Comments on: HOWTO get stuff made in China http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sun, 19 May 2013 00:05:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Thomas Shaddack http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1622317 Thomas Shaddack Tue, 08 Jan 2013 07:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1622317 If the customs goons weren't able to detect lead-containing toothpaste and melamine-enriched pet food, what's the chance they will be able to spot a lead-containing chip between many identical-looking chips on an otherwise "compliant" board?  The issue with omitted /NOPB may be formation of intermetallics with some solder alloys (typically bismuth-containing ones form low-melting eutectics with lead that can lead (heh) to power transistors dropping off boards under load), but otherwise I'd consider it harmless, maybe even beneficial due to the lack of incidence of tin whiskers in tin-lead alloys. Those buggers can grow even through conformal coatings. If they'd only grow into the arses of the RoHS eurobastards... If the customs goons weren’t able to detect lead-containing toothpaste and melamine-enriched pet food, what’s the chance they will be able to spot a lead-containing chip between many identical-looking chips on an otherwise “compliant” board? 

The issue with omitted /NOPB may be formation of intermetallics with some solder alloys (typically bismuth-containing ones form low-melting eutectics with lead that can lead (heh) to power transistors dropping off boards under load), but otherwise I’d consider it harmless, maybe even beneficial due to the lack of incidence of tin whiskers in tin-lead alloys. Those buggers can grow even through conformal coatings. If they’d only grow into the arses of the RoHS eurobastards…

]]> By: bridgebuilder78 http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1622153 bridgebuilder78 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 00:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1622153 It's all hype. Simple as that. We have already exported the entire supply chain to that part of the world, starting in the late 70s'. These jobs are anchored there. Whatever we can get back in the short to medium term are only marginal at best. But the media needed an upbeat story... It’s all hype. Simple as that. We have already exported the entire supply chain to that part of the world, starting in the late 70s’. These jobs are anchored there. Whatever we can get back in the short to medium term are only marginal at best. But the media needed an upbeat story…

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1622067 Antinous / Moderator Mon, 07 Jan 2013 22:27:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1622067 It's not really a cultural stereotype when the problems are almost universally noted, including by Chinese people doing business in China. It’s not really a cultural stereotype when the problems are almost universally noted, including by Chinese people doing business in China.

]]> By: glaborous_immolate http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621856 glaborous_immolate Mon, 07 Jan 2013 19:07:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621856 Nobody bothered by the cultural stereotyping going on here? Nobody bothered by the cultural stereotyping going on here?

]]> By: ChickieD http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621755 ChickieD Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:45:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621755 I work in Engineering and I also have worked in software development. My experience has been that with Engineering there are so many ways to screw up something. Every part has to specified exactly, every material. The physical engineering is the hardest to get right. The circuit design and circuit boards are pretty quick to turn around and reconfigure, but, man, get a cabinet ordered with the wrong kind of paint, or order a button board that ends up having faulty glue, or send the plastics molding company the wrong or incomplete specs and you can end up with a delay, a recall, or product that never makes it to the light of day.   From what I've seen with the work we do in Korea (for products that involve manufacturing capabilities we do not have in the US), we let them handle a lot of the engineering and purchase a more or less finished product, which we incorporate into our products. Or we start with a product they developed and then we tweak it for our market, but the Korean firm still does the actual design and engineering work. From what I've read, this is the strength of working with China, that they have engineers that will do the design work for you and the companies also have easy access to lots of parts. I doubt that many people working with China need to be as involved with the manufacturing process as this manual is spelling out. I work in Engineering and I also have worked in software development. My experience has been that with Engineering there are so many ways to screw up something. Every part has to specified exactly, every material. The physical engineering is the hardest to get right. The circuit design and circuit boards are pretty quick to turn around and reconfigure, but, man, get a cabinet ordered with the wrong kind of paint, or order a button board that ends up having faulty glue, or send the plastics molding company the wrong or incomplete specs and you can end up with a delay, a recall, or product that never makes it to the light of day.  

From what I’ve seen with the work we do in Korea (for products that involve manufacturing capabilities we do not have in the US), we let them handle a lot of the engineering and purchase a more or less finished product, which we incorporate into our products. Or we start with a product they developed and then we tweak it for our market, but the Korean firm still does the actual design and engineering work. From what I’ve read, this is the strength of working with China, that they have engineers that will do the design work for you and the companies also have easy access to lots of parts. I doubt that many people working with China need to be as involved with the manufacturing process as this manual is spelling out.

