Comments on: Miners to be charged with murder after police kill 34 (Update: charges to be dropped) http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Fri, 24 May 2013 01:47:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: francoisroux http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1523558 francoisroux Sat, 01 Sep 2012 19:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1523558 I honestly hope you're being sarcastic, because even though I would never in my life want apartheid to return, people are now far, far worse off than they have ever been. They are less safe, they are poorer, they are hungrier and the whole state system is failing as far as service delivery and maintenance of infrastructure is concerned. And it's getting worse by the day... EDIT: And this is ALL people of all races, colours and sexual orientation and whatever else is being used to determine to which group you belong. I honestly hope you’re being sarcastic, because even though I would never in my life want apartheid to return, people are now far, far worse off than they have ever been. They are less safe, they are poorer, they are hungrier and the whole state system is failing as far as service delivery and maintenance of infrastructure is concerned. And it’s getting worse by the day…

EDIT: And this is ALL people of all races, colours and sexual orientation and whatever else is being used to determine to which group you belong.

]]> By: francoisroux http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1523556 francoisroux Sat, 01 Sep 2012 18:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1523556 Bystanders with knobkierries, spears and pangas in their hands... Bystanders with knobkierries, spears and pangas in their hands…

]]> By: Leighanne http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522448 Leighanne Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522448 As a South African living in South Africa that has been following this story very closely, this is the most logical article I have read to date. http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-08-30-the-murder-fields-of-marikana-the-cold-murder-fields-of-marikana As a South African living in South Africa that has been following this story very closely, this is the most logical article I have read to date. http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-08-30-the-murder-fields-of-marikana-the-cold-murder-fields-of-marikana

]]> By: ocker3 http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522385 ocker3 Fri, 31 Aug 2012 11:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522385  Nah, they charge them with Adultery, it's Completely Different!!! *sarcasm*  Nah, they charge them with Adultery, it’s Completely Different!!! *sarcasm*

]]> By: Daniel van Zyl http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522332 Daniel van Zyl Fri, 31 Aug 2012 06:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522332 The whole indecent is currently being mangled. There are conflicting reports from different sources and people are just generally raging in favor of their perception of the indecent. The fact that two officers and two guards where hacked to death the previous day by the same protestors seams to largely forgotten. As is the fact that shots where fired (believe at least 5 pistols where recovered) at the police. Whether the shots where fired before or after is at the core of the problem we are facing. To me the actions of the police was to say the least, excessive and brutal. But I have been in such a situation myself. And a 100+ strong mob brandishing machetes and short-spears isn't exactly a tea-party. We will have see what happens next. The whole indecent is currently being mangled. There are conflicting reports from different sources and people are just generally raging in favor of their perception of the indecent.

The fact that two officers and two guards where hacked to death the previous day by the same protestors seams to largely forgotten. As is the fact that shots where fired (believe at least 5 pistols where recovered) at the police. Whether the shots where fired before or after is at the core of the problem we are facing.

To me the actions of the police was to say the least, excessive and brutal. But I have been in such a situation myself. And a 100+ strong mob brandishing machetes and short-spears isn’t exactly a tea-party. We will have see what happens next.

]]> By: hakuin http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522250 hakuin Fri, 31 Aug 2012 02:32:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522250  tsk  tsk

]]> By: Ipo http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522230 Ipo Fri, 31 Aug 2012 01:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522230 Godwin's law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."  You just fulfill the law, violating it would be if in a near infinitely long thread no one ever brought up hitlernazis.  Also, there is nothing wrong with comparing a massacre by uniformed thugs to a massacre by uniformed thugs. Godwin’s law: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” 
You just fulfill the law, violating it would be if in a near infinitely long thread no one ever brought up hitlernazis. 
Also, there is nothing wrong with comparing a massacre by uniformed thugs to a massacre by uniformed thugs.

