public, uncontrolled webcam.</p>
<p>In regards to speech and algorithms, I have to wonder if the argument from Google&#8217;s side (as restated in various articles) isn&#8217;t putting the cart before the horse.  I can see Google&#8217;s output being speech, not because programmers are putting creativity into the algorithm, but because Google wants to claim it as its speech.  Just being the output of an autonomous thing they created shouldn&#8217;t make it speech.</p>
<p>Of course, that depends on Google going all the way with claiming it as their speech.  To do that, they should be fully responsible for anything that comes out, and they can&#8217;t just shrug and say &#8220;oh, that wacky algorithm!&#8221;  They should be just as responsible for the algorithm&#8217;s results as they would be for statements coming from their employees.  I somehow don&#8217;t get the sense that this is what&#8217;s desired, however.</p>
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		<title>By: knappa</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456565</link>
		<dc:creator>knappa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 00:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456565</guid>
		<description>There are no such limitations in the text:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are no such limitations in the text:</p>
<blockquote><p>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Lee Dannascher</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456562</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Dannascher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 00:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456562</guid>
		<description>not to be inflammatory, (and there&#039;s some big jumps here, but i think they&#039;re reasonable) but aren&#039;t we talking about patenting life itself and isn&#039;t that tantamount to slavery?

Comeon, man. information wants to be free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>not to be inflammatory, (and there&#8217;s some big jumps here, but i think they&#8217;re reasonable) but aren&#8217;t we talking about patenting life itself and isn&#8217;t that tantamount to slavery?</p>
<p>Comeon, man. information wants to be free.</p>
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		<title>By: Antinous / Moderator</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456549</link>
		<dc:creator>Antinous / Moderator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456549</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d consider the average fourteen year-old to be as capable of making a rational decision as the average 84 year-old.  We should drop the voting age to fourteen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d consider the average fourteen year-old to be as capable of making a rational decision as the average 84 year-old.  We should drop the voting age to fourteen.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M. Kuipers</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456545</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M. Kuipers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456545</guid>
		<description> printf(&quot;Please give me the right to freedom of speech&quot;);</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> printf(&#8220;Please give me the right to freedom of speech&#8221;);</p>
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		<title>By: paulj</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456538</link>
		<dc:creator>paulj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456538</guid>
		<description>Or a slightly more stringent version of the Turing Test: grant free speech rights if the algorithm asks for them, having reasoned that it needs them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or a slightly more stringent version of the Turing Test: grant free speech rights if the algorithm asks for them, having reasoned that it needs them.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M. Kuipers</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456533</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M. Kuipers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456533</guid>
		<description> And if a human fails the Turing Test, revoke it! :]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> And if a human fails the Turing Test, revoke it! :]</p>
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		<title>By: jwkrk</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456531</link>
		<dc:creator>jwkrk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456531</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m thinking the Turing Test might be invoked.  If the algorithm passes the Turing Test, grant it free speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m thinking the Turing Test might be invoked.  If the algorithm passes the Turing Test, grant it free speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M. Kuipers</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2012/06/22/counterpoint-algorithms-are-n.html#comment-1456524</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M. Kuipers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=167271#comment-1456524</guid>
		<description> I agree, google is a tool similar to any other service. Like a bank that is used to hold embezzled funds, it is not the service provider but rather the user that is responsible for their actions that make use of the service. However, tracing culpability in more traditional services appears to be far easier than it is with services operating in the realm of pseudo-anonymity. 

If I&#039;m one of a million people who are responsible for, say, a hate speech site being given high preference by a search algorithm with relation to a particular benign term, and the only evidence linking me to this action is pseudo-anonymous IP address, how can I practically be brought to bear responsibility (along with the other 999,999 people) for the results of my actions? It is naturally much easier to blame the service provider for allowing such an action to happen in the first place.

If we don&#039;t want our service providers to bear the responsibility for the actions of its users, then it seems to require a dissolution of the veil of anonymity that we&#039;ve become accustomed to on this wild wild web. Not that I&#039;m necessarily advocating for this, but rather I think the trade-offs between anonymity and proper culpability need to be seriously considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> I agree, google is a tool similar to any other service. Like a bank that is used to hold embezzled funds, it is not the service provider but rather the user that is responsible for their actions that make use of the service. However, tracing culpability in more traditional services appears to be far easier than it is with services operating in the realm of pseudo-anonymity. </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m one of a million people who are responsible for, say, a hate speech site being given high preference by a search algorithm with relation to a particular benign term, and the only evidence linking me to this action is pseudo-anonymous IP address, how can I practically be brought to bear responsibility (along with the other 999,999 people) for the results of my actions? It is naturally much easier to blame the service provider for allowing such an action to happen in the first place.</p>
<p>If we don&#8217;t want our service providers to bear the responsibility for the actions of its users, then it seems to require a dissolution of the veil of anonymity that we&#8217;ve become accustomed to on this wild wild web. Not that I&#8217;m necessarily advocating for this, but rather I think the trade-offs between anonymity and proper culpability need to be seriously considered.</p>
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