]]> By: jackbird http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621718 jackbird Mon, 07 Jan 2013 15:27:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621718 That's because you need a 1935 labor movement to remind them. That’s because you need a 1935 labor movement to remind them.

]]> By: Eric Garner http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621638 Eric Garner Mon, 07 Jan 2013 03:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621638 why not? why not?

]]> By: AnthonyC http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621605 AnthonyC Mon, 07 Jan 2013 01:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621605 What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.  What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan. 

]]> By: Robert http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621475 Robert Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:02:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621475 'No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".' ‘No wonder this circuit failed. It says “Made in Japan”.’

]]> By: Robert http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621473 Robert Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621473 Well, if Kurzweil is to be believed, the transition to the postscarcity economy will, starting now, be at most 30 years or so. Then we party. Well, if Kurzweil is to be believed, the transition to the postscarcity economy will, starting now, be at most 30 years or so. Then we party.

]]> By: Artor http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621412 Artor Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621412 Productive, sure. I won't dispute that, but the quality of what they usually produce is not up to western standards in most cases. "Made in China" is a mark of quality to nobody anywhere. Productive, sure. I won’t dispute that, but the quality of what they usually produce is not up to western standards in most cases. “Made in China” is a mark of quality to nobody anywhere.

]]> By: travtastic http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621396 travtastic Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621396 I can't speak for electronics manufacture, but I can tell you that making automotive parts for American companies isn't much different, aside from having a shared language. I can’t speak for electronics manufacture, but I can tell you that making automotive parts for American companies isn’t much different, aside from having a shared language.

]]> By: DeWynken http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621362 DeWynken Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621362 Eventually they'll just die. I think that was the plan from the outset. (heavy sarcasm here. I am the grandson of a now gone master engineer and mold maker who was well respected as one of the country's few mold maker/plastic injection sole propieter companies for many years). Worst thing was watching him sell off the machines for pennies on the dollar when he closed shop.  Eventually they’ll just die. I think that was the plan from the outset. (heavy sarcasm here. I am the grandson of a now gone master engineer and mold maker who was well respected as one of the country’s few mold maker/plastic injection sole propieter companies for many years). Worst thing was watching him sell off the machines for pennies on the dollar when he closed shop. 

]]> By: phillip wong http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621346 phillip wong Sun, 06 Jan 2013 09:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621346 Actually, no. Chinese generally are more productive people in the entire planet. Actually, no. Chinese generally are more productive people in the entire planet.

]]> By: Wooster http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621301 Wooster Sun, 06 Jan 2013 06:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621301 Agreed. I skimmed it, and it sounded just like my experience working in a manufacturing in the States. The BOM has to be precise, right down to the packaging, or you'll have problems. You get your fastest turn, and highest quality, working with someone close by. Communication matters. Agreed. I skimmed it, and it sounded just like my experience working in a manufacturing in the States. The BOM has to be precise, right down to the packaging, or you’ll have problems. You get your fastest turn, and highest quality, working with someone close by. Communication matters.

]]> By: bcsizemo http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621298 bcsizemo Sun, 06 Jan 2013 05:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621298 You forgot to add the part where all those engineers and scientist will automatically gain that 5 years of experience that every employer is looking for, even for the most mundane task. You forgot to add the part where all those engineers and scientist will automatically gain that 5 years of experience that every employer is looking for, even for the most mundane task.

]]> By: mrdibblesworth http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621284 mrdibblesworth Sun, 06 Jan 2013 05:05:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621284 I'd like to hear more about these Nords. I’d like to hear more about these Nords.

]]> By: Rindan http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621268 Rindan Sun, 06 Jan 2013 04:47:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621268 It actually isn't all that optimistic. The point of manufacturing getting the preferential treatment is because it gives low skilled labor something to do, something which I explicitly isn't going to come back. While there do exist places with lower wages than China, they generally have large problems. What made China so appealing was not just low wages, but infrastructure to handle manufacturing... stuff like roads that can handle trucks, constant power, solid communication networks, and corruption at tolerable levels.More importantly, the rise of Chinese wages is only part of the story. The real story is the devaluation of human work. The reason why semi-conductors are coming back to the US has nothing to do with Chinese wages. It has everything to do with automation. You just don't need all that many button pushers to run a modern day semi-conductor plant these days. Chinese labor could be free, and you would still pick a plant in the US that has the engineers and designers on site that can be easily supervised. The value of unskilled labor is dropping. It is going to be zero one day. It actually isn’t all that optimistic. The point of manufacturing getting the preferential treatment is because it gives low skilled labor something to do, something which I explicitly isn’t going to come back.

