Comments on: Amazon kicks self-published Star Wars memoir out of the Kindle store on nebulous and nonsensical trademark grounds http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Mon, 20 May 2013 01:16:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: anansi133 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1617063 anansi133 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 06:23:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1617063 For an example of non-governmental censorship, see <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493459/" rel="nofollow">This Film is not yet Rated</a> For an example of non-governmental censorship, see This Film is not yet Rated

]]> By: anansi133 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1617062 anansi133 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 06:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1617062 If antitrust legislation actually worked, then you'd have a point. This thriving marketplace of competing outlets that you invoke, I don't see it. Free speech issues are much broader than censorship. The Streisand effect  means you've got to look a little deeper than crossed out words to see if a forum is being biased. If antitrust legislation actually worked, then you’d have a point. This thriving marketplace of competing outlets that you invoke, I don’t see it.

Free speech issues are much broader than censorship. The Streisand effect  means you’ve got to look a little deeper than crossed out words to see if a forum is being biased.

]]> By: Les Orchard http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1616836 Les Orchard Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:00:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1616836 Who's shut down? Buy & sell elsewhere - that's the point. And that's why it's not censorship. Free speech doesn't imply any private company has to publish your speech. When no company (not even your own) can publish your speech - that's censorship. Who’s shut down? Buy & sell elsewhere – that’s the point. And that’s why it’s not censorship. Free speech doesn’t imply any private company has to publish your speech. When no company (not even your own) can publish your speech – that’s censorship.

]]> By: anansi133 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1616827 anansi133 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:46:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1616827 I disagree. It's an issue if someone takes issue with it. It may not be a legal issue or a constitutional issue until a lawsuit is filed or a government gets involved. But it's an issue involving free speech if someone's being shut down based on the content of their speech. I disagree. It’s an issue if someone takes issue with it. It may not be a legal issue or a constitutional issue until a lawsuit is filed or a government gets involved. But it’s an issue involving free speech if someone’s being shut down based on the content of their speech.

]]> By: Joe Matise http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615849 Joe Matise Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:25:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615849 Cory, I do think there's a difference between the Kindle book and the physical book.  Kindle book is a hosted file, basically, right?  Like a YouTube video?  So the Kindle book could be DMCA'ed, while the physical book is not covered there.  (I don't know if Kindle books actually fall under the safe harbor clause, since they might be curated; but given all the self published whatnot and the AI-generated wikipedia books, I suspect Kindle books aren't meaningfully curated at least.) Beyond that, it could be simply different departments - a content curator in the Kindle department decided it was not acceptable and deleted it, and nobody in the physical book side made the same decision (or there is no equivalent person - after all, on the physical book side of things, publishers usually handle that part, and nobody would go after Amazon in any event, but rather the publisher, if there were infringement of trademark or copyright). Cory, I do think there’s a difference between the Kindle book and the physical book.  Kindle book is a hosted file, basically, right?  Like a YouTube video?  So the Kindle book could be DMCA’ed, while the physical book is not covered there.  (I don’t know if Kindle books actually fall under the safe harbor clause, since they might be curated; but given all the self published whatnot and the AI-generated wikipedia books, I suspect Kindle books aren’t meaningfully curated at least.)

Beyond that, it could be simply different departments – a content curator in the Kindle department decided it was not acceptable and deleted it, and nobody in the physical book side made the same decision (or there is no equivalent person – after all, on the physical book side of things, publishers usually handle that part, and nobody would go after Amazon in any event, but rather the publisher, if there were infringement of trademark or copyright).

]]> By: mb81 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615766 mb81 Thu, 27 Dec 2012 07:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615766 [In reply to Les Orchard above]: "If governments are involved, it's censorship." My point is that, since Amazon is not a government, it cannot practice censorship if your definition requires it to be a government for what it does to be called censorship. However, by a different definition, this may still be called censorship. And, by the way, its actions, no matter how you call them, are also ultimately backed by the legal threat of force, including guns, prison, and whatnot. [In reply to Les Orchard above]:
“If governments are involved, it’s censorship.”
My point is that, since Amazon is not a government, it cannot practice censorship if your definition requires it to be a government for what it does to be called censorship.
However, by a different definition, this may still be called censorship.
And, by the way, its actions, no matter how you call them, are also ultimately backed by the legal threat of force, including guns, prison, and whatnot.

