Bigoted Ford dealership isn't actually sorry for its non-Christians "should sit down and shut up" ads

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84 Responses to “Bigoted Ford dealership isn't actually sorry for its non-Christians "should sit down and shut up" ads”

  1. Modusoperandi says:

    Daniel “I would also like to extend an invitation to him to attend a church, any nearby church.”
    Your wish might not work out. Lots of churches (big “C” Conservative, bible-only, biblical literalist, inerrantist, etc), apparently, support his kind of “us vs them” exceptionalism I have little firsthand experience of this myself, as I’d just go for the wine and cracker. Grape juice and cracker just isn’t the same. Even wine and cracker isn’t all that great (house wine! Pah!).

    “And please read the bible now and then.”
    …just make sure to start at the Gospels. End there, too. Maybe add Job and Ecclesiastes if he’s got time. Avoid the Torah and Joshua (oh, god, especially Joshua). Also, I recomment that he skip that book at the end (it’s riddled with spoilers). But what do I know? According to 1John2:22, I’m both a liar and an Anti-Christ. My plate is full. Full of evil! Moo ha-ha!

    Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator; speaking of Biblical quotes…

    1Cor2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

    2John1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed

    There’s more, obviously (both more that supports this and more and directly conflicts with it). The Bible is supportive of both christian (small “c”) behavior, and the opposite of such, depending on which passages are focussed on and which are ignored. He (and those of his ilk) just forget the huggy-luvvy bits, because hate and ignorance are sooo much easier. Plus, his personal relationship with Jesus Christ means that his Personal Jesus is a jerk, too, so it’s no wonder that they get along so well.

    “Next, adopting doctrines and practices whose effects run counter to Jesus’ teachings…”
    Jerks tend to focus on the non-Gospel Jesus, Paul’s Jesus, which differs remarkably from Jesus Jesus (Jesus Jesus, incidentally, replaced Lisa Lisa in Cult Jam), if memory serves, although the Gospels have “issues” as well (“Take that, fig tree!”).

    “They bring Christianity into disrepute.”
    That they do. Pat Robertson is worth half a billion dollars, by the way. Disrepute is profitable, when people (some of whom are disreputable themselves) think you speak for God. It hasn’t worked out so well for this guy, though. He sells Fords.

    “They aren’t ashamed to lie.”
    But to “them” it’s the noble lie, right? Besides, I’m sure that their Personal Jesus would forgive them, if they ever bothered to show remorse…which for some is moot anyway, as the narrow path is much wider once you knock “faith, grace and works” down to “faith and grace”.

    “Third, Christianity consists of doing your best to emulate Christ…”
    But what if your Personal Jesus is a jerk? He seems supportive of virtually every possible position. Also, if it’s Jesus telling you (or JC telling Paul to tell you) to shun outsiders and engage in acts of boobery, then it’s got much more weight behind it than if you thought that it was just a voice in your head. Which is handy, as Jesus is Jesus, while a voice in your head is just a voice in your head.

    “…their recent actions are anything but Christian.”
    I agree, although I’d use the small “c” christian. I’m like that. I use the small everything.

    Takuan “so how do Christians protect their brand?”
    In the USA they normally split off and form a new, One True Church.

  2. freetardzero says:

    TAKUAN @60: Unfortunately, we have no way to protect our ‘brand’, as it were. This has left our name open to exploitation by numerous groups and individuals throughout history, and has resulted in a lot of bad press for our faith. See: Crusades, Hitler, and G.W. Bush.

    Fortunately, more and more people are realising that it’s not the brand that really matters, it’s how you interpret Christ’s declaration, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’

    If we apply that simple metric to any situation, we should be able to easily determine the true ‘nature of the beast’, so to say.

  3. minTphresh says:

    Free Speech: worth every penny!

