Comments on: Instagram responds to TOS outrage: "Thank you, and we’re listening" http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 23 May 2013 01:12:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Marjo Aho http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1613015 Marjo Aho Fri, 21 Dec 2012 01:27:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1613015 Instagram filters already feel as fresh, new and inspiring as the Macarena. Instagram filters already feel as fresh, new and inspiring as the Macarena.

]]> By: donniebnyc http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1612842 donniebnyc Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1612842 The EFF is correct in its assessment.  Instagram's "apology" statement is disingenuous at best, or they (or their lawyers) are morons for creating a TOS that didn't reflect what they meant. The EFF is correct in its assessment.  Instagram’s “apology” statement is disingenuous at best, or they (or their lawyers) are morons for creating a TOS that didn’t reflect what they meant.

]]> By: donniebnyc http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1612836 donniebnyc Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:55:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1612836 I wasn't agreeing with you.  The meaning of "a business or other entity may pay us to display your username, likeness, photos...in connection with paid or sponsored content or promotions" is quite clearly that you are granting instagram a license to sell the right to use your content to a third party.  You may still retain copyright to your content (this is probably addressed elsewhere in the TOS) but the meaning of this language concerning third party usage isn't confusing at all.  My point was that if instagram was reserving this right only for themselves then that is exactly what the TOS would have said. Disclaimer:  IANAL I wasn’t agreeing with you.  The meaning of “a business or other entity may pay us to display your username, likeness, photos…in connection with paid or sponsored content or promotions” is quite clearly that you are granting instagram a license to sell the right to use your content to a third party.  You may still retain copyright to your content (this is probably addressed elsewhere in the TOS) but the meaning of this language concerning third party usage isn’t confusing at all. 

My point was that if instagram was reserving this right only for themselves then that is exactly what the TOS would have said.

Disclaimer:  IANAL

]]> By: Coal Miki-Restall http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1612370 Coal Miki-Restall Thu, 20 Dec 2012 03:27:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1612370  Exactly my point. Only the one they actually said is valid. The idea that anybody can buy your pictures from Instagram shows a criminal lack of understanding of the English language (and not even legalese) and I strongly suspect it was done on purpose.  Exactly my point. Only the one they actually said is valid. The idea that anybody can buy your pictures from Instagram shows a criminal lack of understanding of the English language (and not even legalese) and I strongly suspect it was done on purpose.

]]> By: Ipo http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1612301 Ipo Thu, 20 Dec 2012 00:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1612301 It's hardly free if it costs you your pictures.  You are swearing, what is your outrage about?  What upsets you? It’s hardly free if it costs you your pictures. 
You are swearing, what is your outrage about? 
What upsets you?

]]> By: Lurking_Grue http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1612000 Lurking_Grue Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1612000 It did seem like they were planning on doing things like sponsored accounts and possibly mix your content on say a brand page if your photos were relevant.  Like your photo of a Coke can getting on a Coke instragram stream not stick your photos on a Coke billboard. It did seem like they were planning on doing things like sponsored accounts and possibly mix your content on say a brand page if your photos were relevant.  Like your photo of a Coke can getting on a Coke instragram stream not stick your photos on a Coke billboard.

]]> By: Derek C. F. Pegritz http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611955 Derek C. F. Pegritz Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611955 What are *you*, some kind of genius Instagram photographer who manages to make a dopey app for adding silly filters to pictures of people's lunch crank out masterpieces that are the envy of Robert Mapplethorpe *and* Ansel Adams? What are *you*, some kind of genius Instagram photographer who manages to make a dopey app for adding silly filters to pictures of people’s lunch crank out masterpieces that are the envy of Robert Mapplethorpe *and* Ansel Adams?

]]> By: Jim Saul http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611939 Jim Saul Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:31:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611939 The law evolves even as we write: "FTC Unveils New Rules to Protect Kids Online" http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2413411,00.asp The law evolves even as we write:

“FTC Unveils New Rules to Protect Kids Online”

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2413411,00.asp

]]> By: DisGuest http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611934 DisGuest Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:29:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611934 Me too! Me too!

