Comments on: Cheating F1 team wins the right to deduct its fines from its taxes

By: Bill Vincent

Bill Vincent — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 03:03:00 +0000

True, but that represents a significant reduction in their tax liability.

By: Bill Vincent

Bill Vincent — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 03:00:00 +0000

Because that’s millions of dollars NOT going into the tax coffers.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 21:56:00 +0000

Fans want to see racing, not strategy.

By: Vole_tron

Vole_tron — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:54:00 +0000

Yours is not a like-for-like comparison.

The team did not lose the race, they had a secure 1-2 finish and swapped the positions of their two drivers. This is standard practice in team-based motorsport – especially towards the end of a season – and definitely not against the rules at that time.

Having said all that, the rumours were that Schumacher had a clause written into his Ferrari teammates’ contracts forcing them to always defer to him. If true, that is objectionable.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:01:00 +0000

This was covered several times in the recent Olympics when a number of athletes were thrown out for losing matches in order to match up with weaker opponents in later stages of the competition. The assumption in sport is that every athlete does his or her best. Otherwise, the fans are just watching a big chess game, which frankly is not going to be of interest to most racing fans.

By: Boundegar

Boundegar — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:45:00 +0000

Not exactly. You can net your losses against your wins, if you have any. Very few gamblers have more wins than losses.

By: Boundegar

Boundegar — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:44:00 +0000

Well I guess in Mafia circles it might be… but then, you’re probably not declaring all your income, so I wouldn’t risk any funky business expenses.

By: nettdata

nettdata — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:04:00 +0000

Here’s a pic of us doing a driver change… you can see things get pretty hectic, and all the while a Grand Am official is sitting there in pit lane watching for infractions.

By: nettdata

nettdata — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:00:00 +0000

In our case in Grand Am, we’d get fined for any minor infraction that was done by the team that didn’t warrant something like a drive-through penalty, etc. For instance, too many men over the pit wall, having something (like a tire, tool, lug nut) go outside of your pit box during a pit stop, leaving something in your pit box after a pit stop (like a lug nut, etc), all were worthy of fines.

They can also be somewhat arbitrary. For instance, about 3 years ago, when we were competing in the 24 hours of Daytona, it was the closest finish in the race’s history (at least in the Daytona Prototype, or DP class). There were 4 cars within seconds of each other racing the last few laps of the race, going for the checkered flag, after a solid 24 hours of racing. Exciting shit, to say the least. Race Control came on the radio and said, in no uncertain terms, that if any GT class car (like us) got in their way, or fucked with the finish of the race in any way, the team owner would be summoned to the head office, and they’d better bring their checkbook.

By: ando bobando

ando bobando — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 16:20:00 +0000

Ahh yes, makes sense!

By: Jonathan Roberts

Jonathan Roberts — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:21:00 +0000

It seems to be part of team strategy, the same as Wiggins/Froome during the Tour de France. You just decide how you want to support the main goal and go with that, even if it doesn’t seem to make sense from a individual race standpoint.

By: Noddy Ninetythree

Noddy Ninetythree — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:16:00 +0000

I don’t have a thing to add to the conversation as it has all been stated. I simply want to say that I love my favorite sport being discussed on BB.

it makes me feel all warm inside, much like whenever Exene or X is mentioned on these pages.

By: AlexG55

AlexG55 — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:51:00 +0000

Possibly HMRC care because the FIA is based in France, and therefore won’t be paying taxes to them on it…

By: bkad

bkad — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:52:00 +0000

Agreed. This like being ‘fined’ for cancelling your cell phone contract early. It’s not a criminal punishment or a civil penalty, just a legal business transaction.

By: ando bobando

ando bobando — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:45:00 +0000

So does this mean that the FIA has to declare the 34M as income and thus pay taxes on it? In which case, who really cares?

By: Thorzdad

Thorzdad — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:53:00 +0000

The McLaren fine is neither Civil nor Criminal. It’s internal to the operations of F1 and the FIA. As such, the fine IS a business expense.

I’m really not sure why this made it as a BB feature. Businesses have always been able to deduct operating expenses.

