Comments on: EFF fights lawsuit over publishing secret, expensive-to-see laws

By: James Penrose

James Penrose — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:17:00 +0000

If the materials were developed with private sector money and then incorporated into the law, the government should either exercise eminent domain and make the info public or recompense the trade association for the reasonable value of the info and make it public.

If public money was used to fund the development, we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.

By: euansmith

euansmith — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 18:21:00 +0000

Nope, I was implying that you are apparently too principled to make it in to Government.

By: euansmith

euansmith — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 18:21:00 +0000

Except for the Pirate Code, which is more by way of being a guide line.

By: Carl Malamud

Carl Malamud — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 17:55:00 +0000

Actually, the NEC is indeed a law in many jurisdictions. What government do is “incorporate by reference” a model code like the NEC so that the entire text of the document becomes part of the administrative code of a particular state or the Code of Federal Regulations. Search for “national electrical code” and “incorporated by reference” and you will see many examples.

By: Lag bert

Lag bert — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:13:00 +0000

So you would prefer the government take someones work without compensation? Intellectual property is property and therefore subject to the laws of eminent domain. If you are suggesting standards developed by NGOs be made public domain without just compensation you are suggesting throwing out the 4th Amendment.

By: mccrum

mccrum — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:02:00 +0000

But they have (see above or do your own internet search). And they will again.

By: mccrum

mccrum — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:01:00 +0000

Your last paragraph is exactly how it should be. If you want to trust your electrician for following the NEC, right now you have no other choice unless you spend more than you do on the electrician to look at the code.

By: mccrum

mccrum — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:00:00 +0000

Because, for example, the National Electric Code (NEC) isn’t itself a law. However, states and municipalities have made following the NEC a law.

So the code isn’t a law, just following it is.

By: Bob Dinitto

Bob Dinitto — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:51:00 +0000

This is absurd on its face. How can US government standards be copyrighted? It’s a contradiction.

By: Boundegar

Boundegar — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:08:00 +0000

Yes but they don’t throw you in the hoosegow if you used the wrong ducts..

By: cellocgw

cellocgw — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:47:00 +0000

Marc, you totally got Whooshed there. Must be that weak-weekend coffee.

By: msbpodcast

msbpodcast — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:20:00 +0000

Laws are how we choose to live together. They are also how we can protect ourselves.Laws that are not accessible to all and not laws.They are arbitrary and capricious mechanisms of enforcement. Laws that you can't check, regardless of the reason, cost or secrecy, are instruments to subjugate you, blindfold you and screw you. If you get something built you have to trust that you're up to code but I trust no one because if my house burns down, I'm the one stuck with the consequences.

By: oasisob1

oasisob1 — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:43:00 +0000

That only negates willfulness.

By: oasisob1

oasisob1 — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:37:00 +0000

That’s the point I would make. You might have issues when you sell your home. Or perhaps you own an apartment building and you want to do repairs/modifications yourself? You’d have to get it right. Or you own any business and you want to remodel the building yourself.

By: Red Monk

Red Monk — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:10:00 +0000

Standards are just the way something “should be done” While Codes are Law.

By: euansmith

euansmith — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:56:00 +0000

And that, sir, is why you are not allowed anywhere near the pork barrel.

By: euansmith

euansmith — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:54:00 +0000

Wow, that’s odd.

By: Lag bert

Lag bert — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:10:00 +0000

A large number of codes and standard are developed by nongovernmental organizations that use the purchase price of standards and members’ dues to pay for the development and maintenance of said standards.

The number of individuals and organization that use some of these standards are limited, so the cost of development and maintenance is spread over a small user base resulting in a high per standard price.

That said..

Personally I believe, if an NGO developed standard is adopted by a government and compliance with the standards is mandated by law, the government should be required to pay the necessary licensing fees to purchase and place the standard in the public domain.

By: lafave

lafave — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:29:00 +0000

Ignorance of the law can be an excuse – if the law requires knowledge that the act is illegal.

A good-faith misunderstanding of the law or a good-faith belief that one is not violating the law negates willfulness, whether or not the claimed belief or misunderstanding is objectively reasonable.

US v Cheek

By: mccrum

mccrum — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:27:00 +0000

Codes change every two years or so and depending on when you started your project you might actually be using a code several years old. And then the electrical code isn’t the same book as the stair code, or the fire exit code, or the materials code. Multiply that times fifty states and it starts to add up rather quickly and more often than that Congressman is going to get reelected.

By: L_Mariachi

L_Mariachi — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:18:00 +0000

Wouldn’t prosecuting someone for violating a copyrighted law or code lead to the text being read in the courtroom and thus entered into the public record?

Similarly, could a sympathetic Congressman enter the text into the Congressional Record, which is also public? (And you don’t even have to read it out loud on the floor, you can say “please enter this document into the Record.”)

By: lafave

lafave — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:04:00 +0000

Some towns inspect homes prior to resale, so ymmv

By: Marc Mielke

Marc Mielke — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:03:00 +0000

Huh? I think you missed a few words there. Although I will admit that not looking at cash when I spend it makes it tug at my heartstrings that much less.

By: mccrum

mccrum — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:58:00 +0000

People who went to prison/jail over building codes found after a single google search:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/12/phonehenge-west-builder-jailed-criminal-case-against-him-ends.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/29/nyregion/landlord-goes-to-jail-for-violations-of-code.htmlhttp://www.therightscoop.com/absurd-minnesota-man-arrested-jailed-for-home-siding-code-violation/

By: elix

elix — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:57:00 +0000

That’s quite true, and I did consider that. If it were otherwise (the traffic code by which you would be judged in random speed traps, for example), I would’ve really leaned in heavy on the fury, but this is more a pain in the ass that needs to change rather than a fascist-commie-pick-your-hated-generic-ism plot against unicorns.

By: mccrum

mccrum — Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:52:00 +0000

The building inspector will know when the fire department determines that the wiring wasn’t to code causing the house to burn down and the insurance company will perk up their ears and decide that they don’t owe a dime because codes weren’t followed.

It is a cost of doing business, but a cost that is just passed on to the consumer. Shouldn’t the consumer be able to have a look at what they purchased if they choose?

By: Boundegar

Boundegar — Sat, 23 Feb 2013 23:11:00 +0000

As I understand it, these “laws” are building codes and the like.

It’s possible for a homeowner to violate the building code with a do-it-yourself repair, but no building inspector is ever going to know. Also, nobody ever went to prison for violating a building code.

The people who have a need to know are architects and engineers – and to them, the cost is just a part of doing business.

By: Kimmo

Kimmo — Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:46:00 +0000

Ignorance of the law is no excuse

Tell you what, I’d say that if you have to pay money to know the law, then it bloody well is.

By: Carl Malamud

Carl Malamud — Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:24:00 +0000

If you want to follow this case, here’s the docket on the Internet Archive:

http://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.cand.263568/

By: Pheck Phul

Pheck Phul — Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:09:00 +0000

Right on! No one should be legally obligated to look at money.