Comments on: WIPO's Broadcasting Treaty is back: a treaty to end the public domain, fair use and Creative Commons http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:43:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Ron Wilson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1509057 Ron Wilson Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1509057 That would depend on whether the broadcast right extended to the original content. If so, then effectively, yes. (see my other post on extent of broadcast right) That would depend on whether the broadcast right extended to the original content. If so, then effectively, yes. (see my other post on extent of broadcast right)

]]> By: Ron Wilson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1509053 Ron Wilson Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:30:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1509053 Not necessarily fraudulent. Could have been an automatically generated take down notice. But, this does raise a question: Is the broadcast right limited to just what the broadcaster broadcasted, or does it extend to the original content as well? And even if the right is limited, there would still be the issue of proving that any subsequent broadcast of the original content was not a rebroadcast of the first broadcast. Yes, I know that, techinically, the burden of proof is on the first broadcaster, but the cost of responding to allegations is almost always greater than the cost of paying the "royalties", so only big enough (or well known enough) creators would be able to avoid paying "big content" for access to the means of distribution. Not necessarily fraudulent. Could have been an automatically generated take down notice. But, this does raise a question: Is the broadcast right limited to just what the broadcaster broadcasted, or does it extend to the original content as well? And even if the right is limited, there would still be the issue of proving that any subsequent broadcast of the original content was not a rebroadcast of the first broadcast. Yes, I know that, techinically, the burden of proof is on the first broadcaster, but the cost of responding to allegations is almost always greater than the cost of paying the “royalties”, so only big enough (or well known enough) creators would be able to avoid paying “big content” for access to the means of distribution.

]]> By: Ron Wilson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1509028 Ron Wilson Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:13:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1509028 The problem here is that, except for true "over the air" broadcasting, every entity between the content and the viewer could be considered a broadcaster for purposes of broadcast rights - the web host, its ISP, any backbone and/or CDN providers the content traverses, the viewer's ISP, and possibly even the manufacturers of every router/gateway/whatever the content goes through. Creators could be left with no practical way to distribute their content without a multitude of middlemen claiming rights on that content. The problem here is that, except for true “over the air” broadcasting, every entity between the content and the viewer could be considered a broadcaster for purposes of broadcast rights – the web host, its ISP, any backbone and/or CDN providers the content traverses, the viewer’s ISP, and possibly even the manufacturers of every router/gateway/whatever the content goes through. Creators could be left with no practical way to distribute their content without a multitude of middlemen claiming rights on that content.

]]> By: Steven Lord http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1508294 Steven Lord Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:00:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1508294 Even better: broadcast (either on YouTube or at 3 AM on some public access TV station) someone reading the full text of this proposed treaty. Then warn the negotiators they could be liable for broadcast right infringement damages (which given Big Content are probably going to be substantial) if this goes through. Even better: broadcast (either on YouTube or at 3 AM on some public access TV station) someone reading the full text of this proposed treaty. Then warn the negotiators they could be liable for broadcast right infringement damages (which given Big Content are probably going to be substantial) if this goes through.

]]> By: Timothy Heys http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1507132 Timothy Heys Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:03:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1507132 check out torproject.org check out torproject.org

]]> By: bumblebeeeeeee http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506717 bumblebeeeeeee Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506717 google cache? google cache?

]]> By: bumblebeeeeeee http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506714 bumblebeeeeeee Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506714 no no

]]> By: bumblebeeeeeee http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506713 bumblebeeeeeee Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506713 might they well, but clearly you haven't.  might they well, but clearly you haven’t. 

]]> By: Justen Robertson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506332 Justen Robertson Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506332  Nah Ayn Rand advocated a whole different kind of crap. She never would have supported needless bureaucratization of simple legal principles, even the ones she supported like IP. These clowns are taking a page from Mussolini, and from 1984 (the revised version that they read as a manual rather than a warning). And more to point, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Leo Strauss. It's important to get your demagogues and ideologues straight if you want to impugn people by implied association :)  Nah Ayn Rand advocated a whole different kind of crap. She never would have supported needless bureaucratization of simple legal principles, even the ones she supported like IP. These clowns are taking a page from Mussolini, and from 1984 (the revised version that they read as a manual rather than a warning). And more to point, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Leo Strauss. It’s important to get your demagogues and ideologues straight if you want to impugn people by implied association :)

