Comments on: School system seeks copyright ownership of students’ work in Maryland http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:41:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Jamie Stallings http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1647988 Jamie Stallings Wed, 06 Feb 2013 18:28:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1647988 I think what is a play here is that school systems struggle with an ever increasing demand that money be thrown at education only to discover that the well of cash actually has a bottom; which they have been scraping for years.  If the money that was collected for education actually went to education (instead of administration) I am not sure we would be having this discussion.   However, I have no issue with a school system claiming ownership of employee produced work as that market force has been around for years, but to claim ownership of student works is against the 4th amendment and to a lesser degree 5th. I think what is a play here is that school systems struggle with an ever increasing demand that money be thrown at education only to discover that the well of cash actually has a bottom; which they have been scraping for years.  If the money that was collected for education actually went to education (instead of administration) I am not sure we would be having this discussion.  

However, I have no issue with a school system claiming ownership of employee produced work as that market force has been around for years, but to claim ownership of student works is against the 4th amendment and to a lesser degree 5th.

]]> By: Jamie Stallings http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1647964 Jamie Stallings Wed, 06 Feb 2013 18:16:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1647964 "Market forces are the enemy of human progress." Absolutely not! Market forces actually drive achievement since as prices go up for an item someone else finds a way to do it cheaper or better thereby increasing competition. Think Wal-Mart, Smart phones, Tablets, ... anything. “Market forces are the enemy of human progress.”

Absolutely not! Market forces actually drive achievement since as prices go up for an item someone else finds a way to do it cheaper or better thereby increasing competition. Think Wal-Mart, Smart phones, Tablets, … anything.

]]> By: lishevita http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1647526 lishevita Wed, 06 Feb 2013 05:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1647526 I think that it's a lot worse to do this to primary and secondary teachers, though. I think that it’s a lot worse to do this to primary and secondary teachers, though.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1647102 Antinous / Moderator Tue, 05 Feb 2013 23:17:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1647102 I've gotten several teachers and bosses fired in my long and illustrious career as a troublemaker. You'd be surprised how quickly bullies fold when you confront them. I’ve gotten several teachers and bosses fired in my long and illustrious career as a troublemaker. You’d be surprised how quickly bullies fold when you confront them.

]]> By: Gyrofrog http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646969 Gyrofrog Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646969 Yeah, 'twas rhetorical. Yeah, ’twas rhetorical.

]]> By: TheMadLibrarian http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646904 TheMadLibrarian Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646904 That is quite wrong.  Is your school private?  I can't imagine a public school being able to enforce this. Example: a child creates a drawing, that is subsequently used as a cover/illustration for a for-profit work created by someone at the school.  What are the child's rights regarding use of that work, or do they and their family basically get told to 'suck it'? That is quite wrong.  Is your school private?  I can’t imagine a public school being able to enforce this.
Example: a child creates a drawing, that is subsequently used as a cover/illustration for a for-profit work created by someone at the school.  What are the child’s rights regarding use of that work, or do they and their family basically get told to ‘suck it’?

]]> By: Al_Packer http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646852 Al_Packer Tue, 05 Feb 2013 20:51:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646852  You don't call the cops for something like that -- at least you don't if you want to keep your job.  You don’t call the cops for something like that — at least you don’t if you want to keep your job.

]]> By: Gyrofrog http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646459 Gyrofrog Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:19:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646459 What happened after she called the cops? What happened after she called the cops?

]]> By: stephenl123 http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646242 stephenl123 Tue, 05 Feb 2013 07:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646242 US law is very clear about this.  The author or creator owns the copyright except in specifically enumerated cases.  The law is not ambiguous. US law is very clear about this.  The author or creator owns the copyright except in specifically enumerated cases.  The law is not ambiguous.