]]> By: Halloween_Jack http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615680 Halloween_Jack Thu, 27 Dec 2012 03:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615680 I wondered at first if the problem had to do with the stylized Death Star, but then I looked up Phil Farrand's Star Trek "Nitpicker's Guide" series, and although he doesn't use the two words "Star Trek" in the title, he's got pretty accurate depictions of the different series' starships on the covers. Maybe Lucasfilms is more vigilant WRT spamming C&D notices than Paramount? I wondered at first if the problem had to do with the stylized Death Star, but then I looked up Phil Farrand’s Star Trek “Nitpicker’s Guide” series, and although he doesn’t use the two words “Star Trek” in the title, he’s got pretty accurate depictions of the different series’ starships on the covers. Maybe Lucasfilms is more vigilant WRT spamming C&D notices than Paramount?

]]> By: Marc Mielke http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615628 Marc Mielke Thu, 27 Dec 2012 00:50:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615628 IFAIK, you're using the trademarks exactly the way the trademark association instructed us to in every issue of WRITER'S DIGEST back in the day.  IFAIK, you’re using the trademarks exactly the way the trademark association instructed us to in every issue of WRITER’S DIGEST back in the day. 

]]> By: C.J. Casey http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615614 C.J. Casey Thu, 27 Dec 2012 00:05:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615614  I am pretty good about not pirating books since I'm a writer myself. However, I ALWAYS strip the DRM from e-books and make a back-up copy on a hard drive and a cloud-based storage locker. I consider it the 21st Century equivalent to putting a cover on a book I wish to keep.  I am pretty good about not pirating books since I’m a writer myself. However, I ALWAYS strip the DRM from e-books and make a back-up copy on a hard drive and a cloud-based storage locker. I consider it the 21st Century equivalent to putting a cover on a book I wish to keep.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615595 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 26 Dec 2012 22:29:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615595 <blockquote>Yes, "Yet." is kind of my point:</blockquote>Because waiting until things are irredeemably bad has worked so well in the past?

Yes, “Yet.” is kind of my point:

Because waiting until things are irredeemably bad has worked so well in the past?

]]> By: Warren_Terra http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615590 Warren_Terra Wed, 26 Dec 2012 22:08:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615590 Amazon is selling - in paper and electronic formats - <i>Star Wars On Trial</i>, which is basically an essay collection in which successful Sci-Fi authors discuss their reactions to the <i>Star Wars</i> movies and other products. I suppose the (established) publisher might have gotten special permission from Lucasarts for the book, but I don't know; the book is entirely commentary, of a sort requiring no permission at least in the US. I can certainly understand how automated filters could have tripped on a book with "Star Wars" in the title, but you'd think a human intervention and consideration would see sense prevail. Amazon is selling – in paper and electronic formats – Star Wars On Trial, which is basically an essay collection in which successful Sci-Fi authors discuss their reactions to the Star Wars movies and other products. I suppose the (established) publisher might have gotten special permission from Lucasarts for the book, but I don’t know; the book is entirely commentary, of a sort requiring no permission at least in the US.

I can certainly understand how automated filters could have tripped on a book with “Star Wars” in the title, but you’d think a human intervention and consideration would see sense prevail.

]]> By: Les Orchard http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615588 Les Orchard Wed, 26 Dec 2012 22:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615588 Yes, "Yet." is kind of my point: Save the word "censorship" for when it really matters and your choices are really taken away. If/when Amazon has governments preventing you from going elsewhere to buy or sell books, then it's time to worry. Yes, “Yet.” is kind of my point: Save the word “censorship” for when it really matters and your choices are really taken away. If/when Amazon has governments preventing you from going elsewhere to buy or sell books, then it’s time to worry.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615584 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615584 Yet. Yet.

]]> By: Les Orchard http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615579 Les Orchard Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615579 Yes. If governments are involved, it's censorship. If it's against the law, they will compel you to pay a fine (or go straight to jail). If you refuse to pay the fine, you're compelled to go to jail. If you refuse to go to jail or try to escape, they shoot you. None of the above is the case here with Amazon. Yes. If governments are involved, it’s censorship. If it’s against the law, they will compel you to pay a fine (or go straight to jail). If you refuse to pay the fine, you’re compelled to go to jail. If you refuse to go to jail or try to escape, they shoot you.

