Comments on: How the Eagle Landed: Grumman Construction Log, and a message to space (Apollo 11) http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sat, 25 May 2013 23:35:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: kjs3 http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1486134 kjs3 Mon, 23 Jul 2012 18:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1486134 Really?  The British had a rocket capable of going to the moon in 1969?  I did not know that.  You guys should have spoken up. Really?  The British had a rocket capable of going to the moon in 1969?  I did not know that.  You guys should have spoken up.

]]> By: Eric S. Smith http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1486041 Eric S. Smith Mon, 23 Jul 2012 17:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1486041 Core memory, while persistent in the absence of power, was RAM as we know it: no need to re-weave to fix mistakes. Core memory, while persistent in the absence of power, was RAM as we know it: no need to re-weave to fix mistakes.

]]> By: PeterKVT80 http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1485419 PeterKVT80 Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:28:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1485419 A couple of inaccuracies there. The computer did in fact use silicon chips for the logic. It was the woven memory that was constructed by hand but the rings were made of ferrite. Copper is not magnetic, it wouldn't have transferred the pulse. It is quite astounding how programs were recorded in patterns of these thousands of beads. Imagine if the programmers make a mistake, the poor ladies would have have to do it again. A couple of inaccuracies there. The computer did in fact use silicon chips for the logic. It was the woven memory that was constructed by hand but the rings were made of ferrite. Copper is not magnetic, it wouldn’t have transferred the pulse. It is quite astounding how programs were recorded in patterns of these thousands of beads. Imagine if the programmers make a mistake, the poor ladies would have have to do it again.

]]> By: JustAdComics http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1485323 JustAdComics Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1485323 You may be thinking of proposed versions of the lander that were never built. Very interesting book by Robert Godwin called "The Lunar Exploration Scrapbook," which had a ton of wild designs and concepts. It's on Amazon if you're interested: The Lunar Exploration Scrapbook : A Pictorial History of Lunar Vehicles You may be thinking of proposed versions of the lander that were never built. Very interesting book by Robert Godwin called “The Lunar Exploration Scrapbook,” which had a ton of wild designs and concepts. It’s on Amazon if you’re interested: The Lunar Exploration Scrapbook : A Pictorial History of Lunar Vehicles

]]> By: Dennis Ray Wingo http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1485269 Dennis Ray Wingo Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1485269 Steve, this is great stuff!  Come by some time and I will show you some of the design and test data for the original Saturn V.  As far as I know it is the only copy in existence as I got it from the wife of an Apollo engineer that died and she didn't want any of it. Steve, this is great stuff!  Come by some time and I will show you some of the design and test data for the original Saturn V.  As far as I know it is the only copy in existence as I got it from the wife of an Apollo engineer that died and she didn’t want any of it.

]]> By: Wallace http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1485237 Wallace Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1485237  I think "Plt 39" likely means Plant 39. See, for example <a href="http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATAction.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATAction.htm</a>.  I think “Plt 39″ likely means Plant 39. See, for example http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATAction.htm.

]]> By: Just_Ok http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1485100 Just_Ok Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:30:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1485100 Man, we coulda had a V-8 Man, we coulda had a V-8

]]> By: Noctilucent Studios http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484975 Noctilucent Studios Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:10:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484975  Weird...I could've sworn I read that someplace not too long ago. Might have been in a different part of the Multi-Verse.  Weird…I could’ve sworn I read that someplace not too long ago. Might have been in a different part of the Multi-Verse.

]]> By: nixiebunny http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484972 nixiebunny Sun, 22 Jul 2012 00:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484972 It would take a few more years for NASA to invent the ATM. It would take a few more years for NASA to invent the ATM.

]]> By: Michael Smith http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484930 Michael Smith Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:44:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484930 <blockquote>Commander was basically standing  up with his head out "teenager in a limo style"  for the final descent.</blockquote>No thats wrong. You can read more in the <a href="http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/frame.html" rel="nofollow">Apollo Lunar Surface Journal</a>. In all, landings the commander had manual control of the vehicle at touchdown and viewed the lunar surface through the left front window. This notion may have come from Apollo 15 where the crew did a <a href="http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15.seva.html" rel="nofollow">Stand Up EVA</a> after landing. To do that they decompressed the LM and opened the top hatch. One of the crew climbed up and stuck their head out of the hatch. It was done to get panoramic photos of the landing site with a long lens, and to survey the landing site for the first main EVA with the rover.

Commander was basically standing  up with his head out “teenager in a limo style”  for the final descent.