]]> By: Al_Packer http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646219 Al_Packer Tue, 05 Feb 2013 06:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646219 Schools and property rights: I gave my sister who taught elementary music a bongo drum set which she kept at her office and took with her to classrooms when teaching a unit where rhythm was appropriate.  One of the district administrators saw it in her office, grabbed it, and walked out the door with it, saying "you don't need this." Schools and property rights:
I gave my sister who taught elementary music a bongo drum set which she kept at her office and took with her to classrooms when teaching a unit where rhythm was appropriate.  One of the district administrators saw it in her office, grabbed it, and walked out the door with it, saying “you don’t need this.”

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646052 Antinous / Moderator Tue, 05 Feb 2013 03:13:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646052 Not sure that it's worse that the UK's army of health and safety jobsworths. Not sure that it’s worse that the UK’s army of health and safety jobsworths.

]]> By: RElgin http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1646049 RElgin Tue, 05 Feb 2013 03:09:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1646049 I was shocked when my daughter, who normally attends school in a non-USA location, went to an American school around Atlanta and had to fill out several consent forms that I would see only in a business setting. They wanted a video rights release form in case someone shot a video at school that contained her.  They wanted IP rights for whatever she created in school.  I really think that, in addition to having a "drug-free zone" around a school, there should be a "lawyer-free zone" declared as well, with federal charges to back this up. I was shocked when my daughter, who normally attends school in a non-USA location, went to an American school around Atlanta and had to fill out several consent forms that I would see only in a business setting.
They wanted a video rights release form in case someone shot a video at school that contained her.  They wanted IP rights for whatever she created in school. 
I really think that, in addition to having a “drug-free zone” around a school, there should be a “lawyer-free zone” declared as well, with federal charges to back this up.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645958 Antinous / Moderator Tue, 05 Feb 2013 00:57:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645958 The Scantron thing has a real Pharaoh/ straw/ bricks vibe. The Scantron thing has a real Pharaoh/ straw/ bricks vibe.

]]> By: ferricoxide http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645938 ferricoxide Tue, 05 Feb 2013 00:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645938 I think the troubling thing isn't so much the attempt to assert ownership over employee-created IP - that's pretty much par for the course in the commercial world. What troubles me is that students' works would also be subject to the land-grab. As an employee, I have a choice of whether I work for a given employer or to accept a given set of employment terms. As a student, I have only slightly more choice of what school district I go to (and terms I operate under) than I had of which parents gave birth to me. Given the compulsory relationship, I gotta think that the school district attempting to assert ownership rights over students' works would be quickly overturned in court. I think the troubling thing isn’t so much the attempt to assert ownership over employee-created IP – that’s pretty much par for the course in the commercial world. What troubles me is that students’ works would also be subject to the land-grab. As an employee, I have a choice of whether I work for a given employer or to accept a given set of employment terms. As a student, I have only slightly more choice of what school district I go to (and terms I operate under) than I had of which parents gave birth to me. Given the compulsory relationship, I gotta think that the school district attempting to assert ownership rights over students’ works would be quickly overturned in court.

]]> By: James Agenbroad http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645699 James Agenbroad Mon, 04 Feb 2013 20:19:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645699  That's the way it is for WMFH that are done by contractors.  Language making the work a WMFH HAS to be in the contract, AND the contract has to have been agreed to BEFORE the work was created. But when there is an employee/employer relationship there NO need for a specific agreement. Works created within the course of their employment is automatically a WMFH, and the employer rather than the creator is the author under copyright law.  That’s the way it is for WMFH that are done by contractors.  Language making the work a WMFH HAS to be in the contract, AND the contract has to have been agreed to BEFORE the work was created. But when there is an employee/employer relationship there NO need for a specific agreement. Works created within the course of their employment is automatically a WMFH, and the employer rather than the creator is the author under copyright law.

]]> By: Gyrofrog http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645619 Gyrofrog Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:51:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645619 My wife has had to turn in assignments via such a system.  I hadn't even thought about that, that it becomes part of the DB. My wife has had to turn in assignments via such a system.  I hadn’t even thought about that, that it becomes part of the DB.