None of the above is the case here with Amazon.

]]> By: vonbobo http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615569 vonbobo Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615569 The book is also relating its subject matter to a health topic, so the difference in the two products is the medium used and the addition of the word "documentary". Looks like Amazon has done the right thing IMO, which could also imply Lucas has no grounds either. Here is a side thought I had...What about a professional book reviewer? They rely 100% on the original product, to then produce their own work. The book is also relating its subject matter to a health topic, so the difference in the two products is the medium used and the addition of the word “documentary”.
Looks like Amazon has done the right thing IMO, which could also imply Lucas has no grounds either.

Here is a side thought I had…What about a professional book reviewer? They rely 100% on the original product, to then produce their own work.

]]> By: mb81 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615567 mb81 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 21:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615567 Suppose the government doesn't shoot anyone --- suppose it's Singapore or Great Britain or India or France. Suppose they allow me to publish a book abroad, but forbid me from importing it. Anyone who really wants to read it can do so, but it's inconvenient, because they have to go abroad to buy it. Something like this happened with "Ulysses", as far as I know. Is this not censorship? Suppose the government doesn’t shoot anyone — suppose it’s Singapore or Great Britain or India or France. Suppose they allow me to publish a book abroad, but forbid me from importing it. Anyone who really wants to read it can do so, but it’s inconvenient, because they have to go abroad to buy it. Something like this happened with “Ulysses”, as far as I know.
Is this not censorship?

]]> By: habbi1974 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615554 habbi1974 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615554 i fail to see direct references to a copyrighted material in the cover of that documentary film. I think it's a matter of IP and there is no such thing on food, unless the film publishes secret recipes (!?). and well, while both did it for profit, at least the documentary seems to convey a message about the health risks of a poor diet. i fail to see direct references to a copyrighted material in the cover of that documentary film. I think it’s a matter of IP and there is no such thing on food, unless the film publishes secret recipes (!?). and well, while both did it for profit, at least the documentary seems to convey a message about the health risks of a poor diet.

]]> By: habbi1974 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615552 habbi1974 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:12:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615552 well, bob, the guy is SELLING the book, not giving it away. it can't be clearer than that. nothing wrong with it, but, i see clearly a search for profit. I can't believe he didn't see that one coming, given Lucas's reputation on the matter. well, bob, the guy is SELLING the book, not giving it away. it can’t be clearer than that. nothing wrong with it, but, i see clearly a search for profit. I can’t believe he didn’t see that one coming, given Lucas’s reputation on the matter.

]]> By: vonbobo http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615551 vonbobo Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:10:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615551 I suppose Super Size Me is should be removed as well? I suppose Super Size Me is should be removed as well?

]]> By: oasisob1 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615548 oasisob1 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615548 Hooray! Hooray!

]]> By: oasisob1 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615547 oasisob1 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 20:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615547 I haven't read the book (can't get it online, you know), so I can't say whether he's trying to monetize his way through a massive pop cultural and generational phenomenon, or whether he's just telling us the story of his life, which happens to have been structured by a massive pop cultural and generational phenomenon. But I suppose, I should be able to tell my story however I like, and if I happened to be drinking Southern Comfort during a momentous event in my life, I should be able to say so, without worrying that the makers of that fine product will come after me for their cut. I haven’t read the book (can’t get it online, you know), so I can’t say whether he’s trying to monetize his way through a massive pop cultural and generational phenomenon, or whether he’s just telling us the story of his life, which happens to have been structured by a massive pop cultural and generational phenomenon. But I suppose, I should be able to tell my story however I like, and if I happened to be drinking Southern Comfort during a momentous event in my life, I should be able to say so, without worrying that the makers of that fine product will come after me for their cut.

]]> By: Les Orchard http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615538 Les Orchard Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:48:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615538 Deciding what gets published (by Amazon) is *by definition* Amazon's business. Seriously, it is. The difference is you might get shot or jailed in China for publishing that book in the US. Amazon can't do a thing to you if you self-publish an ePub on your own web site in the US (presumably not hosted with AWS) The point is mere inconvenience versus real oppression. Deciding what gets published (by Amazon) is *by definition* Amazon’s business. Seriously, it is.