]]> By: Ipo http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522223 Ipo Fri, 31 Aug 2012 01:47:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522223 Laughing about "<i>a tsunami of blood is coming.</i>" doesn't equal laughing about that mass murder soon to be followed by massacre.  Laughing about “a tsunami of blood is coming.” doesn’t equal laughing about that mass murder soon to be followed by massacre. 

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522191 Antinous / Moderator Fri, 31 Aug 2012 00:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522191 But if one person in a crowd of thousands committed a felony related to the protest, they could use that law. Joe Arpaio would do it. But if one person in a crowd of thousands committed a felony related to the protest, they could use that law. Joe Arpaio would do it.

]]> By: Susan Carley Oliver http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522184 Susan Carley Oliver Fri, 31 Aug 2012 00:36:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522184 Fortunately, protesting in the US is not a felony, so that law wouldn't apply. (Responding to Antinous) Fortunately, protesting in the US is not a felony, so that law wouldn’t apply. (Responding to Antinous)

]]> By: Navin_Johnson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522166 Navin_Johnson Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522166 With demonization of labor, and increasing militarized police forces and heavy handed tactics it's only a matter of time before this happens to strikers/protesters in the U.S. .........................again. With demonization of labor, and increasing militarized police forces and heavy handed tactics it’s only a matter of time before this happens to strikers/protesters in the U.S. …………………….again.

]]> By: phaedrus http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522136 phaedrus Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:32:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522136 As a South African, I'm pretty appalled by this whole thing. Some others have tried to put this in context, but just to reiterate: this protest had been going for some time. There had been fatalities on both sides. Two cops had been killed, and at least one of those had his firearm stolen. The police had been using water cannons, tear gas, and rubber bullets prior to the shooting. Many of the rioters were armed - not with guns, but vicious weapons nevertheless. Obviously, it was an excessive use of force and, frankly, I'm surprised the cops didn't end up shooting each other. Charging everyone seems like a foolish response, and I doubt it'll hold up in court for very long. What really irks me, though, is that South Africans have forgotten *how* to protest. It seems like every single protest these days involves weapons, arson, and/or destruction of property. Peaceful protest isn't exactly a dark art. Provoking (scared) men with guns seems like a recipe for disaster, and when the gun smoke clears, everyone seems surprised that it happened. Until we return to more effective modes of voicing discontent, scenes like this will keep happening. As a South African, I’m pretty appalled by this whole thing. Some others have tried to put this in context, but just to reiterate: this protest had been going for some time. There had been fatalities on both sides. Two cops had been killed, and at least one of those had his firearm stolen. The police had been using water cannons, tear gas, and rubber bullets prior to the shooting. Many of the rioters were armed – not with guns, but vicious weapons nevertheless. Obviously, it was an excessive use of force and, frankly, I’m surprised the cops didn’t end up shooting each other. Charging everyone seems like a foolish response, and I doubt it’ll hold up in court for very long. What really irks me, though, is that South Africans have forgotten *how* to protest. It seems like every single protest these days involves weapons, arson, and/or destruction of property. Peaceful protest isn’t exactly a dark art. Provoking (scared) men with guns seems like a recipe for disaster, and when the gun smoke clears, everyone seems surprised that it happened. Until we return to more effective modes of voicing discontent, scenes like this will keep happening.

]]> By: Hakuin http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522112 Hakuin Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:08:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522112 mass murder soon to be followed by massacre, and you laugh.   American, white, young,  male,  right? mass murder soon to be followed by massacre, and you laugh.   American, white, young,  male,  right?

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522071 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:29:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522071 Wow, when I put it that way, it sounds like we're <I>already</I> living in a cyberpunk dystopia; e.g. Neuromancer or Shadowrun. Wow, when I put it that way, it sounds like we’re already living in a cyberpunk dystopia; e.g. Neuromancer or Shadowrun.

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522061 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522061 It's also the kind of thing that tuns corporations into "people" with Free-Speech rights. It’s also the kind of thing that tuns corporations into “people” with Free-Speech rights.