  4. minTphresh says:

    Oh, Ford! We Beseech Thee…

  5. tomic says:

    Oh, look! People I don’t like! How can I stop them?!

    signed,

    Chairman Meow,

    The Committee Against All Bad Thoughts

  6. Takuan says:

    yep, that’s why cows like ‘em

  7. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    or: bloglodytes untie! as they are the ‘halve knots’.

    (delayed) OW!
    OW!OW!

  8. dainel says:

    On behalf of all Christians, I would like to apologize for this guy’s behavior. He is not a real Christian, just some selfish, opportunistic person, trying to benefit from the publicity at the expense of Christians.

    I would also like to extend an invitation to him to attend a church, any nearby church. And please read the bible now and then. There’s no kind way to put it, but if he truly considers himself a Christian, and is doing this honestly; he is unfortunately misguided. This is not the way to glorify God’s name. What he is doing is only giving Christianity a bad reputation.

    He should stop the ads, and issue another apology, to both non-Christians and Christians alike. If he refuses, I urge all Christians to boycott all his businesses.

  9. Clumpy says:

    Considering that there was no chance such an ad could get through without the owner’s approval, I’m not surprised at all.

  10. Agent 86 says:

    @dainel

    He is not a real Christian, just some selfish, opportunistic person, trying to benefit from the publicity at the expense of Christians.

    Define “real Christian” in such a way that everyone who considers themselves a “real Christian” is included.

  11. Phikus says:

    Antinous@41: Amen!

  12. minTphresh says:

    bloglodytes unite!

  13. BassTooth says:

    Ford is all like,: “We are gonna destroy, these fucking, opportunistic-theist bastards!”

    upon reading the boingboing post, God is at his computer, and he is all like: “Jesus, get off your lazy ass and save that car dealership!”

    Jesus gets in his Ford Fiesta and drives to Cali.

    Jesus uses magic. and travels in time. and convinces Ford not to revoke the dealership.

    then the people of Mojave, California are all like: “hallelujah, it done be a miracles! Jesus, he done saved our Kiefe and Sons Ford dealership! and then Jesus is all like: “Have you a driven a Ford lately?”. Jesus smiles, and winks into the camera.

  14. Digital Artz says:

    Onward Christian Car Dealers or was that soldiers?
    Who needs organized religion to pray and be good anyway? In any event I am old and getting ready to
    be dead one day or more usually as statistics prove one night.
    Read the philosopherBertrand Russell’s book from decades ago”Why I am Not a Christian” for a history of the “Holy Christian” folk through out the ages.

  15. Kieran O'Neill says:

    Blogosphere vs Small Town America
    Round 2
    FIGHT!

  16. Agent 86 says:

    OW! I bow before the masters (but I never lay prostate)

  17. Takuan says:

    wise,very wise

    A woman has twins and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes
    to a family in Egypt and is named “Ahmal.” The other goes to a family
    in Spain; they name him “Juan.” Years later, Juan sends a picture of
    himself to his birth mother. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her
    husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Ahmal. Her husband
    responds, _________________________

  18. Ugly Canuck says:

    These guys may just be trying to get out of their distributorship contract with Ford and figure that this is as cost-effective a way to do it as any.
    Profoundly un-Christian , though, rendering unto Caesar what should be God’s…or vice-versa, offering unto God what is rightfully Caesar’s.

  19. airshowfan says:

    #2: Freedom of expression though. If he wants to be a jackass, his business can suffer (or not) for it.

    So if I have a business, I should be free to put a “No Jews” or “Whites Only” sign on the front door? I think not.

    PS: #38 FTW.

  20. Ugly Canuck says:

    The only thing a business can do is make business decisions. If corp.s are artificial persons it follows that their religion must also be artificial.
    (And please please end the occupation of Iraq, a more important matter than this, for a long long time now.Thanx for your indulgence in advance for considering this OT sentiment.)

  21. JSG says:

    If it is what he believes fine, those that like the ad can go and buy at his dealership, but I won’t be one of them.