]]> By: Todd Bradley http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645610 Todd Bradley Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:44:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645610 Yeah, I was thinking of the public domain angle, too. I know that IP created by federal government employees is supposed to be in the public domain, but the vast majority of most teachers' salaries are from state and local governments. And I know (or at least have read) that the same thing doesn't apply of state-funded IP. Yeah, I was thinking of the public domain angle, too. I know that IP created by federal government employees is supposed to be in the public domain, but the vast majority of most teachers’ salaries are from state and local governments. And I know (or at least have read) that the same thing doesn’t apply of state-funded IP.

]]> By: sluggo http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645605 sluggo Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:39:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645605 If I was a student and the school said they owned all my work? FUCK YOU. PAY ME. http://vimeo.com/22053820 2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. on Vimeo If I was a student and the school said they owned all my work?

FUCK YOU. PAY ME.

http://vimeo.com/22053820

2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. on Vimeo

]]> By: Pag http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645603 Pag Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645603  It's people realizing that all the money is in rent-seeking nowadays. You can't become rich by making valuable things anymore, you become rich by taking a cut of the value created by others. Hence trying to get a cut from the creativity of students in school, a cut from all apps in the app store, a cut of all the money that's invested in Wall Street, a cut from all inventors trying to do something vaguely related to a BS patent you own, etc. It's a massive drag on the economy and it's becoming more and more common.  It’s people realizing that all the money is in rent-seeking nowadays. You can’t become rich by making valuable things anymore, you become rich by taking a cut of the value created by others. Hence trying to get a cut from the creativity of students in school, a cut from all apps in the app store, a cut of all the money that’s invested in Wall Street, a cut from all inventors trying to do something vaguely related to a BS patent you own, etc. It’s a massive drag on the economy and it’s becoming more and more common.

]]> By: Robert Drop http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645544 Robert Drop Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:46:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645544 Presumably the only difference right now is that the campus bookstore is run by a third party, and not directly by the school. Though I certainly paid to make copies for students on university-owned copiers while teaching courses there, so it differs only in scale. Presumably the only difference right now is that the campus bookstore is run by a third party, and not directly by the school. Though I certainly paid to make copies for students on university-owned copiers while teaching courses there, so it differs only in scale.

]]> By: Robert Drop http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645534 Robert Drop Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:39:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645534 Having friends and family who teach K-12, I knew it was bad, but having the teacher pay for Scantrons?  I can't think of another word for it but "obscene."  The more I read about the state of the education system in the US, the more I can't help but think of it as a system in serious decline. The way things are going, soon it will make sense for the teachers to join forces with exotic dancers, as the terms of their employment will be similar - they'll both be paying to rent their work space, while living entirely off tips. Having friends and family who teach K-12, I knew it was bad, but having the teacher pay for Scantrons?  I can’t think of another word for it but “obscene.”  The more I read about the state of the education system in the US, the more I can’t help but think of it as a system in serious decline.
The way things are going, soon it will make sense for the teachers to join forces with exotic dancers, as the terms of their employment will be similar – they’ll both be paying to rent their work space, while living entirely off tips.

]]> By: Robert Drop http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645528 Robert Drop Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:35:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645528 Yeah, the company towns are exactly what immediately came to mind.  Though somehow this seems even more far-reaching. Yeah, the company towns are exactly what immediately came to mind.  Though somehow this seems even more far-reaching.

]]> By: Mike Hathaway http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645522 Mike Hathaway Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:30:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645522 The teachers union should be able to fix this in the contract but I have no idea about the students.  Yes lesson plans could be work for hire but teachers are paid hourly and often lesson plans are created at home, or on unpaid time.  If the school wants ownership they may be held responsible to pay overtime for all prep time done on and off campus.  As far as student work is concerned... Schools have been screwing students for years this is just par the course.   The teachers union should be able to fix this in the contract but I have no idea about the students.  Yes lesson plans could be work for hire but teachers are paid hourly and often lesson plans are created at home, or on unpaid time.  If the school wants ownership they may be held responsible to pay overtime for all prep time done on and off campus.  As far as student work is concerned… Schools have been screwing students for years this is just par the course.  

