Comments on: "The blue eyed people get 5 extra minutes of recess, while the brown-eyed people have to stay in" http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sun, 26 May 2013 05:03:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: TheMadLibrarian http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1657075 TheMadLibrarian Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:18:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1657075 They tried this in the early 70s at my elementary school.  Sadly, being precocious, I had already read about the experiment in a magazine, and was not impressed.  If I were in a jury pool, I'd have been eliminated for having inside knowledge of the case. They tried this in the early 70s at my elementary school.  Sadly, being precocious, I had already read about the experiment in a magazine, and was not impressed.  If I were in a jury pool, I’d have been eliminated for having inside knowledge of the case.

]]> By: TheMadLibrarian http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1657072 TheMadLibrarian Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1657072  Army-colored.  Army-colored.

]]> By: Jules Balsiger http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656751 Jules Balsiger Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:27:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656751 I saw that decades ago and it stayed with me - especially when she said to the the young woman playing all cutesy (paraphrasing) "don't get cute, get educated!" and that really pushed me to recognize when i was using my gender as a free pass and also when others were too. We cannot look at the original experiment with "today's eyes" and judge what she did - things were very different then and less politically correct but I'm sure the experiment was effective in that it made the kids think out of the box, to question what they are told and to use reasoning... sadly these things are not taught to school kids today. I saw that decades ago and it stayed with me – especially when she said to the the young woman playing all cutesy (paraphrasing) “don’t get cute, get educated!” and that really pushed me to recognize when i was using my gender as a free pass and also when others were too. We cannot look at the original experiment with “today’s eyes” and judge what she did – things were very different then and less politically correct but I’m sure the experiment was effective in that it made the kids think out of the box, to question what they are told and to use reasoning… sadly these things are not taught to school kids today.

]]> By: Marshall_Cogburn http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656484 Marshall_Cogburn Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:34:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656484 I meant my analogy to be extreme. My point was that your initial argument seemed to valorize getting "introduced to reality" a bit too much. I appreciate the argument you make here more.  I actually agree with you, monkey_pants, about the dangers of helicopter parenting. I'm the guy at the playground who says that kids need to learn how to fall when they're young. I'm not a fan of overprotection.  If we have a remaining difference of opinion, it probably comes down to our estimation of how well-designed the blue eyes/brown eyes experiment was. A lot of people see it as wondrous. I'm appreciative of what this teacher tried to accomplish, but feel like there are obvious potential downsides that it's not clear to me she took into account. I began by saying I was horrified. I'll downgrade that to skeptical.  I meant my analogy to be extreme. My point was that your initial argument seemed to valorize getting “introduced to reality” a bit too much. I appreciate the argument you make here more. 

I actually agree with you, monkey_pants, about the dangers of helicopter parenting. I’m the guy at the playground who says that kids need to learn how to fall when they’re young. I’m not a fan of overprotection. 

If we have a remaining difference of opinion, it probably comes down to our estimation of how well-designed the blue eyes/brown eyes experiment was. A lot of people see it as wondrous. I’m appreciative of what this teacher tried to accomplish, but feel like there are obvious potential downsides that it’s not clear to me she took into account. I began by saying I was horrified. I’ll downgrade that to skeptical. 

]]> By: wysinwyg http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656469 wysinwyg Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656469 Yeah, it's incredibly skilled work.  People think of it as being mostly about knowing and lecturing about the subject matter but there's a whole set of skills that are actually more important in a lot of ways, especially for elementary school teachers. Yeah, it’s incredibly skilled work.  People think of it as being mostly about knowing and lecturing about the subject matter but there’s a whole set of skills that are actually more important in a lot of ways, especially for elementary school teachers.

]]> By: wysinwyg http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656461 wysinwyg Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:14:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656461 Just assign them to blue since brown-eyed people outnumber blue-eyed people handily pretty much anywhere but Norway and Minnersoter. Just assign them to blue since brown-eyed people outnumber blue-eyed people handily pretty much anywhere but Norway and Minnersoter.