  22. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    I knew it! I was discussing this this afternoon with my friend who writes radio ad copy. He was sure that Ford would have demanded an apology.
    Kieffe is now in hot water with Ford for retracting the apology and insulting more people, more. I wonder what they’re really up to. Maybe tie up Ford in a First Amendment legal wrangle for the publicity?

  23. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    Here’s an interesting article in The Bakersfield Californian with additional information about the situation:
    http://www.bakersfield.com/hourly_news/story/458415.html

  24. cr0m says:

    If he doesn’t go to church but identifies as a Christian, you can be pretty sure that “Christian” is a code word for “Not A F**cking Rag Head”.

    Freedom of expression though. If he wants to be a jackass, his business can suffer (or not) for it.

  25. noen says:

    Yeah, I think he likes the publicity. The best outcome would be if his business suffered and he went quietly bankrupt. But I doubt that will happen.

  26. Takuan says:

    guess who just lost their dealership?

  27. dragonfrog says:

    That would be some kind of interesting case – Ford is trying to stifle our First Amendment rights to utter anti-First Amendment speech.

    Which is presumably protected speech and whatnot, but it would require some pretty amusing logical contortions…

  28. Blackbird says:

    At least he was honest in not meaning the apology. I’m not defending him in any way…but the honesty is a little refreshing.

  29. Anonymous says:

    “so much so that public discourse on important issues has disappeared…”

    If you don’t think that the way the Christian majority in this country acts towards non-Christian members of society isn’t an important issue in our national discourse, I don’t know what to say.

    Do you not think that Christian attitudes to non-Christians had any effect on the lack of consideration given to the war in Iraq? Do you think it is not part of the attitude behind forcing Intelligent Design into the classrooms? Do you not think that religion is the primary reason people have been writing and passing Constitutional Amendments to prevent gays from marrying?

    What about the fact that churches that wanted to show inclusiveness in their ads were not allowed to air those ads on CBS or NBC, but exclusionary religious ads are never censored? And none of this reflects on public policy or media consolidation? If you want people to be more thoughtful on any of these things, if you want there to be space for you to operate freely and without intrusion when you find yourself in a minority position, you should probably find this discussion more interesting and pertinent to “the public discourse.”

    Certainly one of the most important aspects of free speech is that if there’s “bad” free speech out there, it is best to counter it with more free speech, such as our arguments about this ad, than to stifle it, which of course would be the ad writer’s approach. One thing the Internet has really helped us with is the fact that when these guys act like nobody really disagrees with them, they end up finding out how many “nobodies” there are out there.

  30. realitynotdreams says:

    I just heard the ad for the FIFTH time. This is fucking ridiculous.

  31. mojo_jojo says:

    When JW Horne is taken up the the big Ad Agency in the Sky, the Celestial Creative Director is going to take him off the God account, then he will have to sit down and shut up for all eternity.

  32. Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator says:

    Dainel @44, well said! If anyone in this situation could convince listeners that not all Christians are doofuses like Kieffe & Son, it would be you.

    Agent86 @46:

    Define “real Christian” in such a way that everyone who considers themselves a “real Christian” is included.

    Not possible — or rather, you can only do that by rendering meaningless the terms “Christian” and “real Christian”.

    Unfortunately for Kieffe & Son, we have it on good authority that not everyone who claims that title qualifies. This is from the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew:

    [15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    So there are your basic definitions. First, merely calling yourself a Christian, and considering yourself one, doesn’t cut the mustard.

    Next, adopting doctrines and practices whose effects run counter to Jesus’ teachings is not an indication that someone is a Christian. Kieffe & Son flunk this part of the test. Their supposedly Christian statements are just boastfulness and pride. They bring Christianity into disrepute. They aren’t ashamed to lie.

    Third, Christianity consists of doing your best to emulate Christ, and following his commandments, or God’s commandments as taught by him (depending on you opinion of the Trinity). They’re the same commandments either way.

    So, are Kieffe & Son Christians? I don’t know, and it would be extremely presumptuous of me to say. What I can say, though, is that their recent actions are anything but Christian.

  33. Automatt says:

    Geez, leave these people alone already.

  34. JoshuaZ says:

    Dragonfrog, Ford is a private company so there isn’t any First Amendment issue with them saying to this guy “If you keep saying this we won’t sell to you.”

  35. jonathan_v says:

    @5 There’s no ‘stifling’ or first amendment stuff going on here…

    The dealership is free to say whatever it wants… and Ford is free to say “you give our brand a bad name, and we’re revoking your dealership account and ability to use the Ford logo”

    I’m pretty sure that’s what Ford told the dealership before, and what @4 was suggesting.

  36. Matt Sanderson says:

    Okay, if you openly take it back, that kind of negates your appeasing them in the first place. There’s so much about this that doesn’t make sense. Sigh.

  37. dragonfrog says:

    I was referring to Ross @1. I guess you’re right though – only if the government was getting involved would a constitutional amendment have anything to do with it…

  38. Dan says:

    For a guy who doesn’t attend a church, he sure has that whole bigoted, redneck, cowardly Christian act down pretty well.

    I wonder if the folks at Ford will do the right thing and remove their affiliation with this maniac and his self-righteous nonsense. At this point, however, he seems to be milking that whole “there’s no such thing as bad publicity” thing.

  39. jimh says:

    I didn’t buy his apology in the first place. I thought the blog they made was probably a more accurate reflection of their position. When a small business owner says he didn’t sign off on ad copy, it’s pretty dubious. The honesty now isn’t refreshing to me as much as it just confirms my belief in the stupidity of these people.

  40. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    Maybe they’re angling for martyrdom. Many small car dealerships are failing. If they’re going down anyway, why not attract some attentions and sympathy with a lot of flames? It looks like a stupid thing to do, but what if they’re really doing something else, and it’s smart?

  41. RJ says:

    Pfft. Looks like a stupid marketing ploy, to me. Ford will most likely yank the account and just shut ‘em down. Insulting people simply for thinking differently is in very poor taste.

  42. chgoliz says:

    The link’s links didn’t work, so I couldn’t read the entire entry over on Consumerist, but the photo over there of the back of his car made me think of the “Stuff White People Like” post about bumper stickers. There’s even an east coast Ivy League wannabe university sticker on the back windshield.

    Just saying.

  43. picklefactory says:

    OK, I forgive everything just for ‘blog-lo-dites’. That is the best new word I’ve heard all year.

  44. CopyrightMe says:

    They can sell whoever they want to sell to. Who gives a rat’s ass?

  45. Modusoperandi says:

    Takuan; puns are the lowest form of humour.

  46. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    The Consumerist page that Cory’s link points to is presently not functioning properly but given their past work, will probably be a really good read when it is.
    You Blog-lo-dytes.

  47. cycle23 says:

    I’m just glad there’s scripture for me to read today on boing boing. Amen.

  48. Takuan says:

    blog-yo-dykes!!?? BLOG-YO-DYKES!!!???? oooooooh,now I’m really mad!

  49. Takuan says:

    so how do Christians protect their brand? Why haven’t they sued this car dealer into oblivion?

  50. Digital Artz says:

    Go Ford ,now take his franchise away.
    I am for giving up separation of Church and State
    so that religion institutions as a business become
    taxable (see em run).
    Let’s stop Religious tax fee welfare.
    Hit the laugh button.
    By the way Jesus does not like car pollution.

  51. S2 says:

    What a wonderful term — blog-lo-dites! (and not too far off the mark, reading these comments ;-) Welcome this guy to his 13 bytes of fame:
    “anti-Kieffe cars insurgence — so easy, even a blog-lo-dite can do it.”

  52. Agent 86 says:

    ha, thanks TNH, I was going for slight snark but it is always fun to be informed.

    Mostly I was saying that I don’t like it when the good folks of my religion of choice disown anyone who does public bad, as though it makes us look better. I feel like the Christian motto has become, “Join us, we’ll throw you to the wolves first chance we get!” Christianity should be about focusing on the positive and uplifting those around you, not ostracizing and dejecting.[IMHO]

    Also, I think I busted a blood-vessel laughing at your religious gas-mileage bit in one of the previous threads.

  53. mgfarrelly says:

    Daniel: Really well said. I’m a Unitarian and would extend the same invitation to the gentleman. At our church you’d hear conversations about science and faith, about working with secular groups to achieve good works common to all people.

    When we host meetings for Doctors without Borders or Habitat for Humanity we don’t post a bouncer at the door asking “Theist or Atheist?”

    What this person is doing is shameful and sad. Being known as the car dealer hates, period, is about as Un-Christian a sentiment as I can think of.

  54. phoomp says:

    Well, if they believe it so strongly, perhaps they should only sell to those who share their beliefs

  55. Jake0748 says:

    Well, as long as all you (us) bloglodites don’t shop at Mega-lo-mart.

    The guy, Keiffe, is still a prick and I hope his business goes down the toilet. He’s a bigot and a jerk.

  56. Mikey Likes BoingBoing says:

    Sooooo, when will the mass protests by scads of “real” and “decent” Christians against this guy take place?

  57. Antinous says:

    Shouldn’t it be bloglodyte with a ‘y’? Joan Blogford is rolling over in her grave.

  58. bshock says:

    There is an important (if obvious) lesson in this story: you can’t bully someone into being sorry for the fact that he’s a jerk. At best, you can just convince him to conceal his bigotry, and probably express it just as venomously but less publicly.

    Anecdotal evidence suggests to me that something similar has happened with racism in the U.S. Terms like “racist” and “bigot” have become pejorative, and so racists and bigots do their best to avoid public recognition as such. Simultaneously, they carry on the very behavior that defines the terms.

    At every office I’ve ever worked, there have been numerous individuals who make jokes and disparaging remarks about other ethnic groups in private, but who flatly deny being racists.

  59. Tenn says:

    More importantly, should a Christian even believe in the concept of a blog-lo-dite / bloglodyte, assuming he’s referencing the troglodyte?

    troglodyte \TROG-luh-dyt\, noun:
    1. A member of a primitive people that lived in caves, dens, or holes; a cave dweller.

  60. Jake0748 says:

    yeah, I was thinking it should be spelt with a y too.

  61. John Mark Ockerbloom says:

    TNH@57: The word my church uses for those that Jesus describes as entering the Kingdom of Heaven is “saint”.

    Which isn’t the same as “Christian”, as I see it, but is what Christians aspire to become: someone who has been saved, and is in unbreakable communion with God. (I realize this may be rather different from the LDS usage, which seems to apply “saints” to its church members in general.)

    Why not use “Christian” as a synonym for “saint”? Well, it’s helpful in general to have a word for people who believe in the basic, defining claims of a particular religion, and make some attempt to follow its precepts. That seems to be what most people use “Christian” to describe. It also makes it possible for me to others to describe people as “Christians” fairly reliably, whereas it would presumptuous of me to decide who among us is a saint.

    That means we’re stuck with both good Christians and bad Christians. But that’s no surprise: St. Paul tells us in effect that all of us Christians are bad Christians to some extent.

    I consider myself a Christian. I hope to be a saint, but I will have to leave that final definition of myself to God.

  62. Drewkulele says:

    Actually, this is standard policy at Ford. It’s well documented that Henry Ford himself was a notorious anti-semite and even ran an entire newspaper, the Dearborn Independent for the sole purpose of publishing his anti-semitic rants:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#Dearborn_Independent

    So, this is nothing new, really.

  63. eti says:

    This ad is un-American.

    Our country was founded on religious freedom. And by “founded,” I mean when invaded the Indians. And by “Inndians” I mean Native Americans.

  64. eti says:

    Mintphresh @71 “bloglodytes unite!”

    Shouldn’t that be “bloglodytes unyte!”?

  65. Agent 86 says:

    So, bigot and atrocious speller/creator of words?