While there do exist places with lower wages than China, they generally have large problems. What made China so appealing was not just low wages, but infrastructure to handle manufacturing… stuff like roads that can handle trucks, constant power, solid communication networks, and corruption at tolerable levels.More importantly, the rise of Chinese wages is only part of the story. The real story is the devaluation of human work. The reason why semi-conductors are coming back to the US has nothing to do with Chinese wages. It has everything to do with automation. You just don’t need all that many button pushers to run a modern day semi-conductor plant these days. Chinese labor could be free, and you would still pick a plant in the US that has the engineers and designers on site that can be easily supervised. The value of unskilled labor is dropping. It is going to be zero one day.

]]> By: Artor http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621256 Artor Sun, 06 Jan 2013 04:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621256 There's cultural issues to consider too. Also, although our educational system is going to crap, it's still better than most of the workers in Chinese factories, who probably grew up on farms that hadn't seen new technology since 1950. I'm hardly an American exceptionalist, but American-made is still much better than Chinese-made in nearly everything, quality-wise. And it will have less cadmium in it too. There’s cultural issues to consider too. Also, although our educational system is going to crap, it’s still better than most of the workers in Chinese factories, who probably grew up on farms that hadn’t seen new technology since 1950. I’m hardly an American exceptionalist, but American-made is still much better than Chinese-made in nearly everything, quality-wise. And it will have less cadmium in it too.

]]> By: Reo http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621255 Reo Sun, 06 Jan 2013 04:17:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621255 Not to burst your optimistic view on "Manufacturing back to US". While it serves as good view on patriotic manners, but in reality, the world is not only governed by Dollars and Yuan. Just because China wages goes up doesn't mean all manufacturing plants will go back to US. There are low wages in South Asia Countries.  Not to burst your optimistic view on “Manufacturing back to US”. While it serves as good view on patriotic manners, but in reality, the world is not only governed by Dollars and Yuan. Just because China wages goes up doesn’t mean all manufacturing plants will go back to US. There are low wages in South Asia Countries. 

]]> By: Preston Sturges http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621251 Preston Sturges Sun, 06 Jan 2013 03:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621251 The other problem is that as the lead times for orders become longer, the amount of inventory needed to protect you stocking out becomes huge.  You may either be unable to fill orders, or you might end up dumping huge amounts of unsold inventory. Either way, you'll have to pay to store 70% more inventory than if you had it made locally.  Oh, and intellectual property?  Pffft The other problem is that as the lead times for orders become longer, the amount of inventory needed to protect you stocking out becomes huge.  You may either be unable to fill orders, or you might end up dumping huge amounts of unsold inventory. Either way, you’ll have to pay to store 70% more inventory than if you had it made locally. 

Oh, and intellectual property?  Pffft

]]> By: Preston Sturges http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621250 Preston Sturges Sun, 06 Jan 2013 03:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621250 In the US they are at least concerned about getting sued.  In the US they are at least concerned about getting sued. 

]]> By: bridgebuilder78 http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621210 bridgebuilder78 Sun, 06 Jan 2013 02:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621210 Don't believe the media hype about "re-shoring".   Don’t believe the media hype about “re-shoring”.  

]]> By: nixiebunny http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621202 nixiebunny Sun, 06 Jan 2013 01:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621202 You have to not make those mistakes when getting stuff built in the USA as well. It's just easier to talk to the people who may or may not notice the mistake.  You have to not make those mistakes when getting stuff built in the USA as well. It’s just easier to talk to the people who may or may not notice the mistake. 