]]> By: Jim Saul http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611920 Jim Saul Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611920 Indeed. Now off to practice medicine without a license, after taking a few confessions. Indeed. Now off to practice medicine without a license, after taking a few confessions.

]]> By: invictus http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611909 invictus Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611909 Good thing that this is all from a parallel universe, where Pacific and Eastern time zones are separated by four hours. Good thing that this is all from a parallel universe, where Pacific and Eastern time zones are separated by four hours.

]]> By: DisGuest http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611903 DisGuest Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611903 Thanks. You might have also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night too, no? :P Thanks.
You might have also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night too, no? :P

]]> By: Jim Saul http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611891 Jim Saul Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:43:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611891 Typically contracts involving minors are not void per se, but unilaterally voidable by the minor. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Instagram/Facebook TOS include an affirmation that the user is over 18, just to avoid liability for what the minor does or what is done to the minor... sexting, predation, etc. It only removes liability, doesn't make a contract enforceable, and only removes liability in very limited circumstances, often to different effect in different states. (not a lawyer, did go to law school 20 years ago, which is several epochs in law dog years) Typically contracts involving minors are not void per se, but unilaterally voidable by the minor. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Instagram/Facebook TOS include an affirmation that the user is over 18, just to avoid liability for what the minor does or what is done to the minor… sexting, predation, etc. It only removes liability, doesn’t make a contract enforceable, and only removes liability in very limited circumstances, often to different effect in different states.

(not a lawyer, did go to law school 20 years ago, which is several epochs in law dog years)

]]> By: invictus http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611890 invictus Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:42:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611890 Speaking of which, your webiste (as linked in your commenter profile) returns a 404 error for the root directory. Speaking of which, your webiste (as linked in your commenter profile) returns a 404 error for the root directory.

]]> By: Scott Wetterschneider http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611888 Scott Wetterschneider Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611888 About free software... This is a challenging issue now and will continue to be in the foreseeable future. Instagram, like many social sites, is a collaborative effort between the owners of the software and the community that voluntarily creates content. The time spent by the community as whole building a network that has value, is not trivial at all. The community has invested themselves in making Instagram great. Yes, it didn't cost anything to download and install, no disagreement there, it is free software. But that's not really the issue that's bugging people. People are upset because Instagram published a service agreement that indicated they are preparing to sell photos posted by users to 3rd party companies for advertising. About free software… This is a challenging issue now and will continue to be in the foreseeable future. Instagram, like many social sites, is a collaborative effort between the owners of the software and the community that voluntarily creates content. The time spent by the community as whole building a network that has value, is not trivial at all. The community has invested themselves in making Instagram great.

Yes, it didn’t cost anything to download and install, no disagreement there, it is free software. But that’s not really the issue that’s bugging people.

People are upset because Instagram published a service agreement that indicated they are preparing to sell photos posted by users to 3rd party companies for advertising.

]]> By: invictus http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611886 invictus Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611886 <a href="https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/12/instagrams-new-terms-service-sell-your-photos" rel="nofollow">The EFF puts it best</a> Update: Instagram has put out a statement on their blog saying that they plan to reconsider these changes, and will be modifying the language in the Terms.  Instagram also explained that they feel that the Terms were misinterpreted and they did not intend to sell photos.  Whatever their intention, the key is the language of the agreement.  We look forward to reviewing the revised Terms. The EFF puts it best

Update: Instagram has put out a statement on their blog saying that they plan to reconsider these changes, and will be modifying the language in the Terms.  Instagram also explained that they feel that the Terms were misinterpreted and they did not intend to sell photos.  Whatever their intention, the key is the language of the agreement.  We look forward to reviewing the revised Terms.

]]> By: areaman70 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611879 areaman70 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611879 Am I the only one who thinks Instagramed pics are horrible?  There is zero charm in using filters.  Think "Word Art." Am I the only one who thinks Instagramed pics are horrible?  There is zero charm in using filters.  Think “Word Art.”

]]> By: Albie Farinas http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611845 Albie Farinas Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:06:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611845 I don't know what the big deal is, or what all the outrage is all about...   I mean, it's fucking free....   I don’t know what the big deal is, or what all the outrage is all about…   I mean, it’s fucking free….  

