Comments on: TED2013: Amanda Palmer on "The art of asking"

By: William Farrar

William Farrar — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 01:35:00 +0000

Hospitals are a bad example because of necessity. And many people are not fighting against volunteering it is more a hierarchical sense of entitlement. You should give me money. I don’t feel obligated to give any back, despite i am at a point in my life where I can.

By: William Farrar

William Farrar — Thu, 07 Mar 2013 01:30:00 +0000

I am sure the complexity of society and the myriad of things grabbing a persons attention is a form of complexity and greatly eats into ones desire and ability to learn an instrument.

This is in response to Antinous below

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:51:00 +0000

I’m not sure that the loss of music-making ability by the majority constitutes an increase in complexity.

By: William Farrar

William Farrar — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:48:00 +0000

Societies got more complex. Go figure

By: William Farrar

William Farrar — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:47:00 +0000

Or she could have paid those musicians out of guarantee for playing shows. Estimated to be 5-10 thousand a show.

amanda Palmer is an established working musician. She isn’t some aww shucks kid just trying to make good.

By: ocker3

ocker3 — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:12:00 +0000

hah, currency is just a formalised barter system! we’re still exchanging things for other things, just some of those things are more durable than others. And yes, there’s a certain stability built in by The Man’s influence, but it’s not wholly divorced as a concept.

By: ocker3

ocker3 — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:10:00 +0000

Except that she’s Asking for musicians to join her, stating her terms up front, and not Forcing people. It’s not like she’s the CEO of a mining company and the other musicians are stuck in the company town on a contract, buying everything from the company store. She wouldn’t get very far if she abused the people who show up, or if the people who showed up didn’t feel like it was worth their time. As she says in the video, she (at least used to) suggest that the band members pass the hat amongst the crowd so the band would get extra money, basically asking the audience for a bonus if they thought the performance was worth it.

The musicians could have voted with their feet if they didn’t think the cost of their time was worth the reward of playing at those gigs. I’m in IT, if someone asks me to do something specific for free/pizza and I don’t feel like doing it, I just say no, my time is worth more than that. I don’t go, and then turn around and insist on an hourly rate.

By: ocker3

ocker3 — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:15:00 +0000

Are you aware that the money they used to pay those musicians came from the video-making budget? So those professionals were paid with money that would have gone to Other professionals, kind of a taking from Peter to pay Paul kind of scenario.

By: ocker3

ocker3 — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:14:00 +0000

uh, because?

Also, she apparently had a nervous breakdown/psychotic episode in College and shaved all the hair on her body http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jb20RdqMIM

By: ocker3

ocker3 — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:11:00 +0000

Ah, but music actually helps expand your mind generally, so many people are probably now doing it not as practice for a career, but as brain exercise (possibly because their parents insist).

I was in Choir in high school, not because I ever intended to try to make a living as a singer, but because I enjoyed it. My Mother (a piano teacher) pushed me into taking up playing an instrument before that, but I also wanted to learn to play Saxophone, which I thoroughly enjoyed, even when I couldn’t play well

By: awjt

awjt — Wed, 06 Mar 2013 03:18:00 +0000

He was/is definitely a pro-level horn player. Gets paid for lots of horn work, but not with that particular band, which also was a regular thing for him. He was on stage at least a few times a year. I lost touch with him. Don’t know what he’s doing now.

By: Lady Antonym

Lady Antonym — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 23:32:00 +0000

Where would the line be drawn? There are lots of people with musical training who’ve never been paid for playing music. My ex worked installing high end stereos. A bunch of the guys had a pick up band that did a tour of backyard barbecues in the summer. They were better than some bands I’ve paid to see, certainly more accomplished musicians than many/most wedding bands. Are they speaker salesmen or musicians?

Don’t get me wrong, I really respect the long and hard work that goes into learning music. But the real difference in pro and amateur is how quickly you pick up a new song rather than how good the final performance is.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 21:41:00 +0000

Not so long ago, everyone was a musician and made their own music. Paid entertainment as a widespread phenomenon is an aberration.

By: Jeremy Wilson

Jeremy Wilson — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 21:18:00 +0000

Doctors and Nurses have unions and require certifications and licenses to work – musicians don’t require such things, so amateurs can easily step in to undercut professionals.

By: Antinous / Moderator

Antinous / Moderator — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 21:13:00 +0000

The problem with this method is that, once a band or venue gets those free posters, they don’t ever want to pay an artist to design and print a poster again, because there’s always someone new willing to do it for free for “exposure” or just because they’re fans.

And yet, museums, hospitals, botanical gardens, etc. have all managed for decades to have both volunteer and paid labor.

By: William Farrar

William Farrar — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 19:14:00 +0000

but she hired one when she got her kickstarter windfall

By: Jeremy Sweeney

Jeremy Sweeney — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 19:12:00 +0000

She sets a precedent, though. She wants to be paid for her work and rely on the generosity of her fans to provide that payment for her work as an artists, which implies that she believes she should always be compensated. However, she assumes that anyone working for her has to demand payment because she thinks the privilege of working with her is sufficient. That’s the problem: it’s exploitative and unequal, she places herself at the top of a labor hierarchy when she’s claiming the artistic market is flat.