]]> By: wysinwyg http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656455 wysinwyg Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:12:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656455 I taught high school for a year and we had a seminar-type thing for new teachers.  Someone mentioned a joke that went something like: Rip Van Winkle wakes up in the 21st century after being asleep since the mid 18th.  People take him from place to place and he has trouble understanding what all these places are.  He's never seen anything like a hospital -- the closest thing he's seen is a hospice where people go to die.  He's never seen anything like a train station.  But when they bring him to a school he sees the desks, sees the chalkboard, and says, "Oh, I know what this place is!" I taught high school for a year and we had a seminar-type thing for new teachers.  Someone mentioned a joke that went something like:
Rip Van Winkle wakes up in the 21st century after being asleep since the mid 18th.  People take him from place to place and he has trouble understanding what all these places are.  He’s never seen anything like a hospital — the closest thing he’s seen is a hospice where people go to die.  He’s never seen anything like a train station. 

But when they bring him to a school he sees the desks, sees the chalkboard, and says, “Oh, I know what this place is!”

]]> By: wysinwyg http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656445 wysinwyg Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656445  IIRC people said similar things about the Milgram experiment (that it was a profound and instructive experience).  IIRC people said similar things about the Milgram experiment (that it was a profound and instructive experience).

]]> By: wysinwyg http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656440 wysinwyg Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656440 Yes, you were a racial minority in that context and got treated as a racial minority.  One would hope that would give you some insight into people who are racial minorities in day-to-day life. Yes, you were a racial minority in that context and got treated as a racial minority.  One would hope that would give you some insight into people who are racial minorities in day-to-day life.

]]> By: wysinwyg http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656437 wysinwyg Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656437 Umm, there's nothing stopping anyone from developing a methodology for observing "natural experiments" and to generate empirical data from those observations.  This is actually something a lot of scientists do pretty much all the time. This is exactly the sort of study that anthropologists might do for example. But besides that, yeah, I think it should be pretty fucking obvious that black people are treated differently from white people without a peer reviewed study.  Demanding sociological studies before you'll accept that racism is a thing is kinda ridiculous. Umm, there’s nothing stopping anyone from developing a methodology for observing “natural experiments” and to generate empirical data from those observations.  This is actually something a lot of scientists do pretty much all the time. This is exactly the sort of study that anthropologists might do for example.

But besides that, yeah, I think it should be pretty fucking obvious that black people are treated differently from white people without a peer reviewed study.  Demanding sociological studies before you’ll accept that racism is a thing is kinda ridiculous.

]]> By: Jerril http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1656028 Jerril Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1656028  "Hazel" appears to be the eye-colour label for "Iunno." I'd also settle for "pretty" :)  ”Hazel” appears to be the eye-colour label for “Iunno.”

I’d also settle for “pretty” :)

]]> By: Monkey_pants http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655990 Monkey_pants Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:19:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655990 That's just a terrible, terrible analogy. The two situations are not the same. The only real way to truly have empathy is to have a real understanding of someone else's point of view. I may come across as harsh, but you remind me of the thousands of helicopter parents in the country busy churning out carefully protected, permanently damaged children who will never be actual adults because their parents insist on preventing them from ever experiencing anything difficult or bad. Life is harsh, and painful and difficult. The way to prepare children for life as happy, productive, thinking adults is not to carefully shield them from life, it's to introduce painful and difficult concepts to them in a controlled environment where what is happening to them can be thoroughly explained and discussed. Exactly what this teacher is doing.  I'll wager quite a bit that these children were not traumatized by this experience - instead they probably look back on it as one of the most profound and instructive experiences of their lives.  That’s just a terrible, terrible analogy. The two situations are not the same. The only real way to truly have empathy is to have a real understanding of someone else’s point of view. I may come across as harsh, but you remind me of the thousands of helicopter parents in the country busy churning out carefully protected, permanently damaged children who will never be actual adults because their parents insist on preventing them from ever experiencing anything difficult or bad. Life is harsh, and painful and difficult. The way to prepare children for life as happy, productive, thinking adults is not to carefully shield them from life, it’s to introduce painful and difficult concepts to them in a controlled environment where what is happening to them can be thoroughly explained and discussed. Exactly what this teacher is doing.  I’ll wager quite a bit that these children were not traumatized by this experience – instead they probably look back on it as one of the most profound and instructive experiences of their lives. 