]]> By: fuzzyfuzzyfungus http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621168 fuzzyfuzzyfungus Sun, 06 Jan 2013 01:03:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621168 Even if there were, it isn't clear that it would help much. Almost all labor categories have shared the steady and dramatic decline in things like real wages, benefits, and job stability vs. 'productivity'.  Even if somebody opened a 100% authentic 1959 factory line, complete with lots of manual labor, they would be vanishingly unlikely to bother with the sorts of salary and stability that would make for a blue-collar middle class... Even if there were, it isn’t clear that it would help much. Almost all labor categories have shared the steady and dramatic decline in things like real wages, benefits, and job stability vs. ‘productivity’. 

Even if somebody opened a 100% authentic 1959 factory line, complete with lots of manual labor, they would be vanishingly unlikely to bother with the sorts of salary and stability that would make for a blue-collar middle class…

]]> By: Dimmer http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621146 Dimmer Sat, 05 Jan 2013 23:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621146 Ha, try getting some phones made in super-secret resins which I couldn't even allow Customs Officers to see (new at the time iMac colors). Phones that had not been made in years. During the Chinese national holiday fortnight. Probably lost five years off my life trying to get that done. And the good parts of my hair. Ha, try getting some phones made in super-secret resins which I couldn’t even allow Customs Officers to see (new at the time iMac colors). Phones that had not been made in years. During the Chinese national holiday fortnight. Probably lost five years off my life trying to get that done. And the good parts of my hair.

]]> By: Preston Sturges http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621140 Preston Sturges Sat, 05 Jan 2013 23:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621140 Also there is lead time and the length of the supply chain.  You are stuck with forecasts you made 9 months ago. Customers are returning 50% of your sales?  Tough!  You can't retool and get new products before 2014! Also there is lead time and the length of the supply chain.  You are stuck with forecasts you made 9 months ago. Customers are returning 50% of your sales?  Tough!  You can’t retool and get new products before 2014!

]]> By: tyger11 http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621124 tyger11 Sat, 05 Jan 2013 22:29:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621124 "This product printed in the U.S.A. on 3D printers printed in China!" “This product printed in the U.S.A. on 3D printers printed in China!”

]]> By: lafave http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621113 lafave Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621113 What about getting stuff made in Vietnam? - China's wages aren't exploitative enough. What about getting stuff made in Vietnam? – China’s wages aren’t exploitative enough.

]]> By: Rindan http://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/howto-get-stuff-made-in-china.html#comment-1621106 Rindan Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:42:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=204222#comment-1621106 If you read cheering into that or a prediction that everyone is going to become an engineer or scientist, you badly misread.  I was just acknowledging reality. We are headed towards utopia where human work has no economic value and everyone has plenty.  The transition though is ugly.  You have people that need to keep working, and you need to give them enough incentive to keep working despite the fact that work sucks.  You also need to make sure that those that are automated out of useful economic work are not miserable and willing to kill those that still have work.  You are going to have a transition where people slowly go from being economically useful to economically useless.  Managing that is very, very, very hard. I think the US is already going through the first stages of this and stumbling pretty badly because they have not yet realized that some people are just going to be unable to find useful work.  They have weighted the system to trying to encourage work and punish unemployment even when there is no work to be had  for some.  France and the like are the opposite side of the coin.  They realize that not everyone is going to work, but have not yet figured out how to pay for it and so are racking up debt at an alarming rate.  I think the Nordic model is probably the closest.  They, in general, offer a good reason to work if you can, make you comfortable if you can't, and pay for it. If you read cheering into that or a prediction that everyone is going to become an engineer or scientist, you badly misread.  I was just acknowledging reality.

We are headed towards utopia where human work has no economic value and everyone has plenty.  The transition though is ugly.  You have people that need to keep working, and you need to give them enough incentive to keep working despite the fact that work sucks.  You also need to make sure that those that are automated out of useful economic work are not miserable and willing to kill those that still have work.  You are going to have a transition where people slowly go from being economically useful to economically useless.  Managing that is very, very, very hard.

I think the US is already going through the first stages of this and stumbling pretty badly because they have not yet realized that some people are just going to be unable to find useful work.  They have weighted the system to trying to encourage work and punish unemployment even when there is no work to be had  for some.  France and the like are the opposite side of the coin.  They realize that not everyone is going to work, but have not yet figured out how to pay for it and so are racking up debt at an alarming rate.  I think the Nordic model is probably the closest.  They, in general, offer a good reason to work if you can, make you comfortable if you can’t, and pay for it.

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