The difference is you might get shot or jailed in China for publishing that book in the US. Amazon can’t do a thing to you if you self-publish an ePub on your own web site in the US (presumably not hosted with AWS)

The point is mere inconvenience versus real oppression.

]]> By: mb81 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615533 mb81 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:42:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615533 There isn't a world government with a monopoly on free speech, either. If a book is banned in China, it can get published in the US. There are always other options. Does this make censorship in China bearable? I don't want to be too glib about it, but Amazon has no business deciding what gets published. There isn’t a world government with a monopoly on free speech, either. If a book is banned in China, it can get published in the US. There are always other options. Does this make censorship in China bearable?
I don’t want to be too glib about it, but Amazon has no business deciding what gets published.

]]> By: SomeGuyNamedMark http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615530 SomeGuyNamedMark Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:33:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615530 Anti-monopoly laws and anti-cartel laws were created for the very reason that a private company (or group) can disrupt the basic functioning of the nation. Anti-monopoly laws and anti-cartel laws were created for the very reason that a private company (or group) can disrupt the basic functioning of the nation.

]]> By: Les Orchard http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615526 Les Orchard Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:13:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615526 It's not a free speech issue per se, because Amazon is not a government. We have other publishing and purchasing options. That other options are not as appealing is unfortunate, but it's not like Amazon has an army and is raiding your house for typewriters. It's a lot easier (relatively speaking) to boycott Amazon and promote other publishers, than to rebel against a government. (In other words, if Amazon's behavior bothers you, you're still *free* to go elsewhere and do other things. It's just inconvenient, is all. It's not up to corporations like Amazon to make free speech convenient.) It’s not a free speech issue per se, because Amazon is not a government. We have other publishing and purchasing options.

That other options are not as appealing is unfortunate, but it’s not like Amazon has an army and is raiding your house for typewriters. It’s a lot easier (relatively speaking) to boycott Amazon and promote other publishers, than to rebel against a government.

(In other words, if Amazon’s behavior bothers you, you’re still *free* to go elsewhere and do other things. It’s just inconvenient, is all. It’s not up to corporations like Amazon to make free speech convenient.)

]]> By: thissortofthing http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615519 thissortofthing Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615519 Yes, it looks like the Kindle version of my book is back in the store. I haven't had an e-mail from Amazon yet but it does appear to be back. I am grateful to Boing Boing, Cory Doctorow and dozens of retweeters on Twitter for their support. I think they made the difference. Yes, it looks like the Kindle version of my book is back in the store. I haven’t had an e-mail from Amazon yet but it does appear to be back. I am grateful to Boing Boing, Cory Doctorow and dozens of retweeters on Twitter for their support. I think they made the difference.

]]> By: Boomzilla http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615513 Boomzilla Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:51:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615513 It's available for Kindle on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Long-Time-Ago-Growing-ebook/dp/B008XRNRJ8  It’s available for Kindle on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Long-Time-Ago-Growing-ebook/dp/B008XRNRJ8 

]]> By: habbi1974 http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615512 habbi1974 Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:49:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615512 the line is, you are NOT profiting from using such brands while reading this post. the line is, you are NOT profiting from using such brands while reading this post.

]]> By: That Neil Guy http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615511 That Neil Guy Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:47:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615511 It looks like it can be ordered now. http://amzn.to/U9EAeP I think I'll try it... It looks like it can be ordered now. http://amzn.to/U9EAeP

I think I’ll try it…

]]> By: spacedoggy http://boingboing.net/2012/12/26/amazon-kicks-self-published-st.html#comment-1615510 spacedoggy Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:39:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=202844#comment-1615510 Perhaps Trinity College Dublin should request that Star Wars Ep II be removed from Amazon on similar grounds... http://www.rte.ie/ten/2002/1111/starwars.html pics here... http://scyfilove.com/1948/visit-the-jedi-archives-in-real-life-at-trinity-college-dublin/ Perhaps Trinity College Dublin should request that Star Wars Ep II be removed from Amazon on similar grounds…

http://www.rte.ie/ten/2002/1111/starwars.html

pics here…
http://scyfilove.com/1948/visit-the-jedi-archives-in-real-life-at-trinity-college-dublin/

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