]]> By: toyg http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611833 toyg Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611833 The sad reality of corporate doublespeak is that it has now destroyed any trust people ever had in their employers. If you work in a company with more than 1000 employees, and you receive an email saying "We're doing great! Soon there will be pay raises!", you'll automatically assume the worse: the pay raise will be less than what it was previously promised, or it will come with redundancies for other people, or we're really doing so bad that they have to blatantly lie just to stop you from running for the hills... The average person now assumes that his corporate masters lie pretty much all the time, which destroys morale and removes any pride in one's own work, hence reducing productivity and eventual profits. The sad reality of corporate doublespeak is that it has now destroyed any trust people ever had in their employers. If you work in a company with more than 1000 employees, and you receive an email saying “We’re doing great! Soon there will be pay raises!”, you’ll automatically assume the worse: the pay raise will be less than what it was previously promised, or it will come with redundancies for other people, or we’re really doing so bad that they have to blatantly lie just to stop you from running for the hills… The average person now assumes that his corporate masters lie pretty much all the time, which destroys morale and removes any pride in one’s own work, hence reducing productivity and eventual profits.

]]> By: benher http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611803 benher Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611803 The fact that they made certain features suddenly unavailable, thereby strong-arming an upgrade, which itself forced users into agreeing to the now infamous updated TOS, makes it more than a "misunderstanding." People sit around tables and draw this shit up on whiteboards. Zuck n' co trying to spin it to the tune of "We're the kinder gentler understanding mega-corp" which is equally worthy of eyerolls and about as believable as Rush Limbaugh trying to convince us that the GOP are all victims of a liberal conspiracy. Finally, as users, what did we expect? That an app with a quadrillion users and virtually zero downtime ran on rainbow twinkies and fairy poo? The fact that they made certain features suddenly unavailable, thereby strong-arming an upgrade, which itself forced users into agreeing to the now infamous updated TOS, makes it more than a “misunderstanding.” People sit around tables and draw this shit up on whiteboards.

Zuck n’ co trying to spin it to the tune of “We’re the kinder gentler understanding mega-corp” which is equally worthy of eyerolls and about as believable as Rush Limbaugh trying to convince us that the GOP are all victims of a liberal conspiracy.

Finally, as users, what did we expect? That an app with a quadrillion users and virtually zero downtime ran on rainbow twinkies and fairy poo?

]]> By: yadayada http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611758 yadayada Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611758 <blockquote>Upset Instagram users, does the promise to "listen" and "modify" make you feel comfortable remaining a user?</blockquote>Not a user, but, No: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/14/facebook_trust_dumb/

Upset Instagram users, does the promise to “listen” and “modify” make you feel comfortable remaining a user?

Not a user, but, No:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/14/facebook_trust_dumb/

]]> By: donniebnyc http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611753 donniebnyc Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611753 Lawyers get paid big bucks to write exactly what the client intends and nothing else.  If "for us, and only us, on our site" was what instagram wanted to say then you can be damn well sure that this is what the lawyers would have written.  This language was not an accident.  Believing otherwise is naive, at best. Lawyers get paid big bucks to write exactly what the client intends and nothing else.  If “for us, and only us, on our site” was what instagram wanted to say then you can be damn well sure that this is what the lawyers would have written. 

This language was not an accident.  Believing otherwise is naive, at best.

]]> By: SeattlePete http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611744 SeattlePete Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:02:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611744 How do I feel?  I feel like I am about to start paying Flickr $14/year again... How do I feel?  I feel like I am about to start paying Flickr $14/year again…

]]> By: Eric Reber http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611736 Eric Reber Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611736 I feel that the more serious issue is the lack of credit for the image creator nor the need to inform the creator that the images will be used. All of the snobbery over the medium "5 megapixel images are not important" is just that, snobbery. I have seen some really excellent work come out of Instagram and many serious photographers use it. Due to them walking back the ToS I will keep my existing images in there but will be using EyeEm which supports end user copyright as the repository for my future images. Given that Instagram is owned by Facebook, I don't want all of images in the hands of a single conglomerate.  I feel that the more serious issue is the lack of credit for the image creator nor the need to inform the creator that the images will be used. All of the snobbery over the medium “5 megapixel images are not important” is just that, snobbery. I have seen some really excellent work come out of Instagram and many serious photographers use it. Due to them walking back the ToS I will keep my existing images in there but will be using EyeEm which supports end user copyright as the repository for my future images. Given that Instagram is owned by Facebook, I don’t want all of images in the hands of a single conglomerate. 