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522058 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:23:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522058 That time of the month? That time of the month?

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522033 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:07:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522033 Well, granted that South Africa isn't the United States of America, this action is perfectly justifiable if you combine the twisted pretzel logic that led to both the "Citizens United" and "Kelo v. City of New London" Supreme Court rulings: A corporate "person" that is the corporation that runs the mine, pays more taxes, and as a result; has more rights than the non-corporate "persons" I.E. the striking miners, because they pay less in taxes. These non-corporate "persons" are 2nd-class tax-revenue generators, are actively impeding the mine's operation, thereby preventing the mine from generating revenue for the corporate "person" that runs the mine which results in a net loss in tax revenue for the state... ...therefore; the state MUST step in to stop these non-corporate "2nd-class persons" from disrupting the mine's operation, with deadly force, if necessary. Well, granted that South Africa isn’t the United States of America, this action is perfectly justifiable if you combine the twisted pretzel logic that led to both the “Citizens United” and “Kelo v. City of New London” Supreme Court rulings: A corporate “person” that is the corporation that runs the mine, pays more taxes, and as a result; has more rights than the non-corporate “persons” I.E. the striking miners, because they pay less in taxes. These non-corporate “persons” are 2nd-class tax-revenue generators, are actively impeding the mine’s operation, thereby preventing the mine from generating revenue for the corporate “person” that runs the mine which results in a net loss in tax revenue for the state…

…therefore; the state MUST step in to stop these non-corporate “2nd-class persons” from disrupting the mine’s operation, with deadly force, if necessary.

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1522011 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:49:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1522011 I think you have this confused with the incident in Boston five years earlier. The Lexington/Concord incident was, to put it in modern terms; a police-action to proactively disarm militants/insurgents by doing house-to-house searches to confiscate all military-grade smallarms and disabling one (privately-owned) artillery piece. I think you have this confused with the incident in Boston five years earlier.

The Lexington/Concord incident was, to put it in modern terms; a police-action to proactively disarm militants/insurgents by doing house-to-house searches to confiscate all military-grade smallarms and disabling one (privately-owned) artillery piece.

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521990 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:39:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521990 Well then, that simplifies things: arrest all the blobs. Well then, that simplifies things: arrest all the blobs.

]]> By: Theranthrope http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521977 Theranthrope Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:35:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521977 "BBC isn't known for being either incomplete or letting bias get into their reporting." Yes they are, at least in regards to anything involving Israel. “BBC isn’t known for being either incomplete or letting bias get into their reporting.”

Yes they are, at least in regards to anything involving Israel.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521966 Antinous / Moderator Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521966 As above, not so much below. As above, not so much below.

]]> By: rhodian http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521949 rhodian Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521949 y'know I was thinking the same thing.  Then I sorta thought that water cannon may not be an ideal African solution, in some areas anyway.  And if the weather's not right tear gas just blows away, it's better for getting people out of buildings.  Nevertheless, there are other non-lethal solutions.  Such as NOT shooting randomly into the crowd... y’know I was thinking the same thing.  Then I sorta thought that water cannon may not be an ideal African solution, in some areas anyway.  And if the weather’s not right tear gas just blows away, it’s better for getting people out of buildings.  Nevertheless, there are other non-lethal solutions.  Such as NOT shooting randomly into the crowd…

]]> By: Navin_Johnson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521940 Navin_Johnson Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521940 This piece suggests they were fleeing rubber bullets and other police when they were cut off by this militarized police group and gunned down, and that others were just herded and basically executed: <i>The contrary view is that the striking miners were trying to escape police rubber bullets and tear gas when they ran at the heavily armed police task team (our version of SWAT). The result was the horrific images of a dozen or so men gunned down in a fusillade of automatic fire.</i> <i>It is becoming clear to this reporter that heavily armed police hunted down and killed the miners in cold blood. A minority were killed in the filmed event where police claim they acted in self-defence. The rest was murder on a massive scale.</i> http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-08-30-the-murder-fields-of-marikana-the-cold-murder-fields-of-marikana This piece suggests they were fleeing rubber bullets and other police when they were cut off by this militarized police group and gunned down, and that others were just herded and basically executed:

The contrary view is that the striking miners were trying to escape police rubber bullets and tear gas when they ran at the heavily armed police task team (our version of SWAT). The result was the horrific images of a dozen or so men gunned down in a fusillade of automatic fire.

