Rat-owning animal-hoarding rapture-obsessed twin elderly ladies versus the family next door
Palisades Rathouse: Unchallenged by Health Officials, Elderly Twins Fed Local Vermin Population (Thanks, Doran!)
When he crept closer, the odor — “a urine stench” — was “unbearable.” By the end of their first long weekend in the Palisades, Liz was stressed out, peering at shadows. The more she peered, the more rats she saw. Standing in her own master bedroom, she found herself at eye level with a group of rats who clearly had a routine, slipping methodically in and out of drains and cracks on her neighbors’ outside wall.She saw three rats squeeze out of a roof drain in a precision, shoulder-to-shoulder group, Ratatouille-style. Another rat pack traveled along the dusty, reeking hedge on the property line. The hedge was a rat highway, and it swayed under its commuters’ weight.
Liz knocked on her neighbors’ rotting front door, but no one answered. They soon learned from other neighbors that the owners were 78-year-old twins Margaret and Marjorie Barthel, who rarely left the house — and never at the same time. When one of them did go out (and many people could not tell them apart), she wore heavy clothes, a wide-brimmed hat and large glasses as she pushed a shopping basket from Ralphs. It was always filled with large bags — of dog food. They haven’t owned dogs for years.
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Egads! The real horror begins when their self-penned cookbook "Tasty Rat" hits bookstores. These women deserve a cult following, and it should be called The Crazy Rat Ladies Collective. I'd join in. You don't get better resume material than that.
Why would you buy a house without visiting it and noticing this crap?
caveat emptor!
Reminds me of "Grey Gardens"
This will end in an inferno and two charred old lady corpses. Mark my words.
but I love the little ratties! I love them lots!
I don't get it - are they some sort of anti-rat bigots or something?
I believe Kermit already covered this story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wljPHtQ3dXM
Reminded me of this creepy story from the New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2008/07/07/080707fi_fiction_boyle
I can see at the most 10 to 20 rats in the video. There's probably more not visible in the video, but no where even close to tens of thousands of rats they're accused of raising.
For one thing, rat food is not free. Rats eat a lot. I know cause my sister used to raise rats. She had only about 50 or so though. To feed thousands of rats, you'd see trucks unloading bags and bags of rat food every day. I doubt two 78-year-old ladies could pour them out of the bag fast enough, much less drag it back from the shop.
My guess is the rats are not feeding exclusively on what they provide. The rats are attracted by the free food, but needed to forage in the neighborhood for themselves. A bit like my neighbor, who used to throw rice in front of her house. That attracted lots of pigeons who then proceeded to cover most of the cars in the area (including mine) with droppings.
The infestation is probably no worse than what you'd see at a rubbish dump. All the new neighbors needed to do was to keep 2 or 3 cats and the rats would soon learn to keep to their side of the fence.
Dainel: A rule of thumb is that for every rat you see, assume that at least 10 more are hiding somewhere nearby. (Seeing one in daylight means that where ever they came from there were too many rats, forcing that one visible rat to venture out and be seen.) So for your 20 rats, there are at least 180 more probably within spitting distance. Over a few years (and one of those crazy twins stated she's been feeding rats since the 50s), that can easily add up to tens of thousands of rats. Shudder....
The infestation is probably no worse than what you'd see at a rubbish dump.
Probably true - but who intentionally buys a house next to a rubbish dump?
How is that house not condemned? Is local gov't in CA that broke? Vermin are vermin.
The illustration in the article is hilarious — I'd like to see an Edward Gorey version of it.
The fact there are twins alone makes this story take on a lazy stereotype of mystical-sounding properties. :p
Sure, they complain about it now, but they'll be thankful for the steady stream of fresh rat meat when the famine comes; man does not live on pigeon and squirrel alone.
Unless of course, the ladies have trained the rats to do their biding, a la "Willard", in which case they better stop complaining or the ladies will be saving a bundle on dog food (for a week or so, anyway).
So does this mean she is a pack-rat?
I have the EXACT SAME problem with several of the neighbors on my street. Every time I turn around, there's another one crawling along, Ratatouille-style, growing their numbers and eating their food. It's infuriating!
We are taking about rugrats, aren't we?
The women are obviously mentally ill and need treatment. The house is also obviously a public health threat. The rats should be destroyed and the house razed.