]]> By: Kylini http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611728 Kylini Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:39:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611728 I appreciate how this blog post makes no mention of the bigger issue, the new transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide license to "use" your photos. Before, Instagram only held a limited license to displaying the photos on the service, a very clear license necessary to run the service, nothing more. Now, this new license basically gives Instagram the ability to sell your photos without recompense or permission (it's already granted by you). I could care less about advertising. I care more about them not clarifying how they "use" my photos. I appreciate how this blog post makes no mention of the bigger issue, the new transferable, sub-licensable, worldwide license to “use” your photos. Before, Instagram only held a limited license to displaying the photos on the service, a very clear license necessary to run the service, nothing more. Now, this new license basically gives Instagram the ability to sell your photos without recompense or permission (it’s already granted by you).

I could care less about advertising. I care more about them not clarifying how they “use” my photos.

]]> By: Nathan Hornby http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611704 Nathan Hornby Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:36:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611704 This problem would be solved if they wrote their agreements in English, rather than legalese. This problem would be solved if they wrote their agreements in English, rather than legalese.

]]> By: Shane Simmons http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611698 Shane Simmons Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:11:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611698 My goodness, I'm sure glad we're rushing headlong toward turning our data over  companies like Instagram and Facebook. I saw a post on Reddit where someone said something along the lines of, "I'm outraged at the new Instagram terms of service!  Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to download some music and movies."  Makes me want to open an Instagram account just to flood it with copyrighted content...let 'em claim ownership! My goodness, I’m sure glad we’re rushing headlong toward turning our data over  companies like Instagram and Facebook.

I saw a post on Reddit where someone said something along the lines of, “I’m outraged at the new Instagram terms of service!  Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to download some music and movies.”  Makes me want to open an Instagram account just to flood it with copyrighted content…let ‘em claim ownership!

]]> By: Samuel Valentine http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611694 Samuel Valentine Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:03:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611694 Is that you 13-Year-Old-Me? Is that you 13-Year-Old-Me?

]]> By: Dlo Burns http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611689 Dlo Burns Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611689 tumblr has plaintalk sections in their TOS tumblr has plaintalk sections in their TOS

]]> By: DisGuest http://boingboing.net/2012/12/18/instagram-responds-to-tos-outr.html#comment-1611685 DisGuest Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=201396#comment-1611685 Somewhat related, but also somewhat off topic….I have a question for the attorneys here: If there is a contract on Instagram, or anywhere else, that states that someone at age 13 agrees that their parents are aware that they have set up an account, how is this in any way enforceable? You are making the minor agree to the terms and not the adult. Since minors can't be held to contracts, with some exceptions, usually involving work, how does that remove liability? I suppose you might be able to prove an implied consent by the parents if the child shares photos with the adult guardians. But what happens in cases where the adults have no knowledge and the child has lied? Maybe a better example would be porn/otherwise adult sites requiring the user to be 18, how can they be protected by that agreement, even if fraudulent on the part of the "agreer", if that person isn't old enough to enter into a legal contract? How does this remove liability from the site? Sorry for the wordy wordiness. Somewhat related, but also somewhat off topic….I have a question for the attorneys here: If there is a contract on Instagram, or anywhere else, that states that someone at age 13 agrees that their parents are aware that they have set up an account, how is this in any way enforceable? You are making the minor agree to the terms and not the adult. Since minors can’t be held to contracts, with some exceptions, usually involving work, how does that remove liability? I suppose you might be able to prove an implied consent by the parents if the child shares photos with the adult guardians. But what happens in cases where the adults have no knowledge and the child has lied? Maybe a better example would be porn/otherwise adult sites requiring the user to be 18, how can they be protected by that agreement, even if fraudulent on the part of the “agreer”, if that person isn’t old enough to enter into a legal contract? How does this remove liability from the site?

Sorry for the wordy wordiness.

]]>