  66. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    So if someone who blogs from a cave is a Blog-lo-Dyte then is Cory, who blogs from a hot air balloon a Blog-lo-Naut? Or a Blog-vi-Ator?

  67. ROSSINDETROIT says:

    @65: I truly hope you know better than this. Henry Ford’s attitudes 60 years ago are well known. That this affects the policies and actions of the company today is totally false.

  68. GregLondon says:

    I’m surprised someone mischievious hasn’t subscribed the dealership (or at least Kieffe) to every pagan, muslim, jewish newsletter and mailing campaign that they can find.

  69. Takuan says:

    Kieffe. kieffe, keffie, keffiyeh…KEFFIYEH!
    All becomes clear.

  70. Jake0748 says:

    spelt – I thought it was a funny. Guess not, thanks for your correction Agent86.

  71. Agent 86 says:

    ???
    no correction, simply a statement about the anti-godless owner.

  72. Phikus says:

    Jimh@13: You took the words right out of my keyboard. =D

    Automatt@8: We’ll leave them alone when they stop spewing their intolerance across the airwaves.

    Blog-o-dytes Unite!

    Dyslexics Untie!

  73. Jake0748 says:

    Agent – sorry for my misinterpretation, I’m too sleepy to keep up. Better I should go to bed.

  74. Antinous says:

    Spelt is steampunk spelling for spelled.

  75. Jake0748 says:

    bless you Antin, I knew I thought I wasn’t crazy.

  76. Xopher says:

    I’ve often spelt ‘spelled’ that way. Spelt is also a grain, IINM.

    As for this bozo car dealer, I hope Ford outright pulls his franchise now. First an offensive ad, then a half-assed non-apology (with a lie about not having approved the text of the ad), then announcing that his apology was insincere? I can’t see why they would still have patience with him.

  77. FutureNerd says:

    Next we’ll be hearing, “Wait– I wasn’t really sincerely retracting my retraction. I was just approached by some Christian groups in the area and they said they’d boycott me if I didn’t retract the retraction.”

    “And I didn’t mean ‘blog-lo-dites’ in a bad way– not really!”

    “Splunge!!”

  78. justpat says:

    The thing to do is to dress very nicely, visit his dealership, ask a hundred questions about a various cars, decide on one, take it for a test drive, haggle a bit, make a deal, then just before you sign the papers say “Oh, wait! *You’re* the Sit Down And Shut Up guys?? I’m sorry, I can’t do business with you!” And leave.

    Repeat with various friends and colleagues.

  79. Spoon says:

    It’s all over folks, the internet is done and finished. It’s been twenty years in the making (for me at least), but now the internet has amused itself to death… It’s no longer a playground for counter culture or a stomping ground for those wanting to expand their bounds… The random crap on the internet is officially overly concerned with a small town car dealership advert… so much so that public discourse on important issues has disappeared…


    We watched the tragedy unfold
    We did as we were told
    We bought and sold
    It was the greatest show on earth
    But then it was over
    We ohhed and aahed
    We drove our racing cars
    We ate our last few jars of caviar
    And somewhere out there in the stars
    A keen-eyed look-out
    Spied a flickering light
    Our last hurrah
    Our last hurrah

    — Roger Waters “Amused to death”

  80. minTphresh says:

    or: bloglodytes untie! as they are the ‘halve knots’.

  81. Antinous says:

    So, you don’t feel that the religious right taking over the US and imposing its views as the social norm is an important issue? Remarkable.

  82. dccarles says:

    Our Ford, who aren’t in Heaven,
    harrowed be thy name,
    thy dealership come,
    whose ad be dumb,
    according to Bakersfield Californian,
    give us this day our daily fundie,
    and forgive us our flames as we forgive those who flame against us,
    and lead us not into trollbait,
    but let us be civil,
    for thine is the corporation,
    the power of the story,
    for ever and ever,
    amen.

  83. Xopher says:

    JustPat 69: I will hail as Heroes of Our Revolution any who do so!

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