]]> By: Justen Robertson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506326 Justen Robertson Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506326 It's funny how these guys just don't give up. You know we can always include new clauses in copyleft licenses prohibiting the distribution of copyleft material by any organization covered by the new broadcast laws. It's going to hurt them more than it hurts us at this stage, since half their content is just stale regurgitation of stuff they found on the internet. But you have to wonder, with their profits drying up and their customer base evaporating, how much longer they'll be able to buy access to politicians. This is a long game, and really all anti-copyright has to do to win it is to keep existing in spite of whatever regulations come around. As long as we're creating and sharing, regardless of whether above-ground institutions like youtube facilitate it, profits will continue to dwindle and with them the ability to afford lobbyists. Not that anyone should rest on their laurels - just keep fighting the good fight. This started a long time ago (arguably over 30 years ago) and it's got a ways to go yet, but we're definitely winning. These ridiculous law proposals are looking less like ominous death knells for the movement and more like desperate death throes all the time. It’s funny how these guys just don’t give up. You know we can always include new clauses in copyleft licenses prohibiting the distribution of copyleft material by any organization covered by the new broadcast laws. It’s going to hurt them more than it hurts us at this stage, since half their content is just stale regurgitation of stuff they found on the internet.

But you have to wonder, with their profits drying up and their customer base evaporating, how much longer they’ll be able to buy access to politicians. This is a long game, and really all anti-copyright has to do to win it is to keep existing in spite of whatever regulations come around. As long as we’re creating and sharing, regardless of whether above-ground institutions like youtube facilitate it, profits will continue to dwindle and with them the ability to afford lobbyists. Not that anyone should rest on their laurels – just keep fighting the good fight. This started a long time ago (arguably over 30 years ago) and it’s got a ways to go yet, but we’re definitely winning. These ridiculous law proposals are looking less like ominous death knells for the movement and more like desperate death throes all the time.

]]> By: Lemoutan http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506298 Lemoutan Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506298 So. It has come to this. So. It has come to this.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506225 Antinous / Moderator Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:09:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506225 Dude, That's a link to a rant from nobody in particular. Dude,

That’s a link to a rant from nobody in particular.

]]> By: tetridae http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506158 tetridae Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506158  Well the companies may not be run by techies, but the techies know the tech so they can circumvent these initiatives in their spare time. They'll gladly do it free of charge. How can you fight something with business that people do for their own believes free of charge in their spare time?  Well the companies may not be run by techies, but the techies know the tech so they can circumvent these initiatives in their spare time. They’ll gladly do it free of charge. How can you fight something with business that people do for their own believes free of charge in their spare time?

]]> By: Cameron Ferguson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506147 Cameron Ferguson Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:12:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506147 Wrong. Give this a read: http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/staterights/treaties.htm Wrong. Give this a read:

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/staterights/treaties.htm

]]> By: | gad-E | http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506115 | gad-E | Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506115 Ever thought about them being the same things?  ---  I mean, not literally  ---  but rather, they're just both "things" to some people. Especially for people who money isn't ever a concern for...just a means to control the end. Ever thought about them being the same things?  —  I mean, not literally  —  but rather, they’re just both “things” to some people. Especially for people who money isn’t ever a concern for…just a means to control the end.

]]> By: | gad-E | http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1506104 | gad-E | Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:44:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1506104 Haha, don't worry about it. I've got something for them...I just so happened to be doing some research & stumbled upon some of this nonsense - as in, around the first time the idea was even proposed. Word of advice for the future though: take screen shots of the really important stuff (I did). It blows my mind that 4 different pages on 4 different websites got deleted less than 18 hours after I accessed them. I'm not screaming "conspiracy" or anything, but I'm sure as hell not naive enough to attribute it to coincidence. Stay tuned. Things might get a little bumpy ;) Haha, don’t worry about it. I’ve got something for them…I just so happened to be doing some research & stumbled upon some of this nonsense – as in, around the first time the idea was even proposed. Word of advice for the future though: take screen shots of the really important stuff (I did). It blows my mind that 4 different pages on 4 different websites got deleted less than 18 hours after I accessed them. I’m not screaming “conspiracy” or anything, but I’m sure as hell not naive enough to attribute it to coincidence. Stay tuned. Things might get a little bumpy ;)

]]> By: Les Zouazo http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1505943 Les Zouazo Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:17:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1505943 And to witness the gun nuts hyperventilating like crazy fuckers on the UN Small Arms Treaty (which had NOTHING to do with US gun control laws) while WIPO is ready to sell us all to big TeeVee and cable. Dear God! Will the rubes ever learn to discriminate signal from noise? As for the UN bureaucrats, bring me a US administration that will refuse to pay its UN dues until the cretins get booted out of office forever. Enough already! And to witness the gun nuts hyperventilating like crazy fuckers on the UN Small Arms Treaty (which had NOTHING to do with US gun control laws) while WIPO is ready to sell us all to big TeeVee and cable.