People who hoard animals
Hoarding of animals: an under-recognized public health problem in a difficult-to-study population.
The Hoarding of Animals Research Consortium
Behind Closed doors: The Horrors of Animal Hoarding
I dunno why people read "rat" and hear "vermin". These are not NYC type norwegian rats they're So Cal tree rats. We have a pair in the bouganvilla; they are lovely and hilarious.
Population is limited by food; we have on, maybe two, pairs. Who know where the kids go (up in the air in birds' stomachs I suspect).
Clearly, here, food supply is not a problem. Tough doodoos for the people of Pacific Palisades, ha ha!!
In general rats are pretty much the same as people but without cellphones or utility bills or bad clothing. They eat, play fuck, play, fight, pluy, fuck, propagate themselves without limit, and since they have no tools to make plumbing, their piss stinks bad in large populations. (They are very neat shitters though.)
But they're highly organized, the sleep in houses with doors (if you've had pet rats you've seen this), store food in organized piles, etc.
If only they'd find some method for birth control. Maybe they'll develop religion. Yeah, that works real well for us...
Rats don't have much of an immune system; they get sick, hemmorage at the drop of a hat and drop dead. But they have a hell of a reproductive system!
Rats propagate at an almost unbelievable rate when necessary -- a young, mature female can drop a little of 8 - 12 every six weeks for a year. They're sexually mature around 6 weeks. Females don't live long when they do this but when the pressure is on they can repopulate like crazy!
That's horrible! Did these people not do their due diligence before buying their "expensive bungalow"? I definitely have sympathy for them, though.
I don't get why the health department and other agencies aren't involved. If it were me, I'd be tempted to buy a buttload of rat poison and ring my property with traps and big hungry feral cats and rat-catching terriers and a I'd get a b.b. gun...
Yeah, I think cats are called for here - but the Denhams would need about 100 of them, and then they'd become the crazy cat family...living next to the crazy rat family. Only in LA!
@18, well, maybe, but the whole bubonic plague thing...not so good, actually. And if you'd RTFA, you'd agree with Noen - the old ladies are not well.
Wow, I just read that newspaper article. The house purchasers thought the smell was from the previous owners dog. After they discovered the problem, they went through every government agency that they could, and every one of them were inept. Unbelievable.
As others have said, the problem is partly that these new owners didn't do enough research before they bought the house. Before you buy, talk to the neighbors, or attempt to. If the problem is as bad as it seems to be, the prospective owners would have known something was wrong when they tried to knock on their neighbor's door.
That said, I love rats. They're adorable, unless they're wild or feral and in huge numbers. This is just disgusting.
Most amazing was the various LA agencies unwilling to deal with this. Had it been a dog or cat hoarding, the SPCA or other animal services would have been out there. But wild rats? No so much. It is amazing to me that the city didn't have a team of people out there to deal with this. Whether you like rats or not (I think they are fascinating, but nature ends at the door people), an infestation is an infestation and its a public health issue at that point.
The level of crazy exhibited by the two women seems to be grounds for someone to be out there routinely to deal with them. Lets face it, old women or not, the type of stuff they spouted sounded extremely threatening to me.
I'm siding with the rat killer and family myself. Public health risks are public health risks. Free roaming packs of rats are a public health risk.
And cats? HA! Good for a few rats and certainly for mice, but packs of rats? Unless you want to combat the rat hoards with equivalent cat hoards, good luck. Any exterminator that's dealt with large rat populations would laugh at the suggestion of "a cat" to scare off the number of rats involved here.
This is sick. The thing I need to disagree with is the implication that because these women never married and never had children, they hoarded rats (and other animals in the past) to fill that void. That's just a cloying lie. The reality is some people do have pets to fill voids: ONE pet. But they know their limits and they know how the difference between a human and an animal and act accordingly.
Someone who hoards animals to the point their house is uninhabitable is simply sick. They—in my estimation—have little to no ability to understand how hoarding can hurt the animals they claim to "love" and fail to recognize the dangers of their actions.
What is TRULY sick here is the inability of the Los Angeles local government to do anything. In NYC there are stories every few months of someone hoarding farm animals in a city home, and the police have NO problem getting in and doing the right thing.
It's sick that nobody on any level of that local government could have done anything. And it's sick they realtors did this.