No thats wrong. You can read more in the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. In all, landings the commander had manual control of the vehicle at touchdown and viewed the lunar surface through the left front window. This notion may have come from Apollo 15 where the crew did a Stand Up EVA after landing. To do that they decompressed the LM and opened the top hatch. One of the crew climbed up and stuck their head out of the hatch. It was done to get panoramic photos of the landing site with a long lens, and to survey the landing site for the first main EVA with the rover.

]]> By: Michael Smith http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484923 Michael Smith Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:31:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484923 <blockquote>even the god ones that NASA used</blockquote>I can't find them in the jaycar catalog!

even the god ones that NASA used

I can’t find them in the jaycar catalog!

]]> By: Michael Smith http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484920 Michael Smith Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484920  The Apollo 15 lunar module landed in a valley surrounded by mountains. The flight control system had a terrain model of the landing site which consisted of <b>five vectors</b>, each vector representing one point in space. These days you would probably model every single rock.  The Apollo 15 lunar module landed in a valley surrounded by mountains. The flight control system had a terrain model of the landing site which consisted of five vectors, each vector representing one point in space. These days you would probably model every single rock.

]]> By: Noctilucent Studios http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484888 Noctilucent Studios Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:08:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484888 I just found out this year that for Apollo 15, 16 and 17 the top hatch of the LM was opened and the Commander was basically standing  up with his head out "teenager in a limo style"  for the final descent. WOW. What a fan-freaking-tastic view that must have been. I just found out this year that for Apollo 15, 16 and 17 the top hatch of the LM was opened and the Commander was basically standing  up with his head out “teenager in a limo style”  for the final descent. WOW. What a fan-freaking-tastic view that must have been.

]]> By: Wayne Johnston http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484886 Wayne Johnston Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:06:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484886 Amid the technical entries there are notes from everyday life, like this one from 6/20/68 (page No 73066 - page 18 of the PDF). A Hecht wrote "Please note that my pay check was locked up and unavailable to me, forcing me to come in tomorrow during the day in order to get cash at a bank before closing (& before returning to work). It would be well if night shift personnel could have their checks brought to the ACE Station in the future, the avoid similar inconvenience." Amid the technical entries there are notes from everyday life, like this one from 6/20/68 (page No 73066 – page 18 of the PDF). A Hecht wrote “Please note that my pay check was locked up and unavailable to me, forcing me to come in tomorrow during the day in order to get cash at a bank before closing (& before returning to work). It would be well if night shift personnel could have their checks brought to the ACE Station in the future, the avoid similar inconvenience.”

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484869 Antinous / Moderator Sat, 21 Jul 2012 20:28:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484869 That episode is probably the best illustration of the 'design process' ever made. They should screen it in design schools. That episode is probably the best illustration of the ‘design process’ ever made. They should screen it in design schools.

]]> By: Mister44 http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484785 Mister44 Sat, 21 Jul 2012 18:05:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484785  The Germans they were copying initially from were the ones building the new rocket. The Saturn V is waaay more advanced than any V-2 of the Germans.  The Germans they were copying initially from were the ones building the new rocket. The Saturn V is waaay more advanced than any V-2 of the Germans.

]]> By: Mister44 http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484784 Mister44 Sat, 21 Jul 2012 18:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484784  re: "but wires looped through copper rings, that had to be woven -- by hand!" Rope memory! I thought I was the only one who knew that little known space fact.  re: “but wires looped through copper rings, that had to be woven — by hand!”

Rope memory! I thought I was the only one who knew that little known space fact.

]]> By: futnuh http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484774 futnuh Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484774 There were hundreds of thousands of hard engineering issues to resolve in order to land a man on the moon and bring him safely home. Your implied dismissal of this mammoth undertaking with a glib comment reveals a profound ignorance. There were hundreds of thousands of hard engineering issues to resolve in order to land a man on the moon and bring him safely home. Your implied dismissal of this mammoth undertaking with a glib comment reveals a profound ignorance.

]]> By: xzzy http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484704 xzzy Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:55:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484704 The technique is still relevant today. Fermilab uses software that around the lab is referred to as the "logbook". It's basically a web tool to enter notes, images, and random thoughts as the experiment runs. Shifters use it to pass knowledge to the next shift and make note of strange happenings so they can be investigated in detail later. Entries are never deleted.. it's basically a giant rolling notebook that goes back ~20 years. A physicist can look up an entry by date and gain some insight on the status of the detector on that day.  There are also entire shelves filled with three ring binders that were populated prior to the existence of the software. The technique is still relevant today. Fermilab uses software that around the lab is referred to as the “logbook”. It’s basically a web tool to enter notes, images, and random thoughts as the experiment runs. Shifters use it to pass knowledge to the next shift and make note of strange happenings so they can be investigated in detail later.