Dear God! Will the rubes ever learn to discriminate signal from noise?

As for the UN bureaucrats, bring me a US administration that will refuse to pay its UN dues until the cretins get booted out of office forever.

Enough already!

]]> By: gehringer http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1505156 gehringer Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1505156  Do SOPA-style blackouts again? Lots of tech companies aren't gonna be happy about this (I'm pretty sure Google wouldn't be happy if youtube suddenly became basically illegal), and if we can get even just a couple of the Big Boys of the internet world on board with this, this stupid treaty'll die with a whimper just like SOPA did.  Do SOPA-style blackouts again?

Lots of tech companies aren’t gonna be happy about this (I’m pretty sure Google wouldn’t be happy if youtube suddenly became basically illegal), and if we can get even just a couple of the Big Boys of the internet world on board with this, this stupid treaty’ll die with a whimper just like SOPA did.

]]> By: arjenkamphuis http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1505121 arjenkamphuis Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:02:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1505121 From this it seems obvious that the goal of WIPO is no longer to enforce regulation on stuff certain companies own. Instead it appears to be aimed at preventing the existence of any alternative to commercially exploited copyrighted material. What is the reasonable way to respond to an existential threat by convicted monopolists? From this it seems obvious that the goal of WIPO is no longer to enforce regulation on stuff certain companies own. Instead it appears to be aimed at preventing the existence of any alternative to commercially exploited copyrighted material.

What is the reasonable way to respond to an existential threat by convicted monopolists?

]]> By: MadRat http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1505072 MadRat Sun, 12 Aug 2012 15:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1505072 There's something important being missed here.  Treaties are different from State or Federal laws that can be overturned as unconstitutional or revoked by the Legislature and President.  The Supremacy Clause takes president over Constitutional law and only a Constitutional amendment can change that.  If the United States agrees to a treaty that violates one of the rights in our Bill of Rights then that right gets revoked.  Yes, there are legal traditions about avoiding that situation, but those are traditional views and not legally binding views.  We have to be extremely aware and cautious about what the United States agrees to in a treaty.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause#Concerns_about_treaties  There’s something important being missed here.  Treaties are different from State or Federal laws that can be overturned as unconstitutional or revoked by the Legislature and President.  The Supremacy Clause takes president over Constitutional law and only a Constitutional amendment can change that.  If the United States agrees to a treaty that violates one of the rights in our Bill of Rights then that right gets revoked.  Yes, there are legal traditions about avoiding that situation, but those are traditional views and not legally binding views.  We have to be extremely aware and cautious about what the United States agrees to in a treaty.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause#Concerns_about_treaties 

]]> By: austinhamman http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504970 austinhamman Sun, 12 Aug 2012 05:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504970 seriously STOP just FUCKING STOP! this is how the law works these days: 1: propose bill 2: if rejected goto 1 we need to change copyright. i don't care if it results in some reduction of content, i dont care if the entire content industry collapses. its nice to have but you know something i like having more? my fucking civil liberties! just STOP you are only hurting yourself and everyone else. seriously STOP just FUCKING STOP!
this is how the law works these days:
1: propose bill
2: if rejected goto 1

we need to change copyright. i don’t care if it results in some reduction of content, i dont care if the entire content industry collapses. its nice to have but you know something i like having more? my fucking civil liberties! just STOP you are only hurting yourself and everyone else.

]]> By: ashabot http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504967 ashabot Sun, 12 Aug 2012 05:02:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504967 Unholy fucking god! What's it going to take to shake these blood suckers off our necks? Unholy fucking god! What’s it going to take to shake these blood suckers off our necks?