And yes, there is an issue of due diligence on the part of the buyer, but c'mon. Who would expect something as sick as this? It's like asking a neighbor of John Wayne Gacy to "fess up" that they should have checked and made sure that no sociopaths lived next door.
Oh also, those claiming age and senility have an issue here, c'mon. Age is not an issue here if they have been hoarding things for decades. They are simply sick people who need help. And at least need to be removed from society for the damage they've done to their little part of it.
suppose they lived in a remote cottage? And fed feral rats?
From Google Answers:
There doesn't seem to be one psychological explanation about animal
hoarding. Typically, animals played significant roles in their childhoods, which were often characterized by chaotic, inconsistent and unstable parenting. Most participants reported their collecting started in childhood.
Most of the people interviewed as part of the HARC project were relatively isolated and socially anxious, perhaps causing interactions with animals to be more comfortable than interactions with people.
Specifically, our preliminary findings suggest that people who hoard animals often believe they have a special gift for communicating or empathizing with animals, and that this is their life's mission (i.e., responsibility).
Social isolation was common but appeared to result from the hoarding behavior rather than causing it.
In addition, Patronek (1999) indicated that over 80% of animal hoarders also hoarded inanimate objects.
Also, "Hoarding is very often a symptom of a greater mental illness, such as obsessive-compulsive disorder."
hasn't Teresa made a study of this? We should ask her.
@#27 (TAKUAN)
I think that it wouldn't be an issue then. But I generally believe in the rule of thumb: If a neighbor does something that doesn't harm others, they should be left alone. We all behave like that. Who knows what anyone's neighbors do? And who cares until it impacts others.
But in this case, I don't think they'd live in a remote cottage. Isolating themselves to that degree would mean they have the clarity of mind to know that what they do is a negative to their neighbors and they would be happier elsewhere.
But at the same time they know what they do is negative to their neighbors and they still do it. So in my mind, this is all one massive passive/aggressive way of getting attention. They probably crave the attention that they have gotten because they are basically sociopaths.
For them to do this without public attention would mean nothing. By living the way they do in the middle of a population that clearly opposes it they clearly are stating: Look at us!
Mixed in with the religious insanity I truly wonder what their childhood was like. That had to play a role in this mess.
it's dangerous to speculate what is in the mind of your sane neighbour never mind the deranged. Very well, they are a hazard to the larger community, sanction them,fine them,pillory them, take the rats,clean the property, even kill them with legal institutionalization - but it demeans yourself and society to presume to read their minds.
If the former owner and real estate agent really did know about this, they should be prepared for a mo-fo of a lawsuit.
They should just start buying lots and lots of rat poison and baiting around all of the rat hang outs.
they should claim religious persecution and bankrupt the local government
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACzWdSfZXmw
@#31 (TAKUAN)
I really don't understand the vast majority of the posts here. One second serious. The next second tongue in cheek. All arbitrary.
My personal theory on what motivates them is not mind reading in the least. This behavior is such an aberration on societal norms and such a negative towards others it's hard not to understand what their deal is.
More simply put: If I have a neighbor who lives in squalor and buys sacks of dog food to feed a colony of rats that is most likely filled with disease, that neighbor is bat-shit (rat-shit) insane and should be judged. In fact, I'm pretty positive that for all of their claims of "harassment" they love the attention.
It demeans society and is physically dangerous to others to make excuses for such clear breaches of sanity.
The reality is if the local bureaucracy worked, none of this would have been an issue. They would have been hospitalized and the property seized based on failure to maintain and their conscious creation of a public nuisance.
@33 - Leaving rat poison around would endanger neighbourhood cats, dogs, squirrels, toddlers, and other creatures that eat things they find on the ground. And rat poison is a terrible death.
The Denhams should up the ante. You wanna horde rats, fine, we are gonna horde rat terriers :)
Here's the difference between this case and those where the authorities have come in to clean up - this is a wealthy neighborhood. Rich folks have a privacy from government and law that the poor never have. Try to imagine how this situation might play out in Watts or East L.A...
the usual tensions between personal liberty and social responsibility. Should suicide be a legally enshrined right? Insofar as making assumptions about what is in their minds, I do believe killing them is a lesser offense that trying to tell them how to think.
JACK,
Please reconsider calling John Wayne Gacy a sociopath; he was a psychotic monster. You're giving actual sociopaths like George W. Bush a bad name.
What will happen: The new neighbours will sue them, the real estate agent and the city government. The city government in turn will have state/federal levels toss the ladies into a mental hospital. The house will be demolished, the land sold and the profits turned over to the state to pay for the ladies internment. The rats will mostly perish and some will flee.
@#2 mozTom
Why would you buy a house without visiting it and noticing this crap?
Ah-ha, Tom you've asked the right question. They wouldn't, would they?
Now I smell a rat.
For those who think that these women present no harm to their neighbors, should try moving-in next door to them for a week. The rats you see in those videos aren't from a pair of laboratory rats that they brought home or something they purchased in a pet store. These are, feral, Norway and Roof rats, two of the most common rat species in that area of California.
The Departments of Health and Departments of Parks in every city in Southern California has been warning residents for nearly twenty years that these animals harbor the fleas that transmit Bubonic plague, their urine and feces contains Hanta virus, and Typhus. The fact that the city of LA did nothing to control this problem is downright criminally negligent. The Denham's should have gotten one of those consumer advocates from a local TV station on the problem. Once it hit the airwaves, the city would have fallen all over itself to resolve it.
interesting, virtually everyone I know is mad in some way if you scratch deeply enough. Not one hundred percent, but damned near. Yet somehow few see their fear of the madness of others as denial of their own. Crazy isn't always bad you know. I doubt most artists could produce without it. In fact, the most dangerous crazy is that which builds the pyres and stakes in the name of sanity.
Anyway, a good witch burning brings the community together. I wonder if there will be rat-on-a-stick?
Maybe the sisters have a cottage industry making these: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/02/07/rat-kings.html
I don't know about mad, sane, insane or crazy. Personally I think the whole world is nuts. I know the old ladies are mentally ill though and ought to be treated out of compassion for their humanity. One focuses on behavior. Their behavior is causing them significant problems socially and threatens their health. Therefore they should be treated humanely.
The ladies have some 500,000 rats they have fed, with possibly as many as 2 million offspring. These rats are not confined to the house but are spreading all throughout the Palisades, their numbers fed by the Barthel sisters. They believe that they are doing the work of the Lord and are hastening the second coming of Christ.
Time to do some back-of-the-envelope math on how many rats these ladies were actually supporting, with the ridiculous numbers that the various people in the article were throwing out. Hey, I'm curious!
Basic numbers we're working with:
-Say they went to buy food twice a month, and filled up the cart each time as the article says: five (or more) 20-lb bags of dog food.
-Purina dog food is 21% protein, 10% fat.
-Rats are under a pound, well under for the smaller rat types like the ladies were raising, but we'll bump it up to three pounds to compensate for higher metabolic rate, and scale down from human caloric intake.
-So 2000 cal/150 lb -> X cal/3 lb, call it 40 calories per rat per day.
.21 x 20lb x 5bags x 1kg/2.2lb x 1000g/kg x 4cal/g
= 38,182 calories protein every two weeks
.10 x 20lb x 5bags x 1kg/2.2lb x 1000g/kg x 9cal/g
= 40,909 calories fat every two weeks.
(79,091cal/14days) / 40cal/rat*day (per rat per day)
= 140 rats.
All of these assumptions are conservative; just having a safe haven and a reliable food source to fall back on when scavenging isn't productive means we're talking probably several hundred rats kept in the neighborhood that wouldn't otherwise be there.
In conclusion,
@10: More than ten to twenty.
@11: Your rule of thumb guess? Probably about right.
As far as my opinion goes... The whole thing, hoarding, bureaucratic failure, the privilege of wealth, deception, all deeply disturbing. Those ladies need help, for their own good, but it's not going to make them happier.
@44
One of the first things taught in Psychology is that there is something "wrong" with everybody.
I'd say what the old ladies are doing is no more insane than those people who hoard dogs or cats. They need the same kind of help as the more conventional animal hoarders.
If I was in that situation and the city did not act and legal action failed I would fence off an area on my property (to keep non rats safe) and bait/set about 30-50 good old fashioned rat traps inside the fenced area. Empty and reset the traps each day. It might not completely eliminate the problem, but it would feel good.
I have to agree with others that the rats are probably feeding off other sources besides the dog food. I imagine it would be impossible to raise a vegetable garden next door.
And I cringe at the thought of what those old ladies' house interior is like.
@#44 (TAKUAN):
Again, your posts make little sense and ignore what I and others have said:
What you're presenting is the moral equivalency shorthand that would make what these sick women are doing "no big deal". Here's the deal. The vast majority of people in this world understand that encouraging the growth of a massive feral rat colony is dangerous to them and dangerous to others.
More susinctly, I know people who have issues. But at no time do their issues affect others in such a negative way. If a neighbor of mine who likes to drink each night, drinks each night I couldn't care less. If that same neighbor drinks all the time and makes life hard for others OR harms other people, I care.
There are tons of cat lady's I've met in the world. And more of them are simply the "I open a can of food and leave for the strays kind..." Those who hoard animals in the home are opening themselves to disease and if I were a property owner and they lived there, they would be doing damage to my property and I would act and have them evicted.
Give me a break. These two old women have put public health and safety in danger and their "way of life" has negative impacted others. This isn't a witch burning. There's far more evidence here of abuse, neglect and malice than any witch hunt I have ever read of. This is a case of two people who have chosen to be sociopaths to a level they danger others being taken to task.
And the true horrors is the small scale complicit nature of EVERYONE in local government and involved in the sale of this house. That is the true evil here. How this mess got to the level it did and to the point where nobody wants to take responsibility because the weight is too much for anyone to dare bear.
I would set up a sheltered tunnel leading from their property to my basement. Next,train the rats to find food there in a large box. Finally, set up a vacuum system to pull them out into a truck and then release them in a select part of town.
oh my Jack, "two people who have chosen to be sociopaths". I don't think they "chose" in sense normally used, do you? Isn't that the definition of madness?
Welp, I bet someone's going to fix the problem NOW.
@#51: "Congratulations, homeowner! You have been chosen to receive a lifetime supply of snake food!"
welcome please welcome thank you very much, please be the sitting down. Welcoming to the new Snake Temple of the Holy Palisades, offering box is by door thank you very much...
all the new neighbours need is a little imagination
I'm not so sure this would qualify as an "undisclosed defect" of the property and be liable to a lawsuit. After all, the rat infestation is a condition of the neighbor's property. Technically, there's nothing wrong with the new owner's property other than it being next door to the rat ladies. I think it would be the same if they had bought a house next to a railroad track and then complained because trains passed by their bedroom window at all hours of the day and night. Unfortunate, but it appears the buyers didn't do their homework (nor did their real estate agent).
I'm not so sure this would qualify as an "undisclosed defect" of the property and be liable to a lawsuit.
All parties to the deal, including the agents, are required to disclose anything that materially affects the value of the property. Neither seller nor realtor is liable for any information that they don't know or could not reasonably be expected to know. So, yes, the seller and her realtor are both deservedly screwed. The listing agent should lose his/her license over something like this. I was a realtor in California.
what's "the escape of noxious substance" law there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCAoBjfaEbE
waste not
http://www.bertc.com/cooking_rats.htm
CHRS @ 47,
No offense, but I think your back of the envelop #s are way off. Given that rats exist and thrive in areas where no one is actively feeding them, if they have a nice large house that they can infest and claim as their own, you're probably looking at a disturbingly high population regardless of how much the old ladies feed them. At this point they could probably stop feeding them altogether and you wouldn't see the population drop too much.
Since they seem to be free to come and go as they please, you probably have a situation where they're fanning out at night to all the local dumpsters, trash cans etc... and having a good old time before scurrying back home at daybreak. That so many were out in broad daylight just hanging out seems to indicate that the population is substantial. As others have pointed out, in a average situation any single rat/mouse you see corresponds to quite a few hidden ones, in this situation, with a safe and huge nest, it could be much much worse.
In general, I have to say though, I was kind of astonished at the way the article portrayed the council meetings. IMO that right there tells you why problems like that exist in the area. It's one thing to try and make council meetings as short as possible, but it's totally unacceptable to not be able to give a normal person the opportunity to bring an issue before the a council.
I'm assuming that when the Denhams checked out the house, the previous owner's dog was there not only to cover the smell of urine, but probably also to keep the rats away. Just a guess.
I'm totally going to have nightmares tonight.
#51 Takuan, ... set up a vacuum system to pull them out into a truck and then release them in a select part of town.