]]> By: Marshall_Cogburn http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655879 Marshall_Cogburn Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:11:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655879 You are correct, novium. The Milgram experiment would no longer be allowed without an extensive consent process. Because blue eyes/brown eyes is a teaching method, the same rules do not apply. And Internal Review Boards would certainly have no jurisdiction over teaching about an experiment. Yet my conscience was still tripped. (Sometimes it is overactive, no doubt.)  You are correct, novium. The Milgram experiment would no longer be allowed without an extensive consent process. Because blue eyes/brown eyes is a teaching method, the same rules do not apply. And Internal Review Boards would certainly have no jurisdiction over teaching about an experiment.

Yet my conscience was still tripped. (Sometimes it is overactive, no doubt.) 

]]> By: novium http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655546 novium Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655546 Consent is important.  But surely there's a difference in an experiment (or even teaching an experiment) and something designed as a teaching tool to promote empathy and understanding of discrimination? Consent is important.  But surely there’s a difference in an experiment (or even teaching an experiment) and something designed as a teaching tool to promote empathy and understanding of discrimination?

]]> By: Tony http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655444 Tony Thu, 14 Feb 2013 05:13:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655444 Man, I have a lot of respect for teachers after watching this video. There's no way I could stand in front of a group of 3rd graders and lead them as well as Jane does. Man, I have a lot of respect for teachers after watching this video. There’s no way I could stand in front of a group of 3rd graders and lead them as well as Jane does.

]]> By: Tony http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655435 Tony Thu, 14 Feb 2013 05:00:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655435 Thank you!  I absolutely love Frontline.  Just hearing the narrator's voice and beating drums of the theme music gives me goosebumps. Thank you!  I absolutely love Frontline.  Just hearing the narrator’s voice and beating drums of the theme music gives me goosebumps.

]]> By: unclemike http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655378 unclemike Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:31:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655378 I love you, Jack. I love you, Jack.

]]> By: Halloween_Jack http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655298 Halloween_Jack Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:58:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655298  I remember this experiment from when it was performed in our kindergarten class. It... didn't quite turn out the way the psychologists expected. I think I've still got a jar of blue eyes preserved in rubbing alcohol somewhere. ...what?  I remember this experiment from when it was performed in our kindergarten class. It… didn’t quite turn out the way the psychologists expected. I think I’ve still got a jar of blue eyes preserved in rubbing alcohol somewhere.

…what?

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655260 Antinous / Moderator Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655260 He might have been more sympathetic because he was about 5'-4" and his two sons were in the zeroth percentile for height. He might have been more sympathetic because he was about 5′-4″ and his two sons were in the zeroth percentile for height.

]]> By: Monkey_pants http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655245 Monkey_pants Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:06:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655245 Yeah, I wish these kinds of experiments were done on the regular. I was ostracized in school just because I was the shy bookish nerd of the class. It doesn't have to do with race necessarily - it has to do with the majority vs. the "outsiders." Yeah, I wish these kinds of experiments were done on the regular. I was ostracized in school just because I was the shy bookish nerd of the class. It doesn’t have to do with race necessarily – it has to do with the majority vs. the “outsiders.”

]]> By: elix http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655222 elix Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655222 Given the implications for what she suspects your sex chromosones might look like, have you had genetic testing done in your lifetime? /s Given the implications for what she suspects your sex chromosones might look like, have you had genetic testing done in your lifetime?

/s

]]> By: Marshall_Cogburn http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655219 Marshall_Cogburn Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655219 I am sympathetic with your view, Monkey_pants. And I would guess that you, this teacher, and I are on pretty much the same page where racism is concerned.  But I don't think I agree with your argument as stated here, and I'll try to show why by analogy. There are places in the world today where children are kidnapped and used as soldiers.Some of them help burn other villages down until the day when they're shot and killed themselves. This is reality, and I would encourage schools to help prepare their students for understanding it. But if a teacher takes it upon himself one day to start giving his students this direct experience of being child soldiers, I will question his methods.  I am sympathetic with your view, Monkey_pants. And I would guess that you, this teacher, and I are on pretty much the same page where racism is concerned. 

