"Ukraine fighter jet took out MH17" debunked

If they did it, they didn't use an SU-25. [Locklin on science]

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  1. By the time the 777 was in Kiev's airspace it was already on route to go through the Donetsk region.

    I won't say it is impossible that this was Kiev trying to make the Rebels look bad, but it is unlikely. By far the most likely scenario is some poorly trained Rebels who have been suffering under Kiev's total control of the skies finally got their hands on a proper AA missile system and failed to follow proper IFF procedures (which isn't so crazy when you consider that the rebels have no aircraft) and shot down foreign civilians with only their second missile.

    I note that in the news today the Rebels have apparently gotten their AA missiles back and are shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft again.

  2. Really? You do know that there are hundreds of flights that fly over this region and have for years. Kiev has nothing to do with it.

    In order for Kiev to have pulled this off, they would have had to drag a BUK into rebel controlled territory, fired off a missile then driven it back through rebel controlled territory without any number of spy satellites noticing. Considering they're military is in shambles, it seems a bit unlikely.

  3. Because the Ukraine is actually flying their SU-25s on combat missions. The actual fighters are parked in the hangars because the rebels don't have an air force. It's a theory that makes more sense to a guy on the ground who sees something with guns and jet engines and goes "That's a fighter jet, it could have shot down an airliner because that's what fighter jets do." The distinction that they're actually designed for ground attack and would be pretty bad at shooting down a 777 is not something they're really thinking about.

  4. OK . . .
    I've been staying out of this page, but the fact is that people DO make up random stuff, and then post it on the internet. When the Russians made their initial claims about the SU-25 they made some patently false statements:

    • They called it a "fighter jet" - it's ground support and lacks the capabilities of a true fighter jet. Just loading it up drops the service ceiling on it to half its unladen potential. It can be used for ground targeting, but has a short range.
    • They also posted a graphic that showed it operating above the point should be able to (even fully unloaded), and happily doing so.
    • That same picture didn't even show an image of the right type of plane. They used a fighter jet - a U.S. EF-111 - instead!

    So yeah - they lied. My source is The Aviationist, and they don't like the claim that the SU-25 could get anywhere near MH17 either. The fact is that Ukraine has been using SU-25s to fly reconnaissance in the area for quite a while, and not long before MH17 got blown out of the sky, one of their SU-25s was blown out of the sky - but you probably didn't bother to pay attention to that.

    BTW - just today, two more SU-25s were shot down. They were flying low, at about 6,000 ft. So a handheld could have taken them out - but the one that was hit prior to MH17 was too high for that. That one also required a missile.

  5. Thanks for that link... very informative.

    I also like this bit:
    Even more interesting the Wiki page of the Su-25 was edited (by a Russian IP address) to update its specifications…

    It wasn't a gov.ru IP, so at least they learned their lesson from last time.

    Edit: I just found this page which has a 10 year history of gov.ru IP anonymous changes to wikipedia.ru. In the context of this issue, it's pretty telling.
    https://jarib.github.io/anon-history/RuGovEdits/ru/latest/index-en.html

    Here's just a few completely non-political articles they saw fit to change:
    *17th Regiment of the National Guard of Ukraine
    *Leonid Markelov (the guy who supposedly did this:

    In early 2005, Markelov drew the ire of the international press when it was alleged that his authorities beat political dissidents and opponents of his governments with iron pipes. Numerous opposition members were beaten badly. No charges were brought to this incident, or for the other crimes of violence

    During 2005, the Mari activist and chief editor Vladimir Kozlov was badly beaten by Markelov's enforcers after he published criticism of Leonid Markelov's politics.

    In early 2006, Markelov drew ire once again in the International press when he charged Vitaly Tanakov for inciting religious, national, social and linguistic hatred after Tanakov published the book The Priest Speaks.

    *Naval forces of Ukraine
    *North Korea's abduction of Japanese agents
    *Criminal Procedural Code of Ukraine
    *Economy of Ukraine
    *Emblem of Ukraine

    36/38 edits to articles that include "Ukraine" in the title were made after April 2014. Totally legit.

    ^This is just from a cursory glance through a translated version of his dataset.

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