By: Vole_tron

Vole_tron — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:09:00 +0000

It’s a team sport. Why shouldn’t a team maximise the points of their driver best placed to win the drivers championship? In what way is that cheating?

By: Nick Hayday

Nick Hayday — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:01:00 +0000

Everyone in F1 gets fined for not being Ferrari

By: toyg

toyg — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:11:00 +0000

If you seriously think that was the first instance of team-play in F1 (or any motor-racing format, for what matters), you’re very naive. If anything, it was a naked display of raw power from Schumacher, who’s been a shark his entire career… like pretty much any lead-driver in the paddock, including people who never won anything. That sport is so dangerous, you have to be either fanatically competitive (like Schumacher, Senna or Prost were) or simply borderline insane (like Eddie Irvine, Nigel Mansell, or pretty much everyone in F1 before the ’90s) to put yourself in a small metal box attached to a monster experimental engine that could explode any minute, and shoot down a curvy track at NASA speeds. At that level, platitudes about teammates are just that, platitudes; it’s actually refreshing when you see people like Schumacher not giving a f*ck about hypocrisy.

By: Loudmouthman

Loudmouthman — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:54:00 +0000

Depending on if the fine as a Civil or Criminal action ; some fines are tax deductible others are not ; this is not exclusive to sports http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim42515.htm

By: Dlo Burns

Dlo Burns — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:47:00 +0000

What kind of things do you get fined over? I guess for some reason I grew up with the naive notion that people get fined as a last resort before getting kicked out of whatever league they were in.

By: CH

CH — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:46:00 +0000

But what if one part of establishing yourself as a successful businessman/politician/evil overlord is having a mistress or two. Can you then deduct any expenses related to the mistress as a business expense?

Oh, and I guess the package also should include a pool boy for the bored-at-home-trophy-wife.

By: dayhat

dayhat — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:14:00 +0000

There is an analogous situation playing out in Australia. A wealthy benefactor (who set up the MONA art gallery in Tasmania) who arrived at his riches via complex gambling routines is being chased by the tax department. Previously they had quailed from pursuing gambles due to the concerns that if you start taxing gamblers, they might want to start claiming any gambling loss as a business expense!
http://theconversation.edu.au/sex-death-and-taxes-how-should-the-tax-system-treat-mona-founder-david-walsh-8463

By: Halloween_Jack

Halloween_Jack — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 04:55:00 +0000

So, can Lance Armstrong deduct the cost of his EPO from all those years?

By: robuluz

robuluz — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 04:02:00 +0000

Whoa yeah. Those kind of mistresses.

By: Jesseham

Jesseham — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 03:02:00 +0000

I always wondered about that and I just realized – It’s because they’re gambling wins for the casino, who then (maybe) pays taxes on them

By: eee

eee — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:59:00 +0000

F1 is a team sport, and as such, the team shall decide what is best in terms of overall results. *Team* being the operative word, and this incident contributed to an eventual clarification to the sporting regs covering such maneuvers.

As others have stated, the fines are a part of doing business in the sport. Nothing nefarious going on here, in my opinion.

By: spacedoggy

spacedoggy — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:43:00 +0000

… I’m waiting…

By: Boundegar

Boundegar — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:37:00 +0000

Actually, fines for cheating would be deductible for players of every sport. This is proof that sports are not sports. No, wait…

By: spacedoggy

spacedoggy — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:07:00 +0000

F1 is not a real sport. and I used to love it, watch races with my grandad etc. until the race in 2002 Rubens B. was ordered to slow his winning car to a near stop on the finish line. So that M. Sch could take first place even though he was already several races ahead in terms of points. I turned the TV off in disgust and never watched that crap again. I may as well watch WWE. the point here is if a fine for cheating, is a tax deductible calculated risk expense, and not a punishment, then it’s proof F1 is not a Sport, but a sports themed TV Show.

It’s hard to find footage of it, Bernie Eccelston must be no stranger to the DMCA request form…
this vid doesn’t show that there was nearly a riot in the stands over it in the stands…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNWbvgHhngg