US Marines' "SS" flag

Probably not the best choice of font for the flag of the US Marine Corps Scout Snipers. From CNN:

The Marine Corps said it became aware of the photo last November and the local command investigated, but found it not to be racially motivated, according to a statement released by a Marine Corps spokesman, Lt. Col. Stewart Upton.

The unit's commander decided not to proceed with disciplinary action, it said, but all Marines in the unit were reminded that such behavior will not be tolerated and any further display could result in punishment.

"They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany," (Marine Corps Commandant, Gen. James) Amos said in his statement Friday.

"Panetta seeks probe of Marine SS flag" (CNN, thanks Ed Szylko!)

UPDATE: Mother Jones interviews Iraq war veteran Waitman Beorn, who blew the whistle on the Scout Snipers' unfortunate logo. Beorn is currently a visiting history professor at Loyola University New Orleans and a Fulbright and Guggenheim fellowship recipient who teaches at the National Holocaust Memorial Museum.

• [KBert]

  “I point to *” “I point to *” “That is all”

• [Flashman]

  “They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany,”

  That is bullshit. Anybody with even a passing knowledge of WWII (and for sure anybody in the Marine Corps *ought* to, if not be an outright expert) knows that the ‘lightning bolts’ were the emblem of the SS.
  These guys thought the SS were badass, plain as that.

  • [Bucket]

    Came here to say almost exactly that.

    If they don’t know what that symbol means, they’re too stupid to be given the pointy scissors, much less guns.

  • [jonw]

    After 19 years in the Army, and gazing at a bookshelf with a half dozen WW2 books that I’ve read, I have never heard of the “lightning bolts.” 

    What movie did you watch where becoming an expert on a 70 year old war is part of Marine Corps training?

    • [Jonathan Roberts]

      After 19 years in the Army, and gazing at a bookshelf with a half dozen WW2 books that I’ve read, I have never heard of the “lightning bolts.” 
      Seriously?

      • [C W]

        He might not have ever heard them referred to as “lightning bolts” but he’s definitely heard of the SS and seen the stylized runes.

    • [MrEricSir]

       Let me guess, you never heard of the swastika either?

    • [Antinous / Moderator]

      The Marines are always carrying on about how they’re the cream of the military.  If that doesn’t include classes in military history, then that ain’t cream.

      • [IamInnocent]

        I think that they mean that they cream themselves when they kill.

    • [euansmith]

      I know that WWII is a bigger deal over here in the UK than in the US (after all, you’ve got Vietnam to distract you). However, it does seem to stretch credulity that none of the 10 guys pictured didn’t blush when using the Lindsey England Defence (“Ah did not realise that what ah was doin’ wuz wrong…”) when asked about the flag.

      Publishers long ago realised that Nazis sell books, so I’m surprised that none of your half dozen WWII did at least have a picture of an SS goon on the cover in a coalscuttle helmet emblazoned with swastikas, eagles and double lightning insignia.

      Anyhow, the Marine Corps teaches its recruits about battles taking place in 1805 and 1847 – “From the Halls of Montezuma, To the shores of Tripoli”, so maybe you can excuse us civilians for over thinking this issue.

      • [Edward Pearse]

        They may have been distracted by Vietnam but remember how many “If it weren’t fer us you’d all be speakin’ German now” have you heard?

        • [Daniel Davies]

          That’s massively overestimating our (the Britishes) ability to learn foreign languages.

        • [euansmith]

          I think that we are speaking German aren’t we? Anglo-Saxon? :)

        • [retepslluerb]

          Yeah, and if it weren’t for French assistance during the revolution, the Americans would be speaking English.  

    • [synesthesia]

      wow, really? 
      Somebody just please take away their guns already. 

    • [Toby Collins]

       Im sorry but the difference is that they displayed a flag with them on in the background of a photo next to the american flag, that wasnt just random chance, they didnt just stumble across an ss flag in the desert one day and think “that looks funky lets take a snapshot”. The way the army and government stand up for this kind of bullshit disgusts me.

    • [Jim Saul]

      You’ve read a dozen W2 histories without running across the SS? Bullshit. This symbol was in use for decades by this team without knowledge of the SS connection? Bullshit.

    • [Guest]

      The one where they weren’t talking about me so I didn’t glaze over.

      Also, lack of any shame or any ability or observe that offense has been taken, noted.

    • [SomeGuyNamedMark]

      I agree, all you did was gaze at those books.  You sure didn’t read any of them.

  • [Stooge]

    Bullshit, you say?

    The KISS logo also famously features a pair of lightning bolts, and Gene Simmons never had a problem with it. You know, the Gene Simmons born Chaim Weitz in Israel in 1949 to a mother who survived the concentration camps?

    Unless you wish to claim that Simmons has a less than passing knowledge of WWII or thinks the SS were badass, you might want to consider the possibility that your implied dichotomy is in fact a false one.

    • [GameMaster9002]

      Gene Simmons isn’t military or paid with taxpayer dollars.

    • [BlackPanda]

      Yeah, but the context is completely different. KISS weren’t posing in front of the Israeli (or US) flag with guns.

    • [Tino]

      Yeah, and KISS did it for the fucking shock value of using the SS-Runes. Same reason in both occasions.  The difference is one of both groups is a weak-ass poser metal group that wears plateau-shoes and grotesque make-up, the other are the official armed forces of a nation. 

      • [Robert Baruch]

        That latter, then, must be the KISS Army.

        • [Felton / Moderator]

          KISS don’t need an army, on account of their supernatural powers.

      • [SomeGuyNamedMark]

         And Sid Viscous wore a swastika t-shirt because he knew it would shock people.

        • [millie fink]

          And it worked too, especially when he was hocking viscous loogies on them.

        • [AttackHamster]

          Sid Viscous sounds extremely thick to me.

        • [millie fink]

          Word is that he was pretty thick, and during down time, rather phlegmatic as well.

    • [adonai]

       Did the controversy that ensued (and it did, back in the day) help KISS sell some more records/Tshirts/concert tickets and generate some more money? Then of course Gene Simmons didn’t have a problem with it.

      • [retepslluerb]

        He also didn’t have a problem with changing the logo for the German market since 1979. 

    • [bcsizemo]

       I heard this as an argument when this first came out, and personally I think it’s a pretty good one.  Considering most of those guys aren’t over 30 that makes them born before 1980…  Hell, I’d like to know how many people going into the military today have used a rotary phone?  (I’m 32 and we had one till I was around 6 or 7.)  I’ve worked with people today who are 21 and younger and things like that just go right over their head.  So it really wouldn’t surprised me if they were more emulating KISS (and several other bands that have used the lighting bolt style S) than the Nazi SS. 

      • [Guest]

        they never learned that torture is wrong, how the fuck are they supposed to know the symbolism behind it. 

        amirite?

        • [creativehumanoid]

           Ya’ know what? I was in the Navy and WE were taught that torture is wrong. (In SERE school to be precise – look it up.) In fact, I STILL have my Geneva Convention booklet that provides instruction on the proper and humane way to treat prisoners, etc.

        • [jwkrk]

          Torture is wrong, m’kay?

      • [Stooge]

        My argument is more that the symbol is not uniquely and inalienably specific to the SS, in the same way that a cross is not a uniquely Christian symbol, and small differences in shape and color give it a panoply of different meanings. Yes, it’s like the SS symbol, but so are death’s heads found in the insignia of many military units around the world – or the Pirate Bay logo, for that matter – but it doesn’t mean they’re all Nazi wannabes.

        That being said, I saw a link to a site which sells a flag that appears identical to the one posed with. If that is indeed where it was bought, it would be a little tricky to maintain the line that whoever bought it wasn’t aware of an association with Nazism.

        • [lyd]

          The caption on that page refers to it as “a favorite and well-known SS flag”, too.

    • [SomeGuyNamedMark]

       So you are implying that they were representing KISS?  Do we also have a Quiet Riot unit?

    • [C W]

      Except they weren’t flying the KISS flag, which is a different thing with an entirely different context.

  • [Tino]

    Hey, maybe they were gigantic KISS fans and just stood unfortunately in front of the KI ??

  • [Noctilucent Studios]

    The US Military is the largest cult in the world. Think about it. Look at the similarities in indoctrination between boot camp and cults. The US Military is also full of gang members and wannabe gang members. This flag should come as no surprise to anyone who’s spent even a small amount of time around a military base. Especially the ones in the southern US.

    American Spring.

    • [Mantissa128]

       It would be amazing to see. However I feel they are heading for an American Fall.

    • [creativehumanoid]

      I meet quite a few young military people on a regular basis, and I haven’t met any I thought were gang material. I don’t know why you people have such hard-ons for people just barely out of their teens. Save your anger for the politicians.

  • [WVMikeP]

    You’re giving our public education system too much credit.

• [ARWilson]

  Bullshit.

• [ARWilson]

  They’re extremely ignorant at best.

  • [Guest]

    we, and they, are told they are our best.

    Apparently we suck and are shameless about it. 

• [Michael Leung]

  “They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany,”

  Oh so they’re not offensive, they’re just stupid. Good to know that’s the kind of bloodthirsty warrior we have out in the field.

  • [Wreckrob8]

    Wouldn’t want to distract them with facts, now, would ya? It’s not what the politicians would want, is it? Best to keep history as far away as possible even at the expense of people inventing their own histories.

• [noah django]

  In Anthony Swofford’s book Jarhead, where he chronicles being a marine scout sniper, he writes of being made to take a course in the history of the marines, which included WW2, obviously.  Plus–what?–none of those dudes ever saw ANY WW2 movies?  This has got to be bullshit.  There’s just no way.

  WTF were these dudes thinking?

• [d4l3d]

  If we’re to believe they were that naive, I’d rather they weren’t given guns.

• [Thebes]

  Sorry, I just can’t see ten out of ten members of the USMC’s elite white kill team being completely ignorant that this emblem was used by Hitler’s elite kill teams.

  • [millie fink]

    “White” kill team? Google didn’t find that one for me. What do you mean?

    • [jackbird]

       Perhaps he should have said “caucasian kill team,” although to me two of the guys in the bottom row have faces too obscured to tell.

• [Ian Wood]

  Fucking Nazis. Ruined runes for everyone.

  • [Wermund Wangensten Vetrhus]

    Not runes at all, Runes don’t look like that at all. At least not the Norse ones…

• [vonskippy]

  Poorly educated and stupid – another example of America’s finest.

  So are the Marines like the Police Force in the States?  They won’t take anyone with an IQ over 110?

  • [Warren_Terra]

    American cops do a lot of dumb, despicable things, especially the more militarized American cops.

    That said, your comment was overly sweeping and not fair. You might want to look at, for example, this video before tarring all US cops with the same brush.

  • [creativehumanoid]

    What makes you think they’re poorly educated. If you mean that most don’t have college degrees, you’re probably right. If you mean that most have not graduated high school, your probably wrong. Getting into the military isn’t all that easy if you’ve got a GED (high school graduation equivalent for those that dropped out).

    What these KIDS did is wrong at worst, and more likely just ignorant. There’s a lot of metal music of various varieties floating around out there, and it’s entirely possible that one or more of them heard “storm trooper” and saw the symbol and thought “bad ass” without realizing the Nazi connection.

    It’s SO easy to adopt a “presumption of guilt” attitude when you’re dealing with someone whose ideals might be different than yours. What about those “poorly educated” conservatives living in trailers that say “fry ‘em all?” Are YOU any different? No, you’re just 180 degrees out on your prejudices.

• [buster_friendly]

  I’m sick of nazi-worshipping liars posing as united states marines. Really.

• [Jay Kinney]

  Given that the Nazi SS were a kind of iconic archetype  of the elite “we’ll take care of the dirty work, boss!” embodiment of military esprit d’ corp… the sympatico felt by our Marines with an earlier SS elite is not incomprehensible. Not admirable, of course. But understandable if you dig deep enough into military psychology. 

• [Guest]

  Hang on. The last 10 years. And this is what we collectively decide is too far? sigh. 

  • [euansmith]

    “Nooooooooooo!”

  • [synesthesia]

    one would think the actual death squads would be enough, but no. 

  • [Toby Collins]

     Dont be stupid, people decided we went a little too far a long time ago but they are still allowed to comment on new stories that arise, or are you suggesting that once we realise its gone too far we should then just sit back and stop paying any attention.

    • [Guest]

      No. No. I get to be ‘stupid’

• [Mel Phistopheles]

  Perhaps they’re just huge fans of the band KISS? Nah, just a bunch of ignorant jerks. Honestly, can anyone believe that not ONE guy in this group said, “Hey, using a Nazi symbol, ANY Nazi symbol for our logo, is probably a very, very bad idea?”.

• [headcode]

  Am I the only one who doesn’t really expect any better than this from the Marines?  Do you really think that guys whose job is killing people really care that someone stateside might find this offensive?

  • [Guest]

    I expected better of the marines. past tense.

• [housechore]

  It may not be a genocide, but the irony is rich here considering the count on civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq.

  • [millie fink]

    Yeah. Except, come to think of it, it’s actually not ironic. It’s entirely appropriate.

• [goldenearth]

  the symbol for the SS is definitely not as well known as the swastika or other symbols of hatred

  • [ocker3]

     You have to look real close to see the lightning bolt symbols on uniforms worn by the SS. I’ve read mountains of books and seen scores of movies about WWII, I didn’t realise the import of that flag without the headline.

    • [Guest]

       ”ocker3″, there are quite a few people, including myself, who know what those symbols are and their history.  One can find pictures of such easily in books.

      This incident is a disgrace to the Corp.

    • [euansmith]

      Someone had to get hold of the flag or at least the design if they made it themselves. Before this current story broke, I’m guessing that any search for lightning rune flags would have highlighted their history.

      If these guys knew nothing of the flags history, then, surely they would have chosen some more obviously “badass” design; like a skull and crossbones, flaming skull, dagger, reticule, bullet, blood drop or some such.

      • [Jim Saul]

        Good point… one guy might be ignorant, or even three or four. But you can’t show that symbol to more than a handful of people without one of them pointing out what it is. And to get to that staged photo with a professionally printed flag without the symbol being recognized is beyond reasonable belief.

      • [Jonathan Roberts]

        And if they did know of the flag’s history, they might also know that quite a few of the alternate symbols you mention were also used by the Nazis.

• [eli laztanguren]

  Reminds me of the old Woody Allen joke. Hitler’s barber appears before the judge at Nuremberg: “I did not know Hitler was a nazi”.

  • [retepslluerb]

    Another great one was from Billy Wilder’s 1-2-3

    C.R. MacNamara: Just between us, Schlemmer, what did you do during the war? 
    Schlemmer: I was in der Untergrund: the underground. 
    C.R. MacNamara: Resistance fighter? 
    Schlemmer: No, motorman. In the underground, you know, the subway. 

• [Mike Chewie Bennett]

  so, two options;
  either these soldiers are some of the most CLUELESS marines ever…completely ignorant of military history of the last 80 years, including an enemy that the U.S spent 5 years smashing.
  ~OR~
  this is a pack of nazi worshiping scum bags in one of the most elite units of the USMC. and their officers never noticed

  • [cfuse]

     There’s a big difference between not noticing and not caring (or being wholly sympathetic).

    • [euansmith]

      Good point. I think that “not caring” might be a really good emotional  survival trait if your job revolves around shooting people with a rifle fitted with a high powered scope so you can see all the gory details. Its certainly not a job I’d be willing to do.

      • [ihavenomouthandimustscream]

         Actually look back to this
        http://boingboing.net/2012/01/25/the-mind-of-a-sniper.html
        maybe there should be a line between “not caring” and dehumanizing?

      • [The Life Of Bryan]

        I’d agree with your basic point, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what the scope on the rifle is for.

        • [euansmith]

          More of a fringe benefit?

          But, really, no. I find it difficult enough to imagine what the life of a trawler fisherman or abattoire worker must be like; let alone a career that places you in grave personal damager and requires that you kill people and it must be worse for snipers as they are forced to chose their targets (with the help of their spotter) and see the result of their work.

  • [Mark Cresswell]

    “the U.S spent 5 years smashing.”

    The USA didn’t spend 5 years in WW2. They came to the table rather late compared to other western powers – in December 1941.

    • [euansmith]

      They may have arrived late, but they were a welcome guest all the same :)

  • [Daniel Smith]

     false dichotomy much?

  • [jeligula]

    Yes, Mike, Marines can be as clueless as anybody else.  Considering their jobs, that it almost a desirable trait.  War desensitizes people to the point where you get crap like this.  It is no great wonder that they may be identifying with another elite unit of what they consider to be ultimate warriors.  I’m not saying it’s right, I am saying it is not surprising in the least and calling them Nazi worshiping scum bags is going too far.  You have no idea of their religious or political beliefs and the display of one symbol is not incontrovertible proof of anything but poor judgement.

• [Joel Phillips]

  So, some members of the US military failed to anticipate cultural, historical and political significance of their actions.  Oh yeah, and some guys appear to have a dubious flag.  

• [Mike Birtwistle]

  So I’m the only one who looked at that and thought, “woo hoo KISS tribute!”

• [Jason Heath]

  Just and FYI, the Marines never served in Europe in WWII, they were in the Pacific Island Hopping Campaign and therefore that part of the war is not taught as Marine Corps History.  Also, could you call everybody that drives a Mercedes Benz or a Volkswagen Nazi lovers because those are the two German auto manufacturers that Hitler chose, why are they overlooked as participants in the Holocaust and their symbols still permitted.  The bottom line is that our, the United States, undoing will not be some outside force that takes us over, but ourselves ripping what we have built apart because we have become week and thin-skinned.  Time to grow up America and quit being children.

  • [Drabula]

    Jason Heath – the new BB resident bad-ass here to toughen all us kiddies up and to desensitize us limpy-wrists to Nazi iconography, lest AMERICA WILL FALL!!

  • [cfuse]

     I view it less about being thin-skinned and more about being doomed to repeat history. These soldiers clearly don’t read about the past (whether they are racists or not) nor understand how it relates to the present.

    And for the record, the SS flag has no context outside of being a tainted symbol of the SS. Plenty of companies and individuals were on the wrong side of the war, but they redeemed themselves. That possibility doesn’t exist for the SS (for obvious reasons) and therefore their banner can only stand for what they stood for at the time.

    I am not American, but if I saw *my* flag being defiled by an SS flag I would be incensed – that isn’t being thin-skinned, it’s having principles.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    …the Marines never served in Europe in WWII, they were in the Pacific Island Hopping Campaign and therefore that part of the war is not taught as Marine Corps History.

    Does that mean that they’ve never heard of Clausewitz because the Marines weren’t involved in the Napoleonic Wars?  They only study their own history and no other military history or theory?  No wonder we need all that technology.

    • [Seraphim_72]

       You want Military History, Theory, Strategy, Tactics and Elan out of your average grunt? Would you like a cookie as well? And as long as we are asking for supermen how do like your eggs? All the Marines are asking for is ‘Can you obey orders?’ and ‘Can you shoot at what I tell you to?’ They are soldiers not philosophers.

    • [euansmith]

      “Descartes! You’re in the army of Maurice of Nassau! Drop and give me a method that thoroughly links mathematics and physics! “

    • [GertaLives]

      Yes, it does mean that. I served as a Marine infantryman (flame away!), and whether or not BoingBoing readers want to believe it, the *vast* majority of these guys know little to nothing about US history. There is in fact a fair bit of history drilled in during boot camp, but as mentioned above, it’s strictly Marine history, and Marines were confined to the Pacific theater. And of course it’s not some deep discussion of wars’ narratives or ethical ramifications; it’s some guy screaming “Mount Suribachi!” and a bunch of kids screaming it back.

      It’s also worth pointing out that none of this particularly distinguishes Marines from your average American teenager with poor grades. I once had to listen to my interminably patient landlord, an aging WWII vet and a Jew to boot, clarify for some young physical therapist that Hitler was a big name in WWII rather than WWI, and that he was not, in fact, Italian. Seriously.

      None of this excuses the ignorance of Marines — they really should know better, and the higher echelons really do have a better grasp of history for the most part. But it doesn’t at all surprise me that Marine Scout Snipers wouldn’t recognize different SS of much greater historical significance.

    • [jeligula]

      In a nutshell, Antinous, that is exactly what it means, at least for the average enlisted Marine.  Marine officers are an entirely different story.  Erwin Rommel’s “On Attacks” is required reading for them.  If a company commander didn’t at least try to think like Rommel while improvising tactics to correct for enemy movement, he would not be doing his job.  However, you are correct in pointing out that technology can obviate tactical thinking.

  • [Rezeya Montecore]

    I’m not sure you’re going to make much headway anywhere besides a Stormfront message board, by arguing that sensitivity towards blatant Nazi symbology is “being children.” 

    Do you have anything even remotely resembling a sensible argument as to why or how not allowing our military to use motherf*cking SS logos is going to sap our national strength in any meaningful literal way? This should be quite entertaining.

  • [TheMudshark]

    And now for a game of odd one out:
    A) Volkswagen   B) Mercedes Benz   C) Bavarian Motor Works   D) The SS

    If you need a hint, let me know, but I´m sure you can do it if you put your mind to it, Jason.

  • [gyffes]

     I’m not week, I’m daily, dammit!

    And don’t look now, but your solipsism is showing. You’ve conflated ideas that are not the same and are using that straw man to support the insupportable.

  • [jeligula]

    Mitsubishi manufactured the Japanese “Zero” fighter.  After the war, they retooled for a civilian economy, because their participation in such was absolute necessity for rebuilding.  Same with the aforementioned companies in Germany.  Prosecuting BMW factory workers as war criminals would not have been productive in the least.  But I agree that we are our own worst enemy.  The melting pot that created a stronger alloy out of baser metals is no longer our strength, but our weakness, as willingness to sacrifice turns into entitlement and division along cultural lines.

  • [Ipo]

    June 6, 1944 
    Marines and U.S. Army land in Normandy which began the Allied assault on German positions in France. 
    Does that count?
    Royal. So I guess not.

  • [C W]

    “undoing will not be some outside force that takes us over, but ourselves ripping what we have built apart because we have become week and thin-skinned”

    Hrmmm, I’ve heard that rhetoric before, but I can’t quite place it…

• [Ladyfingers]

  First thing that sprung to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y

  • [euansmith]

    “Hans… are we the baddies?”

    Thank you for that :)

  • [Felton / Moderator]

    Yes!!

• [allybeag]

  They’re trained to do as they’re told, and follow orders without question. Some other idiot – probably not even a uniformed idiot – created that sign, and the marines just accepted it, becuase they’re trained not to question things. That’s not to say they’re not idiots of course …

  • [IamInnocent]

     Actually, they’re not idiots, of course.

    • [allybeag]

       Of course not. Well, not all of them, anyway. But the one who created that sign …

      • [C W]

        Bought off Neo-Nazi site != “created”.

  • [cfuse]

    Using the Nuremberg defence to defend US soldiers standing in front of an SS flag has to be some sort of unholy fusion of Godwin’s law and arch irony.

    • [Eddie Perkins]

      Why can’t I Like this comment more than once? I keep clicking but nothing is happening. 

  • [jeligula]

    It really surprises me how many people think that Marines are non-thinking robots.  Initiative is actually valued above most everything else in the Marine Corps.  It is the US Army that punishes initiative and critical thinking, not the Marine Corps.  Rejecting discipline when such can keep you alive is not a sign of intelligence.

• [twodimensionalme]

  I have to admit it’s not hard for me to believe that those marines “were ignorant”.

  • [IamInnocent]

     Then you know nothing of the Marine Corp.

    • [jeligula]

      Apparently, neither do you.  It’s Marine Corps.  Corp is the abbreviation for corporation.

      • [Henry Goodwin]

        Then it would make perfect sense to call it the Marine Corp. since we do live in a fascist society after all.

    • [millie fink]

      Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but–if they were ignorant of that symbol’s meaning, then what in the world did they think the letters “SS” stand for?

      Edit: okay, found it, “scout snipers”

    • [twodimensionalme]

      Marine Corp. Ltd. All Rights Reserved.

      No, really, how would you call a bunch of people bringing their SS flag around? I’d call them ignorant.

      And, let’s say they ignore what SS stands for. How would you call a bunch of people that ignore the meaning of SS, but at the same time they carry it around? I’d call them ignorant.

      But don’t get angry… we’re all ignorant. It’s the human nature.
      There are a lot of things we ignore. All of us.

• [Ken Yee]

  http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/exclusive-marines-nazi-flag-whistleblower-talks has an interview with the person who was emailed a picture of the flag and ended up complaining to the Marines Inspector general.  Turns out he was a West Point grad, served in Iraq, and an expert on the Holocaust and military decisionmaking and ethics .

  • [formosaman]

    That link provides a lot more context for this incident, including that one marine had the symbol as tattoo for 17 years and that the flag itself could very well have been bought off an internet site like this one: http://www.totls.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16%3Aclose-out-corner&catid=1%3Ahome&Itemid=30 

    Anyone buying something off that site would be well aware of the symbols connections to nazi germany.  

    • [Christopher Lee]

       HOLY SHIT.

      You really can get anything on the Internet. Well – if you wanted to buy some honest-to-god jackboots, that website’s gotcha covered. Yikes.

      • [Jonathan Roberts]

        I thought the pentagram knives were cool, although you’d need to buy two of those ‘favorite and well known SS flags’ that this group chose as well as a set of political leaders swastika armbands to qualify for getting it as a free gift. On the other hand, if I can find five or six people to buy a ‘Deutschland Erwache’ banner made from my eagle and plaque molds, it’s basically all profit! So… anyone interested in some authentic-looking Nazi insignia?

  • [Navin_Johnson]

    Yep, can we just stop now with the disingenuousness folks?

    The only part of the Marine Corps response that is a little troubling is the automatic assumption that these Marines had no idea what symbol they were appropriating. For example, from CNN: “They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany.” I have a hard time believing that. One or two Marines, okay. But all of them, including their leadership? Also, the comment by the spokeswoman that they couldn’t have known because that’s not what Marines are about seems hard to believe, as does the revelation that this is NOT an isolated incident.

• [spejic]

  These comments are full of the logical fallacy of assuming what you know is either common knowledge or considered worth knowing by most people. Boing Boing readers are far more educated, more well read, and older than those Marines. You can’t base your supposition of what these people probably know based on your own knowledge. Something like 1/3rd of Americans don’t even know we fought the Germans in WWII, let alone what symbols the German political army used.

  And what movies feature SS regalia? And remember that when Saving Private Ryan came out, those Marines were around 6-7, and they were babies when Schindler’s List was in theatres. Not that I recall SS symbols in Saving Private Ryan. Or Call of Duty 3.

  • [James]

    Reckon they’d be able to stretch that excuse to the swastika?

    • [dainel]

      Here I am, at the far end of Asia.  I do not know the SS symbol. If you were to show the symbol to 1000 people here, there’s a good chance that less than 10 would recognize it.

      You might find this hard to believe, but ask them about the Nazi SS, and more than half the time, the answer would come back “what’s SS”? This stuff isn’t even taught in history class in school. Sure WW2 is mentioned. Nazis are mentioned. We might see a picture of the swastika. But when it comes to WW2, the focus is on local events. The curriculum does not include the history of Germany.

      I’ll bet you that more than half the 7 billion people on earth today do not know what is the SS, much less their symbol.

      • [James]

        Invalid example is invalid.

        I don’t find it hard to believe that people out at the far end of Asia don’t know what it is, I find it hard to believe that US Marines don’t know what it is given the impact of Nazi iconography in the west.

      • [C W]

        These are American soldiers, well versed on WWII in all aspects of pop culture and administered by warriors who are trained in military history.

        They have not lived in “the far end of Asia” all their lives.

  • [HahTse]

     What about Inglourious Basterds?

  • [IamInnocent]

     Then how did they find the SS symbol and knew that it could be used in this way?
    Logical fallacies… yeah!

  • [Hanglyman]

     I can believe that some of them were genuinely ignorant of it- when I was a kid in elementary school I made a Christmas card from an elf called “Lucifer”, completely ignorant that the name was associated with Satan. It was just a Christmas-elfy-sounding name to me. These guys aren’t kids, but sure, these things slip past some people.

    But ALL of them? Not ONE of these guys (in the freakin’ MILITARY!) is educated enough to recognize that symbol, yet they can still make an exact duplicate of it by sheer coincidence, out of all the styles of the letter S they could have used? That’s really pushing it.

  • [MarcVader]

    Some pictures of SS officers in Indiana Jones movies. Your argument is invalid.

     http://images.wikia.com/indianajones/images/1/1d/Ss_officer.jpg
    http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss104/GreenGang/Indiana%20Jones/750.jpg
    http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/gallery/dvdscreenshots/220.jpg

• [Adam Coe]

  I think the thing several of you are missing is the fact that if they were ignorant of the significance of the symbol as they claim, they wouldn’t have a flag there with the symbol on it in the first place. You can’t possibly tell me that they just happened to pick the exact same symbol used by the SS, but in their case, by “gee shucks, huge coincidence, we had no idea!”, stands for “scout snipers.” The least these big manly men Marines could do is actually man up and admit it was simply a picture taken in poor taste, and then just go about their business of shooting far less well trained and equipped people, and try to keep their jokes out of the media like they usually do. I’m actually not even really offended so much at the Nazi reference as the idea that they just piss in our face and tell us it’s raining with their oversight of one of the biggest and well known events in military history.

  • [Guest]

     
    

    I think the thing several of you are missing is the fact that if they were ignorant of the significance of the symbol as they claim, they wouldn’t have a flag there with the symbol on it in the first place.

    Exactly.

  • [C W]

    “they wouldn’t have a flag there with the symbol on it in the first place.”

    RIGHT UNDER THE US FLAG, exactly.

• [retepslluerb]

  Even when taking the excuse at face value, because they are apparently just grunts with training, but no education: Why wasn’t this caught earlier? 

  I mean, the various branches of the  US military are under scrutiny, both by the national and international press. They are running all over the work and have to get along with various uneasy allies and civilians of occupied territories. 

  Nicknames and mascots may have morale building values, but don’t they get checked by officers? Preferably educated officers? 

• [ookluh]

  “And what [recent and popular] movies feature SS regalia?”
  http://jwakeham.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/inglourious_basterds49-jpg.jpeg

  Next question.

  This was supposed to be in response to spejic above. Out of context, but the point still stands: ignorance is a highly dubious defense.

• [esther wieringa]

  Ummm… Wir haben es nicht gewusst? Is that an excuse now?

• [RichardT]

  Very simple surely.  Just get these marines to parade through Jerusalem with their pretty flag and use the excuse ‘we didn’t know what it was’.

  • [C W]

    Right, or station them in Germany. Their “unofficially sanctioned” flag will surely go over as well as it has in all other operations.

• [soundslike]

  So they’re Nazis… Or they’re stupid… Or they’re stupid Nazis…

  And they get all the big scary guns?

• [Tino]

  Maybe they wanted to muffle discussions about them on the internet by making everybody break Godwin’s law immediately. 

• [Stephan]

  This image is a nice summary of the last ten years and what the US and it’s military have become. You might call these soldiers stupid. I would say it’s quite the opposite. I think they found the fitting logo for what the rest of the world sees in the US since they engaged in their “War on Terror”. Obama didn’t change anything about that. 

  • [euansmith]

    So the true subtext of this story is, “Shock! Horror! Americans discover irony!”? :)

    • [millie fink]

      Pfft. That’ll be the day.

• [Ladyfingers]

  Nearly every military type I know kind of mildly fetishises Nazi stuff. Not necessarily with any sympathy, but I mean, if you’re into militaria at all, it’s the most stunningly iconic stuff around and appeals to a transgressive streak. Go to any hobby shop and the shelves are full of it. I do not believe for one second that there was not even one man in this bunch of tough guys that neither knew of the SS or had never at least seen the runes on the spines of their father’s book collection. Let alone not on the damn all-Hitler-all-the-time History Channel.

  • [Gordon JC Pearce]

     I do recall listening to a radio programme about design and the Nazis that pretty much made that point – that the Nazi swastika is simply a *stunning* piece of graphic design if you step away from its connotations for a moment.  It’s a shame they were such unpleasant people because they had some really really good industrial design.

    • [Wayne Dyer]

      The Nazis did have cool looking regalia overall.  That’s why people with no ideological connections to the Nazis still are attracted to it.  

    • [C W]

      Don’t forget the fashion.

• [lumpygravy2]

  Ignorant is the operative word here, and disrespectful.  Admitted by their own commanders.

  Excellent example of the IQ suited for what passes as mercenary thuggery in service to Exxon.

• [deadserfs]

  Ladyfingers  – I would disagree, most of the young men I have seen preparing for entry in the Marine Corp, out of high school are not military history buffs. There is nothing in the current high school history curriculum that would have covered WWII history in detail enough to come across the symbol of the waffen ss. At some point the meaning of symbols fade, especially if we don’t teach their importance and censor them.

  Of note the symbols shown in the picture are similar but not actually the symbols used by the waffen ss. The ss symbol is more like a lightening bolt, the middle of the s is at an angle not flat. Not to mention the blue background vs the black background used by the waffen ss. 

  Why join the Marines courtesy of answersatyahoo:
  Honor of being a Marine

  Physically fit

  One of the few, the proud, no its not just a commercial.

  Serving your country

  Free college

  Bonus yes if you qualify(IE the job they need you in and ASVAB is good enough, etc)

  Girls love Marines :P

  Travel

  Adventure

  Career

  Leadership skills

  • [James]

    Your list doesn’t mention the potential to win your own pine box.

    • [deadserfs]

      not the best selling point but true.

  • [euansmith]

    “Service grantees citizenship!”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11NMhVdbD0E

    • [bcsizemo]

       I like this better:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc

      • [euansmith]

        Um… that was kind of the subtext of my post. Sorry I didn’t make it more explicit.

        • [bcsizemo]

          Actually I should apologize, mine was meant as more humorous than anything…  Sometimes things just don’t come across the same way on the internet.

  • [MarcVader]

     Travel the world. Meet interesting new people. And kill them.

    (Paraphrased from Schlock Mercenary)

• [Brood-X]

  They may be ignorant about 20th century world history but at least they can point to Afghanistan on a map. Most Americans can’t do that. Just sayin’.

  • [gyffes]

     Most Americans can barely tie their own shoes — largely because they cannot see them anymore.

  • [millie fink]

    at least they can point to Afghanistan on a map. 

    Yeah, but only because they’ve been sent there to kill its citizens. And you’re saying that’s a good thing?

    • [James Patton]

      War is God’s way of teaching Americans geography.

• [legotech]

  I’m sorry to say that I can believe that they had no clue. I recently saw a license plate 2OTEN SS…I immediately read that as Toten SS, because I *am* aware of history.  I snapped a picture and showed it to a few people and then had to explain to them who the Toten SS were. One of the people I had to explain it to was my Sister who really SHOULD know better considering that she knows we lost family to the Holocaust…there is an entire branch of our family who just disappeared. 

  So yeah, I can believe that these kids had no idea, our education system has failed more than just these boys.

  (when I brought this complaint to the DMV I was told the plate is supposed to represent 2010 super sport…so even if the intention was innocent, the fact that they had no clue it could possibly mean anything else is quite telling.  And yes, I filed a complaint against the plate to have it pulled, even if it’s intention was innocent, the fact that it CAN be construed the other way means it needs to not be driving around Little Israel in Los Angeles. Yes, I live in a very Jewish neighborhood and this plate was seen in my neighborhood)

  • [TheMudshark]

    Do you mean the Totenkopf-SS?

    • [jeligula]

      Totenkopf or Waffen Schutzstaffel, the insignia was the same.

• [JenniferL]

  IF American students were properly taught history, then American students would not be eager to wage wars of aggression.The American economy would then completely collapse. 

• [orwell]

  the more disturbing commentary within this story, in-line with other recent US military “oopsies,” is that these guys are never reprimanded or punished…

  go ahead, urinate on dead bodies, wipe out innocent civilians, fly a nazi tribute flag…just like with local law enforcement, if you actually get caught, we’ll just sweep it under the door…

  but god forbid you obtain information that might make the US look foolish or prove us to be liars, THEN we’ll throw the book at you…

• [snagglepuss]

  Several quotes from the web…

  “Marine Corps integrity is doing that thing which is right, when no one is looking” – Col Colin Lampard, USMC

  “The American marines are terribly reckless fellows…They would make very good storm troopers” – Unidentified German officer at Belleau Wood.

  “The Marines around the world that I have seen have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale and the lowest morals of any group of animals that I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!” – Eleanor Roosevelt

  My dad was a marine, and he went to his grave convinced that, as a US marine, he was incapable of making a mistake, about anything, at anytime or anywhere; That might makes right, in any and all circumstances; And that anybody in the world who disagreed with that deserved to die, preferably at his own hand.
  Just to be clear here: I am not complimenting the man.

  • [deadserfs]

    Love the Eleanor quote. She got it right.

    “Belleau Wood” has nothing to do with the ss for those that might jump to that conclusion. The Germans had storm troopers in WWI.

    • [Marja Erwin]

       (Meaning troops trained and equipped for the new offensive tactics, instead of Nazi thugs.)

  • [C W]

    “My dad was a marine, and he went to his grave convinced that, as a US marine, he was incapable of making a mistake, about anything, at anytime or anywhere;”

    Christ, thanks. Makes me feel a bit better growing up with military family and going through similar crap.

• [Cybe]

  I’m confused, should the concern be on the fact that they are either clueless or apparent nazi sympathizers, or on the fact that they are also combatants in war who are killing others who may or may not be civilians?

• [David]

  How’s this theory? These guys are Scout Snipers. That is their identity. A guy from this unit sees the flag somewhere and thinks “F**k yeah! SS, Scout Sniper!” buys it and takes it back to his unit where they all think it rocks. Did they know what the flag was and meant? Of course they did. They just didn’t care. Scout Sniper! That denial was USMC spin. There are 2 black guys in the picture, I doubt they are nazis, just some politically naive marines that thought they had a really kick ass flag.

  • [euansmith]

    Skin colour is no indication of political ideology.

• [Edward Pearse]

  Muscles
  Are
  Required
  Intelligence
  Not
  Essential

  • [gyffes]

     Old Army joke: How do you kill a marine?

       Glue some sand to a wall and tell him to hit the beach.

• [euansmith]

  Yeah! Whenever I see that flag it makes my blood boil! The history of violence! The rampant aggression! The genocide! Oh… wait a minute… you were talking about the “SS” flag… sorry… my bad…

• [sugarsails]

  Scout Snipers, if you’re 18 when you join the marines, I can believe most of these guys didn’t know it was a Nazi symbol, but someone did and they should have put an end to it’s use.

• [snagglepuss]

  I can believe that the marines in that picture are historically ignorant. 