That "other" part of town will sure appreciate your efforts! :)
Have you been watching Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit? I like that rabbit sucking machine.
Well. . . they should draw up a business proposal-- if they get some cats . . . "the cats could eat the rats, and then the rats could eat the cats, and we'd get the cat skins for nothing."
the vermin sucker exists.A converted sewer vacuum truck used on prairie dog tunnels. The video from inside is hilarious as you see them coming flying out of the tube and slap into the pad, get on their feet and start looking around going WTF?
I would have thought that was impossible. But what do you know, there's a clip on cnn.
Folie à deux
oh,marriage?
The rats will eat the bodies.
The rats will eat the bodies.
The rats will eat the bodies.
Electronic pest-repellents are quite common now - the ones that emit frequencies that humans can't hear but which drive pests and especially rodents nuts. I would put a barrier of them around my home in 6-foot increments with extension cord if I were those home-owners.
If this is a RatHaus, I guess the little guys drink in the Rathskeller!
People keep saying cats, but I think what this family needs is a nice pitbull or two. Terriers were bred to attack small animals and pitbulls are much larger than a measly house cat.
measly?
http://mcgonnigle.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/coonbig.jpg
Ben, the two of us need look no more
We both found what we were looking for
With a friend to call my own
I'll never be alone
And you, my friend, will see
You've got a friend in me
(in Pacific Palisades street)
Ben, you're always running here and there
You feel you're not wanted anywhere
If you ever look behind
And don't like what you find
There's something you should know
You've got a place to go
(you've got a place to go...in Palisades street)
The homebuyers did visit the property multiple times--the article said they'd seen the house 8 or 9 times, IIRC. Dunno if they spoke with neighbors or not, but even talking to neighbors doesn't mean that the problem would be mentioned. It's in the neighbor's interests for a house to be sold quickly and at a high price, so it may be that no one spilled the beans.
Some other details in the article: people seeing a living room full of rats lapping at milk in bowls, with the sisters looking on approvingly. The former homeowner and realty firm were sued by the current owners, successfully. The former owner then tried to turn around and sue the rat ladies for creating the condition that caused Former Owner to be sued. And the rat ladies refused a settlement with the current owners because they objected to the sole injunction: that they never again feed the rats.
We picked up that LA Weekly issue over the weekend. My younger kid has a couple of pet rats. Though they are filthy vermin, they are very sweet, affectionate, and amusing filthy vermin (girl rats are apparently neater than boys and not as indiscriminate on where they lay down rat raisins). I never imagined that I'd ever be the sort of person who could walk around the house with a couple of rats scampering over my shoulders, but hey, life takes you in interesting directions. Even so, the entire family was grossed out by the story, both by the hideous health risk and by the civic indifference. Not to mention that when rats get into the attic they can chew up wiring insulation, causing electrical problems and in a few cases even causing house fires. Disgusting that my city government is so useless.
1. That they should have noticed this prior to buying the house is ridiculous. I bought my house in the winter and had no idea that there was a family down the street that drank beer on their front lawn and sold drugs to their friends (and never to undercover cops who would drive through the neighborhood every 30 minutes in the summertime). I could have been there at any time of day in January and not seen any of them outside because it was 10 degrees. Doesn't mean they aren't breaking the law, trust me, I've been through this with my wife over and over again.
2. Rats who don't go to the vet on a regular basis are disease carriers, this is exacerbated by what and how rats eat- mainly trash. Rats also do not have the same temperament as dogs and cats. I briefly knew a dog hoarder with a dozen dogs and she used to ask us for money to take her dogs to the vet. Anyone trying to compare a dozen dogs that got annual check ups to 500 rats that have never been inoculated against disease is just not thinking logically.
3. People who feel forced to be devil's advocates on every story make too many logical errors to be believed. If there's no law that states you can't own that many rats, then ok, we can start there, but merely stating an opinion that discusses the law with no knowledge of the law is an infestation of message boards.
Why would you buy this house? Step back a moment, folks, why would anyone buy any house in this falling market! It's all about paying the rent. Or staying with the 'rents.
@66:
I'm terrified to click on your link:
http://www.cnn.com/EARTH/9612/16/sucking.dogs/suck.dog.large.30sec.mov
at work. I think I'll just save that one for later, k?