But I don’t think I agree with your argument as stated here, and I’ll try to show why by analogy. There are places in the world today where children are kidnapped and used as soldiers.Some of them help burn other villages down until the day when they’re shot and killed themselves. This is reality, and I would encourage schools to help prepare their students for understanding it. But if a teacher takes it upon himself one day to start giving his students this direct experience of being child soldiers, I will question his methods. 

]]> By: Monkey_pants http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655217 Monkey_pants Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655217 Jesus - they still let that happen? Why don't they just line the kids up and have them vote on which members of the class they like the least? Talk about cruel and unnecessary. Jesus – they still let that happen? Why don’t they just line the kids up and have them vote on which members of the class they like the least? Talk about cruel and unnecessary.

]]> By: Gilbert Wham http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655216 Gilbert Wham Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655216 Coincidentally, the only P.E. teacher I had who wasn't an asshole was also called Mr Murphy. Coincidentally, the only P.E. teacher I had who wasn’t an asshole was also called Mr Murphy.

]]> By: Monkey_pants http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655208 Monkey_pants Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:49:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655208 Elementary School is one big cruel social experiment. Elementary School is one big cruel social experiment.

]]> By: Marshall_Cogburn http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655203 Marshall_Cogburn Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:47:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655203 Thanks for the thoughtful question, novium. It's been years since I watched any footage of this, and my memory may be exaggerating certain aspects. I recall the powerful effect the children said this project had on them, which is wonderful - and that may be the more important point. But it also left me uncomfortable with the teacher deciding to do this to her students on her own. Maybe I should watch this video and rethink my position.  I used to teach Milgram's famous experiment - the one where subjects think they're delivering electric shocks to a man for missing words on a spelling test, potentially to the point where he has a heart attack. The findings are flabbergasting and of roughly equal social significance to the blue eyes/brown eyes results. But there came a day when I began to feel conflicted about teaching this material too. Maybe it's simplest to say that I have come to value informed consent highly.  Thanks for the thoughtful question, novium. It’s been years since I watched any footage of this, and my memory may be exaggerating certain aspects. I recall the powerful effect the children said this project had on them, which is wonderful – and that may be the more important point. But it also left me uncomfortable with the teacher deciding to do this to her students on her own. Maybe I should watch this video and rethink my position. 

I used to teach Milgram’s famous experiment – the one where subjects think they’re delivering electric shocks to a man for missing words on a spelling test, potentially to the point where he has a heart attack. The findings are flabbergasting and of roughly equal social significance to the blue eyes/brown eyes results. But there came a day when I began to feel conflicted about teaching this material too. Maybe it’s simplest to say that I have come to value informed consent highly. 

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655135 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:54:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655135 I would have been picked second to last, but Mr. Murphy sensibly had us count off odds and evens. In the mid 1960s. Turns out that not all gym teachers were assholes. I would have been picked second to last, but Mr. Murphy sensibly had us count off odds and evens. In the mid 1960s. Turns out that not all gym teachers were assholes.

]]> By: entireleaves http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655128 entireleaves Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655128 Burn the witch! Just kidding. My eyes are sort of a muddy greenish/brown color with gold webbing. My evil blue eyed brother and sister used to lord it over me that their blue eyes were superior and say that I have simple brown eyes when I clearly don't. I just call it hazel. Burn the witch!

Just kidding. My eyes are sort of a muddy greenish/brown color with gold webbing. My evil blue eyed brother and sister used to lord it over me that their blue eyes were superior and say that I have simple brown eyes when I clearly don’t. I just call it hazel.

]]> By: Slartibartfatsdomino http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655129 Slartibartfatsdomino Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655129 Thanks! Thanks!

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2013/02/13/the-blue-eyed-people-get-5-e.html#comment-1655099 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:38:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=212655#comment-1655099 Mine are bluegreygreen with a bit of mustard around the pupils.  I just call them green, but it's not very accurate. Mine are bluegreygreen with a bit of mustard around the pupils.  I just call them green, but it’s not very accurate.

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