Comments on: Judge considers unusual plea deal for accused WikiLeaks source Manning

By: tré

tré — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 21:22:00 +0000

There’s enough doubt to where we should at the very very least be using neutral language, ie “Private” as opposed to “Bradley.”

By: John Aguirre

John Aguirre — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 19:16:00 +0000

The quote is directly from the transcript of the IM conversation of Pvt. Manning and Adrian Lamo. If memory serves me right, a lot of ellipses were used, as they commonly are in such IM conversations. I do not think it’s part of any redaction. I would have to look up the transcript again to be sure, though.

EDIT: Found the transcript: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/

By: strangefriend

strangefriend — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 18:11:00 +0000

Bankers. What, do you believe that the mortgage crisis was caused by minorities? Dude, step away from Fox News.

By: strangefriend

strangefriend — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 18:06:00 +0000

Hey, ChiD, ‘<' means 'lesser than.' I think you need to edit your post. Or were you agreeing with me that Manning's leaks were a good thing? If so, sorry, my bad.

By: strangefriend

strangefriend — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 17:44:00 +0000

Informing the public of war crimes & other official malfeasance > intentional law breaking.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 23:29:00 +0000

I think that you’ve conflated My Lai with Mai Tai.

By: Brad Bell

Brad Bell — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:56:00 +0000

The S&L scandal in the 80s provides a model for what kind of prosecutions could be expected: a relatively teeny scandal with thousands of cases. In contrast, a scandal of unprecedented magnitude generates nearly zero prosecutions.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:18:00 +0000

Is there a version of that quote that isn’t full of ellipses?

By: Boundegar

Boundegar — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:03:00 +0000

Actually, many of the bad actors in the subprime mess are well known, and basking in their billions, and the DOJ has made it clear they have no intention to prosecute. This is not secret information, unless you work for the MSM.

By: travtastic

travtastic — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 21:36:00 +0000

there were horrible things happening on both sides during that conflict

Oh, so there were atrocities being committed by the VC, the US, and the innocent civilians that we were butchering?

By: ChicagoD

ChicagoD — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 21:25:00 +0000

Fortunately it is entirely irrelevant that you would use your personal morality instead of laws to govern a country.

Unless you’re a dictator. You’re not a dictator, are you?

By: wysinwyg

wysinwyg — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 21:00:00 +0000

Unfortunately for your argument you are talking to someone who does not believe law is equivalent to morality. As Xploder points out, the ones breaking the laws most egregiously are also the ones writing and enforcing the laws in the first place.

So a good-faith (bad-practice) whisteblower like Manning gets something between 16 years and life and the ghouls who perpetrated the war in Iraq are free from consequences.

After all, we must always look forward and not backward — unless it’s regular folks on the docket.

Scienter.

By: Xploder

Xploder — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:53:00 +0000

Personally, I think that the law should be applied equally to everyone. It’s too damn bad that the ones that need it applied to them the most are the ones that make the damn laws so we’re screwed.

By: EH

EH — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:43:00 +0000

More transparency always increases democracy. It’s fundamentally better that Manning did this, regardless of intent or predictive powers.

By: ChicagoD

ChicagoD — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:39:00 +0000

Who, and I mean with specificity and in keeping with the actual laws we have, would you like to prosecute for the financial crisis. Don’t say “bankers” because that’s not an answer.

The Iraq war is a somewhat easier case, but you’fd have to show scienter on the part of the people building the case, rather than just stupidity and blind belief.

By: wysinwyg

wysinwyg — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:30:00 +0000

1. Iraq war.
2. 2008 financial crisis.

Two huge crimes; not only has no one been punished for either but we’ve been assured by the federal government than no one ever will be punished for either. It’s fairly straight-forward to demonstrate that both of these crimes caused a fair number of deaths and other forms of human misery.

Manning gets no less than 16 years for a crime that has not been linked to any deaths; the misery seems to consist of embarrassment on the part of a few diplomats.

You law-and-order types always seem kinda selective about who the law gets applied to.

By: Xploder

Xploder — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:14:00 +0000

Yeah, I haven’t heard of any either. What I was saying was that there is always the possibility of deaths caused by leaked information. I apologize as I should have tried to be more clear.

By: Xploder

Xploder — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:12:00 +0000

Call me whatever the hell you want to. My son is gay and that’s just peachy keen with me. I’ve never had any problem with transgendered individuals. The reason I used the (s)he was because I don’t really know if I should be calling him he or she so I combined the two. If you think that makes me sound like a transphobe then maybe you shouldn’t look for things that aren’t there.

By: Xploder

Xploder — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:10:00 +0000

Sorry. I really didn’t mean to sound so jingoistic. I think that I’ll just have to be a disagreeing asshole because I disagree with your assessment that he should get a Medal of Freedom for breaking regulations. That’s totally asinine.

By: ChickieD

ChickieD — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:06:00 +0000

Wow. Interesting. I learned something new today. Somehow it changes my perception of this case but I can’t grab hold of exactly how.

By: Xploder

Xploder — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:05:00 +0000

I agree with you on this part. Unfortunately, I’ve been without sleep for three days now and my mind was focused only on what I see as the soldier aspect 0 as in what if one of my buddies were to be killed because of this. You’re right of course. It’s entirely possible that it helped prevent more killings. I unfortunately doubt it though. Having spent ten years in the Army, I know how the military mind tends to work. To be honest, if you’re in a battle zone, you’re senses are seriously keyed up to the point where you tend to shoot anything that you see. There are very few soldiers that have the training to stay aware enough to avoid the killing of unarmed opponents.

When it comes to the Mai Lai incident, I don’t think it would have made that much of a difference overall as there were horrible things happening on both sides during that conflict. That’s just the one that got out. There are probably a lot more that we’ll never know about

By: Xploder

Xploder — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:00:00 +0000

Agreed 100%. Nobody including known prisoners of war should ever be subjected to that sort of thing. It’s ridiculous in this day and age.

By: ChicagoD

ChicagoD — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:47:00 +0000

Intentional law breaking without knowing whether you are actually doing a good thing for the country < accidental medals

By: efergus3

efergus3 — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:20:00 +0000

Oddly enough, I’m still waiting to hear about all those deaths caused by the leaked info. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And … Wait – could they be lying to us?!

By: strangefriend

strangefriend — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:17:00 +0000

Oh, there have been people who got medals ‘by accident’ before. It’s not unheard of.

By: DisGuest

DisGuest — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:07:00 +0000

I didn’t know either.

By: Origami_Isopod

Origami_Isopod — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:58:00 +0000

For someone who “doesn’t care” about Manning’s gender identity, you’re doing a great job of sounding like a transphobe who thinks that transgender is something to sneer at.

By: ChicagoD

ChicagoD — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:51:00 +0000

Manning may have done the country a service. Of course, since neither Manning nor Wikileaks actually reviewed what was being released, that would be entirely by accident, wouldn’t it?

Ah, the accidental Medal of Freedom. The best kind.

By: strangefriend

strangefriend — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:26:00 +0000

To be honest, Xploder, we don’t care about your jingoistic BS about Ms./Mr. Manning. The DOD has admitted they can’t point to any death caused by the leaks, & the ‘aiding the enemy’ charge is just to whip up hysteria. Manning’s actions were the highest sort of patriotism. S/he should get a Medal of Freedom.

By: Brainspore

Brainspore — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:24:00 +0000

Who knows if what (s)he released helped kill other soldiers and civilians.

Or, conversely, if it helped prevent the killings of other soldiers and civilians. Would we have been better off if Mai Lai had been successfully hushed up?