Entries are never deleted.. it’s basically a giant rolling notebook that goes back ~20 years. A physicist can look up an entry by date and gain some insight on the status of the detector on that day. 

There are also entire shelves filled with three ring binders that were populated prior to the existence of the software.

]]> By: NefariousNewt http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484695 NefariousNewt Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:44:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484695 That engineering was what allowed the survival of the Apollo 13 crew after the Service Module explosion. That engineering was what allowed the survival of the Apollo 13 crew after the Service Module explosion.

]]> By: NefariousNewt http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484691 NefariousNewt Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:43:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484691 To clarify, the part to which I was referring was the memory core: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P12r8DKHsak To clarify, the part to which I was referring was the memory core: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P12r8DKHsak

]]> By: cservant http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484666 cservant Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484666 You should look at the instrumentation ring of the Saturn V rocket.  Good chunk of it was cordwood layout.  They needed that for the space and ruggedness.  The whole rocket vibrates, no flimsy wire wrap. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_board#.22Cordwood.22_construction  That and alot of point to point work. You should look at the instrumentation ring of the Saturn V rocket.  Good chunk of it was cordwood layout.  They needed that for the space and ruggedness.  The whole rocket vibrates, no flimsy wire wrap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_board#.22Cordwood.22_construction 

That and alot of point to point work.

]]> By: Hayes Whitt http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484663 Hayes Whitt Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484663 No, the Germans. No, the Germans.

]]> By: martyn jones http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484658 martyn jones Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:15:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484658 You do know they copied the rocket from the british? You do know they copied the rocket from the british?

]]> By: z7q2 http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484657 z7q2 Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484657 yeah I agree with you about a wiki. but I thought, ah why not, this might turn out to be an interesting thread project. we could race the flickr page :) your QC was implemented, thank you good sir yeah I agree with you about a wiki. but I thought, ah why not, this might turn out to be an interesting thread project. we could race the flickr page :)

your QC was implemented, thank you good sir

]]> By: DewiMorgan http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484650 DewiMorgan Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:08:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484650  Your formatting is preferable I think - also you can spell "Aircraft", "absence", "try" and "17:30" correctly, and I apparently can't. Agree my "for" is more correctly "fr." (meaning "from").  And yay! I love that you realised that scribbled out thing said 'if' - that adds a LOT that I totally missed! You have "supervisor" in one place where I think the original says "supvsr", and I think we're both wrong: what I put as "pet 39" and you as "PH 39" should be "Plt 39" (platform 39?) and the location at the top of the page should be "Plt 5". Yup, confirmed from page 5. In sum, I feel your transcription is considerably more faithful to the original to mine, but a wiki would really be the best place for this if we could get one.  Your formatting is preferable I think – also you can spell “Aircraft”, “absence”, “try” and “17:30″ correctly, and I apparently can’t. Agree my “for” is more correctly “fr.” (meaning “from”).  And yay! I love that you realised that scribbled out thing said ‘if’ – that adds a LOT that I totally missed!

You have “supervisor” in one place where I think the original says “supvsr”, and I think we’re both wrong: what I put as “pet 39″ and you as “PH 39″ should be “Plt 39″ (platform 39?) and the location at the top of the page should be “Plt 5″. Yup, confirmed from page 5.

In sum, I feel your transcription is considerably more faithful to the original to mine, but a wiki would really be the best place for this if we could get one.

]]> By: nixiebunny http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484639 nixiebunny Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484639 Here's an interesting tidbit from p.73064 on the Master Alarm: --- Vehicle powered-up, and back on line with TPS 35-923. TPS completed 1600. Conclusions - 1. 35uF at P/J 148 pins C&D seemed just at the verge of preventing the master alarm when switching from "Off" to "Inv 1". 2. With 50 uF, the master alarm never came on, in 10 cycles of switching from "Off" to Inv 1" and to "Off" again. 3. With the 50 uF, the master alarm came on - as it should - when the AC bus was de-energized. --- It's no wonder that the alarm would trigger randomly, if they were changing an electrolytic capacitor value by 30% to stop it happening. Electrolytic capacitors are known to have widely varying values, even the god ones that NASA used. The conclusion that I reach from this is that the design needed to be redone to use different methods of detecting problems, so it wouldn't depend on component values being just ever so. Here’s an interesting tidbit from p.73064 on the Master Alarm:
—
Vehicle powered-up, and back on line with TPS 35-923.
TPS completed 1600. Conclusions –
1. 35uF at P/J 148 pins C&D seemed just at the verge of preventing the master alarm when switching from “Off” to “Inv 1″.
2. With 50 uF, the master alarm never came on, in 10 cycles of switching from “Off” to Inv 1″ and to “Off” again.
3. With the 50 uF, the master alarm came on – as it should – when the AC bus was de-energized.
—