]]> By: Gyrofrog http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645421 Gyrofrog Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:46:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645421 Hey, I live in P.G.! I'm so glad to see that the actions of our school district, <a href="http://boingboing.net/2012/06/07/congratulations-on-completing.html" rel="nofollow">once again</a>, merit attention at BoingBoing! PGCPS w00t! Hey, I live in P.G.! I’m so glad to see that the actions of our school district, once again, merit attention at BoingBoing! PGCPS w00t!

]]> By: James Agenbroad http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645420 James Agenbroad Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:45:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645420  To some extant you are, I think,  mixing "specially contracted and commisioned," WFH with employee/employer WFH.  Record albums are for the most part the first category, where clear language in the contract has to spell out that the work is intended to be a WFH, and that work has to be in one of several special classes (a translation, a contribution to a collective work, etc...)  When there is an actual employee/employer relationship, ANY work created in the course of that employment IS born a WFH, the employer is the author for copyright purposes.  The question is whether lesson plans are made "in the course of their employment" when they are completed off worksite, outside of work hours.  To some extant you are, I think,  mixing “specially contracted and commisioned,” WFH with employee/employer WFH.  Record albums are for the most part the first category, where clear language in the contract has to spell out that the work is intended to be a WFH, and that work has to be in one of several special classes (a translation, a contribution to a collective work, etc…)  When there is an actual employee/employer relationship, ANY work created in the course of that employment IS born a WFH, the employer is the author for copyright purposes.  The question is whether lesson plans are made “in the course of their employment” when they are completed off worksite, outside of work hours.

]]> By: Gyrofrog http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645413 Gyrofrog Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:39:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645413 Hey, c'mon, show a little respect.  It's <i>second</i> worst in the state.  We're number 2! Woo-hoooo! EDIT: Sorry, you're correct! Hey <a href="http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/07222010/collnew175442_32547.php" rel="nofollow">we're number one</a> after all! Hey, c’mon, show a little respect.  It’s second worst in the state.  We’re number 2! Woo-hoooo!

EDIT: Sorry, you’re correct! Hey we’re number one after all!

]]> By: That_Anonymous_Coward http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645368 That_Anonymous_Coward Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:46:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645368 Having seen some of the stuff that gets patented you have a very good chance of getting the patent. Having seen some of the stuff that gets patented you have a very good chance of getting the patent.

]]> By: That_Anonymous_Coward http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645367 That_Anonymous_Coward Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:44:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645367 Meh.  Insert my standard disclaimer about dyslexia here.  Homophones tend to trip me up, but on the upside I've been avoiding typing words backwards. Meh. 
Insert my standard disclaimer about dyslexia here.  Homophones tend to trip me up, but on the upside I’ve been avoiding typing words backwards.

]]> By: James Martin http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645317 James Martin Mon, 04 Feb 2013 12:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645317 I think legal systems should exist primarily to prevent the exploitation of minors. Were this to go ahead there would be no point in a legal system. Go America! I think legal systems should exist primarily to prevent the exploitation of minors. Were this to go ahead there would be no point in a legal system. Go America!

]]> By: flyoverland http://boingboing.net/2013/02/03/school-system-seeks-copyright.html#comment-1645315 flyoverland Mon, 04 Feb 2013 12:45:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=210435#comment-1645315 I don't understand how a publicly funded institution can possible own something? It is totally supported by public funds. If you say the kids should own the rights, fine, they created it. Maryland is just too close to DC to be living in the real world. I don’t understand how a publicly funded institution can possible own something? It is totally supported by public funds. If you say the kids should own the rights, fine, they created it. Maryland is just too close to DC to be living in the real world.

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