By: Nikolas Adair

Nikolas Adair — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:44:00 +0000

Bartering is cool. Currency is for old people.

By: Greg Ercolano

Greg Ercolano — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:32:00 +0000

Cannot unsee: regarding that skin colored microphone:
Am I the only one who thought her mic in the video still-frame looks like a giant wart with a hair growing out of it?

By: Navin_Johnson

Navin_Johnson — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:47:00 +0000

Friends sitting in on a home town gig is much different than trying to source, vet and evaluate (professional level) musicians or strangers for every one of your tour dates across the country.

By: Navin_Johnson

Navin_Johnson — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:17:00 +0000

“Free”

It’s nice of them to let all those companies post their ads here….I’m looking at one for “Cadillac” right now…

By: awjt

awjt — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:12:00 +0000

I had a prof in undergrad who used to play horns for Phish all the time up in Burlington. I asked him if they were paying him, because this dude made big bucks (to me) working for the University and he said, hell no, I’m just doing it for fun.

By: pt68

pt68 — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 15:13:00 +0000

The opportunity to comment is the commodity, and Cory does make money blogging, even if it’s indirectly through the promotion of his art that blogging provides. I know you know that, but it needs to be stated.
And maybe it’s important to talk about “rent-seeking” in this context because it’s hard enough for artists to make a living as it is. Anything that potentially lowers the monetary value of art in a society? It needs to be discussed, by and with other artists.
I don’t think AFP really addresses (or perhaps comprehends) how she potentially effects the full ecology that she’s a part of. While her vision of “the Arts” seems to be horizontal, the arts and the audience as co-equals, her idea of Artists seems to be vertical, a hierarchy. The lingering resentment about the tour and the volunteers, I think, comes from her not seeming to to treat all artists as equal; some are worth paying, some aren’t. I don’t think she did that in an evil way . . . just a thoughtless way.

By: Camp Freddie

Camp Freddie — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 14:39:00 +0000

And I guess you should stop commenting for free, and Cory should stop blogging for free, because you’re making things impossible for professional pundits and journalists.
How come people suddenly start being in favour of rent-seeking when ‘artists’ are involved.

By: Jeremy Wilson

Jeremy Wilson — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:13:00 +0000

It causes the same problem I faced in poster making – there’s always someone like you who goes “well, this sounds like fun so I’ll do it for free,” and then the bands just expect it to always be free.

It goes beyond the bands, too – large, well-funded national agencies start asking for the same deal because they see the bands getting it free. It is now basically impossible for anyone to make a living doing poster art because the bar has been lowered so low, and there is always another new person to exploit.

So, for the sake of working musicians everywhere, I guess I *am* saying “don’t work for a famous millionaire musician for free” because it makes working musicians jobs a lot harder.

By: awjt

awjt — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:07:00 +0000

OK, I get that there was a lot more to the story now. And I see your point. But a personal choice is still a choice. If people VOLUNTEER to play in a band and don’t broach the subject of remuneration, then they are just that: VOLUNTEERS. It’s a free country, and I am free to do stuff that I want to do for FREE with NO MONEY changing hands, if that is what I want to do. If I were starting to feel less than human in the arrangement, I’d speak up. And if the bandleaders pooh poohed me, I’d just bow out. My time and talent are valuable, as are theirs, and loose agreements sometimes go dangerously close to the ragged edge. But for there to be no such thing as volunteerism, and that doing anything automatically entitles you to be paid? Come on, that’s not the real world. I see your point, but I don’t see it as valid that nothing can be free. Sure, some people ask too much. When that happens, and you don’t like it, don’t participate.

By: Jeremy Wilson

Jeremy Wilson — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:02:00 +0000

Months later and this still pisses me off.

The standard argument she gives is that people are happy to play for free, so why shouldn’t they?

I spent many years in the poster art world making gigposters for venues and bands around the world. Because it’s fun and interesting work, there’s a lot of people who are willing to make posters for free for bands – the band gets 50-100 copies of the poster for free to sell at their merch table or put up around town to advertize the show – and then the artist keeps some to sell themselves to hopefully cover expenses. This is now a standard method in the industry.

The problem with this method is that, once a band or venue gets those free posters, they don’t ever want to pay an artist to design and print a poster again, because there’s always someone new willing to do it for free for “exposure” or just because they’re fans.

It doesn’t matter that “both parties are happy”, it’s still exploitation by one to get free work from the other, and the end result is that no one can make a living doing poster art because no one is willing to pay for it anymore.

This is *exactly* what she is trying to do with musicians, and it should stop now before it becomes the norm and makes it impossible to earn a living as a musician, because once you do it for free, it’s free forever.

By: terrysaunders

terrysaunders — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 11:20:00 +0000

By hiring and paying professional musicians?

By: ravenlunatick

ravenlunatick — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 11:10:00 +0000

I’m trying to go from memory of the flap back when it happened. A lot of ppl got really mad, but I don’t think it was the actual musicians who were mad…

By: Monkey_pants

Monkey_pants — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:43:00 +0000

It’s really, really hard to make a decent-sounding concert when you just grab random people who SAY that they play a given instrument. She has a responsibility to her fans to put on a good-sounding show. How do you propose she should have vetted volunteers?