It’s no wonder that the alarm would trigger randomly, if they were
changing an electrolytic capacitor value by 30% to stop it happening. Electrolytic capacitors
are known to have widely varying values, even the god ones that NASA
used.

The conclusion that I reach from this is that the design needed to be redone to use different methods of detecting problems, so it wouldn’t depend on component values being just ever so.

]]> By: DewiMorgan http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484636 DewiMorgan Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484636  Hah - I did the same thing here: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/7610058658?reg=1&src=comment Seems better to do it on that blog, than in everywhere it gets reblogged, like BoingBoing.  Hah – I did the same thing here: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/7610058658?reg=1&src=comment
Seems better to do it on that blog, than in everywhere it gets reblogged, like BoingBoing.

]]> By: z7q2 http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484618 z7q2 Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:35:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484618 pg 4 transcript --- Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation LOG Page No. 73052 Engineer A. Hecht Project LM-5 Location Plt 5 Time 8am/6pm day shift Title ----- Date 6-5-68 (1) Mod 14 to TPS 70010 prep was issued last night, deleting ECS Control Unit & all assoc. cables (because P/J 765 cannot be mated due to absence of ECS relay Box). (2) Generated dev. #8-11 to incorporate Mod 14 change into OCP (temporary). (3) Attended LM5 Mtg: Heard following statement: DO NOT USE Bag of OLD CB Guards delivered to vehicle yesterday. They may be TIGHT FIT. Delivery of NEW CB guards promised for 6/10 (Mon) (4) Waited for QC coverage to transfer stamps fr. 70010 Prep TPS to OCP from 0915 until 1430. No QC coverage available. Advised Pad Supervisor, Don Getnost(QC), D. De Martino, R. Valdez (QC), Meeting at Command post (incl. Al Beauregard), and Milt Cohen. Result: At 1430 still no QC, no promise except "We'll try for tonight". Pad supvsr will call X6111 <strike>if</strike> when QC becomes available. Returned to plt 39. ------------ (5) Checked 1730 w. pad supervisor for QC assignment. He suggested we call back after 1815 to get QC coverage (ask for Vinnie Mackel, pad supvsr). --- ok now someone please proofread this and do the next page, thanx! pg 4 transcript

—

Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation

LOG

Page No. 73052
Engineer A. Hecht
Project LM-5
Location Plt 5
Time 8am/6pm day shift
Title —–
Date 6-5-68

(1) Mod 14 to TPS 70010 prep was issued last night, deleting ECS Control Unit & all assoc. cables (because P/J 765 cannot be mated due to absence of ECS relay Box).

(2) Generated dev. #8-11 to incorporate Mod 14 change into OCP (temporary).

(3) Attended LM5 Mtg: Heard following statement: DO NOT USE Bag of OLD CB Guards delivered to vehicle yesterday. They may be TIGHT FIT.
Delivery of NEW CB guards promised for 6/10 (Mon)

(4) Waited for QC coverage to transfer stamps fr. 70010 Prep TPS to OCP from 0915 until 1430. No QC coverage available.
Advised Pad Supervisor, Don Getnost(QC), D. De Martino, R. Valdez (QC), Meeting at Command post (incl. Al Beauregard), and Milt Cohen.
Result: At 1430 still no QC, no promise except “We’ll try for tonight”. Pad supvsr will call X6111 if when QC becomes available. Returned to plt 39.

————

(5) Checked 1730 w. pad supervisor for QC assignment. He suggested we call back after 1815 to get QC coverage (ask for Vinnie Mackel, pad supvsr).

—

ok now someone please proofread this and do the next page, thanx!

]]> By: Gorgonzola http://boingboing.net/2012/07/21/how-the-eagle-landed-the-grum.html#comment-1484616 Gorgonzola Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=172451#comment-1484616 OCRing would be a good crowd-sourcing job.  Get a bunch of people to volunteer to do one page or use the Amazon Mechanical Turk. OCRing would be a good crowd-sourcing job.  Get a bunch of people to volunteer to do one page or use the Amazon Mechanical Turk.

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