]]> By: Dan Allosso http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504953 Dan Allosso Sun, 12 Aug 2012 03:26:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504953 I was just wondering if anyone noticed, when we're talking about "Big Content," that it would only take a small change in documentation for a big aggregator of out-of-copyright works (for example, the one that scanned the Bodleian, Stanford, and Harvard libraries) to be considered a broadcaster.   Does that mean Google would then "own" all the old books in the world?  That would be worth losing You Tube over... I was just wondering if anyone noticed, when we’re talking about “Big Content,” that it would only take a small change in documentation for a big aggregator of out-of-copyright works (for example, the one that scanned the Bodleian, Stanford, and Harvard libraries) to be considered a broadcaster.  

Does that mean Google would then “own” all the old books in the world?  That would be worth losing You Tube over…

]]> By: seraphimblade http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504894 seraphimblade Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:45:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504894 Remember the SOPA blackout? SOPA became a dirty word after that, and it died with a whimper. If you try to screw the tech sector, we'll be happy to respond in kind. By the way, guess who ultimately controls that critical infrastructure you depend on, and can yank it out from under you without notice? On most issues, geeks will disagree and nearly neutralize one another. But that's lulled politicians into thinking we're docile. Step on our toes as a whole, and we'll kick so hard they won't know what hit them. There's only so many times your name can be smeared as "bad" to every user of the Internet until you're voted out. Remember the SOPA blackout? SOPA became a dirty word after that, and it died with a whimper.

If you try to screw the tech sector, we’ll be happy to respond in kind. By the way, guess who ultimately controls that critical infrastructure you depend on, and can yank it out from under you without notice?

On most issues, geeks will disagree and nearly neutralize one another. But that’s lulled politicians into thinking we’re docile. Step on our toes as a whole, and we’ll kick so hard they won’t know what hit them.

There’s only so many times your name can be smeared as “bad” to every user of the Internet until you’re voted out.

]]> By: L_Mariachi http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504856 L_Mariachi Sat, 11 Aug 2012 19:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504856 Could’t some enterprising company corner the market on wholly creator-generated content by offering to relinquish the broadcast right? The broadcaster still needs permission from the creator to broadcast the work, correct? (Permission which on the Web is usually granted by an “I accept” button on a lengthy click-through license that nobody ever reads, but still. If the company made this a selling point and wasn’t shitty about their standard license…) Any aggrieved copyright holder could say “no” to abusive broadcasters.  It’d obviously still be a big fucking problem overall, but maybe with these assholes being more flagrant with their assholery, there’d be ways to leverage <i>not</i> being an asshole. Could’t some enterprising company corner the market on wholly creator-generated content by offering to relinquish the broadcast right? The broadcaster still needs permission from the creator to broadcast the work, correct? (Permission which on the Web is usually granted by an “I accept” button on a lengthy click-through license that nobody ever reads, but still. If the company made this a selling point and wasn’t shitty about their standard license…) Any aggrieved copyright holder could say “no” to abusive broadcasters. 

It’d obviously still be a big fucking problem overall, but maybe with these assholes being more flagrant with their assholery, there’d be ways to leverage not being an asshole.

]]> By: awjt http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504851 awjt Sat, 11 Aug 2012 19:48:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504851 I'm just tired of the arms race.  I'd rather create a new supercountry. I’m just tired of the arms race.  I’d rather create a new supercountry.

]]> By: EH http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504796 EH Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504796 I think one first step would be to stop thinking of these things in metaphors. They don't have to be Draconian or Orwellian, they're already American. As long as your mind only connects reality to literary concepts, you can safely ignore the fact that this shit is actually going on. "If Roger Zelazny was President, we wouldn't be having these problems." I think one first step would be to stop thinking of these things in metaphors. They don’t have to be Draconian or Orwellian, they’re already American. As long as your mind only connects reality to literary concepts, you can safely ignore the fact that this shit is actually going on. “If Roger Zelazny was President, we wouldn’t be having these problems.”

]]> By: EH http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504792 EH Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:19:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504792 "These people" read Ayn Rand and like it. “These people” read Ayn Rand and like it.

]]> By: EH http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504790 EH Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:17:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504790 Great! When do we start? Great! When do we start?

]]> By: EH http://boingboing.net/2012/08/11/wipos-broadcasting-treaty-is.html#comment-1504789 EH Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=176020#comment-1504789 No. They won't stop until the stuff they're trying to get rid of is enshrined into law. The Public-Domain Preservation Act or something. No. They won’t stop until the stuff they’re trying to get rid of is enshrined into law. The Public-Domain Preservation Act or something.

]]>