It is becoming clear to this reporter that heavily armed police hunted down and killed the miners in cold blood. A minority were killed in the filmed event where police claim they acted in self-defence. The rest was murder on a massive scale.

http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-08-30-the-murder-fields-of-marikana-the-cold-murder-fields-of-marikana

]]> By: strangefriend http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521929 strangefriend Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:46:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521929  makes no sense because the situation was why they invented TEAR GAS & water cannon . . . http://youtu.be/h4UhM-FTtJQ  makes no sense because the situation was why they invented TEAR GAS & water cannon . . .

http://youtu.be/h4UhM-FTtJQ

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521890 Antinous / Moderator Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:07:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521890 Some states have a law called Felony Murder in which you can be charged with murder if anyone is killed while you're committing a felony, even if the killing was done by the police.  There have been a number of high-profile cases. Some states have a law called Felony Murder in which you can be charged with murder if anyone is killed while you’re committing a felony, even if the killing was done by the police.  There have been a number of high-profile cases.

]]> By: Bobsyeruncle http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521886 Bobsyeruncle Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:03:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521886  Well, it works in Iran, doesn't it? ;)  Well, it works in Iran, doesn’t it? ;)

]]> By: TheBileTick http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521858 TheBileTick Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:45:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521858 Deaths on both sides prior to the shooting. It's a lot more complex than just shooting rowdy protesters. Deaths on both sides prior to the shooting. It’s a lot more complex than just shooting rowdy protesters.

]]> By: benenglish http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521842 benenglish Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521842 "So if I'm driving the getaway car and you go in and shoot up a bank, it's "perverse" that I can be charged in the murder?" In my opinion, yes.  I'd be willing to make allowances for charging you with murder only if prior knowledge and intent can be established.  But if you didn't know your partner was going to go apeshit inside the bank, you shouldn't be charged with going apeshit yourself. “So if I’m driving the getaway car and you go in and shoot up a bank, it’s “perverse” that I can be charged in the murder?”

In my opinion, yes.  I’d be willing to make allowances for charging you with murder only if prior knowledge and intent can be established.  But if you didn’t know your partner was going to go apeshit inside the bank, you shouldn’t be charged with going apeshit yourself.

]]> By: Marja Erwin http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521800 Marja Erwin Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:11:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521800 Except after the Ludlow Massacre. And the Verona Massacre. And probably some other cases I can't quite remember just yet. And they killed a former governor of Idaho and tried to frame union organizers. Except after the Ludlow Massacre. And the Verona Massacre. And probably some other cases I can’t quite remember just yet. And they killed a former governor of Idaho and tried to frame union organizers.

]]> By: Navin_Johnson http://boingboing.net/2012/08/30/miners-to-be-charged-with-murd.html#comment-1521791 Navin_Johnson Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:00:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=178753#comment-1521791 <i>The strikers who fired on police (a small percentage) are responsible for the deaths.</i> I think the responsibility lies with the company and the corrupt state that exploits the workers, and allows such desperate conditions and pitiful wages. Humans will very peacefully do a lot of miserable, dangerous, and slave wage work before they're finally pushed to clash with militarized police over it. The strikers who fired on police (a small percentage) are responsible for the deaths.

I think the responsibility lies with the company and the corrupt state that exploits the workers, and allows such desperate conditions and pitiful wages. Humans will very peacefully do a lot of miserable, dangerous, and slave wage work before they’re finally pushed to clash with militarized police over it.

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