  I can believe that they may be obtuse, insensitive or oblivious to the larger, more disturbing consequences of favorably comparing themselves to Nazi storm troopers, or to placing the US flag in a position of respect adjacent to that logo.

  I can believe that they should not be used to discredit or impugn the entire USMC.

  I can NOT believe that they coincidentally came up with the EXACT same font that was used by another notoriously prideful, ruthless and jingoistic/fetishistic military group. I’d just have to say that they’re lucky that Disney doesn’t own that logo, or they really WOULD be in deep shit.

  • [C W]

    Yeah, someone somewhere literally downloaded a National Socialist font set to produce this.

• [Daniel Smith]

  If the Marines hadn’t named the unit “scout snipers” and named them “recon snipers” or some other such non “SS” combo, these poor dumb young men would not be the subject of so much scorn. I expect young men to do dumb things, but shame on whoever named this unit, it was just asking for trouble.

  • [euansmith]

    Recon Snipers? RS? They might have found themselves being sued by Radio Shack!

• [Andrew S.]

  So from the article: does the term “adopted the flag” mean that they just found it and used it for the photo, or that someone actually made it, carried it with the unit and used it for photo ops? Groupthink on the battleground can make people do unreasonable things.

  • [C W]

    The latter.

• [Wayne Dyer]

  The stories reveal this had been used by the Scout Snipers unofficially, and against regulation since the 80′s.  This isn’t a group of a dozen or so folks who thought this up on their own, it’s reclamation and recontextualization.  Maybe they’re ideological postmodernists.

  “The SS logo has been worn by scout snipers going back to at least the 1980s, said Earl Catagnus Jr., who served as a scout sniper in Iraq and now teaches military history at Valley Forge Military Academy and College in Pennsylvania and other institutions. Catagnus never got an “SS” tattoo, he said, but he knows Marines of many races who did.”

  http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/02/marine-amos-apologizes-for-scout-sniper-nazi-ss-logo-021012/ 

  • [C W]

    “reclamation and recontextualization”

    It’s not necessarily. Someone in a Fetish club with a Nazi uniform I could trust for that much more than a uniformly White Christian military organization.

• [Mister44]

  You know this gets me thinking – if they were using the flag to mean “Scout Snipers”, with no white supremacist or Neo-Nazi intentions, we honestly need more things like this. It is time we reclaim some of the icons that the Nazis soiled. The Swastika was doing just fine for thousands of years until they adopted it. There are some art movements trying to reclaim it, restoring it to a symbol of good, rather than evil.

  • [rattypilgrim]

    Why bother? Let it go and let a new symbol evolve. The evil and destruction associated with those symbols used by Germany during WW II will be around for generations to come. That’s the power of symbolism.

    • [Mister44]

       Oh – I disagree about that. Our historical memory is pretty short. 200 years ago you would be tarred and feathered for hanging up a British flag. Now you can buy a Cooper Mini with one emblazoned on the roof. You can find CCCP and Che shirts everywhere.

      Already in places like Asia they have some Nazi themed merchandise. For them the swastikas roots in Hindu and Buddhism over shadow the Nazis, which didn’t directly affect the during WWII. 

      • [rattypilgrim]

        As you said, Asia wasn’t effected by Nazism so there is really no historical memory connected with the swastika. Not a good analogy.

  • [bardfinn]

    No. Speaking as someone who has forgotten more about Nazism than goes into most European Theater WWII history textbooks — no.

    We can’t allow racist, supremacist, nationalist psychopaths to ever re-integrate into our collective culture. Those symbols, whatever their positive qualities might be, drew the short straws in the symbological lottery. They will forever be adopted by clueless neo-Nazis and as such will forever be disinherited by anyone who has a shred of decency and compassion.

    Those runes are part of my own connection to my cultural past. They (the S runes) are supposed to represent the sun, life, skill, cleverness, being good at everything, benevolence, a spring of life and warmth and good luck. They represent (outside the Nazi adoption and connotations) that which is the mot juste of the ideals I hold most dear.

    I would love to be able to use them, to divorce them from anything remotely Nazi. It is not going to happen. They are forever — because we live in an age of enduring documentation — tainted, inverted, and perverted.

    And there is nothing anyone can do about it.

  • [blueelm]

    If you’re going to do that though then “we” don’t reclaim the symbol, the people for whom the symbol is still being used as a threat reclaim it. Unless you are them, you don’t get to decide they should just be like “hey, that was carved in my car last night but it’s all cool”

    • [Mister44]

       <– Card carrying Native American of the Pottawatomie tribe, Citizen band. My ancestors used it first.

      • [blueelm]

        Then that’s really not the same, apologies. I just really hate it when people say “reclaim” when they don’t mean reclaim. When the symbol is a part of your culture then you really are reclaiming it. But when the symbol isn’t, you’re just asking people to forget KWIM?

        Sticking it on a flag for the US Marines though sure as hell isn’t reclaiming anything. Even as a metaphor the best you get is “what Nazis did to Jews ,we will do to you!” which is just appropriation.

      • [jeligula]

        We used to play Pottawatomie basketball in high school.  Are you responsible for that vicious game? I liked it, but then I was a vicious bastard who enlisted in the Marine Corps the instant I was able.

        • [Mister44]

           I haven’t heard of it. How is it different from regular basketball? If you are from OK, KS, or a couple other states we got moved through, then it might be some sort of derogatory jab.

  • [C W]

    Except they aren’t reclaiming it for “good”. They’e continuing on the White Supremacist movement.

• [Glen]

  All the mention of swastikas and  th SS logo, wow. The Nazis stole the swastika and reversed it. I visited Indonesia in the early nineties and they consider their swastika, a religious emblem, to be good luck.  So if someone steals something of yours, makes it a representation of terror and evil, does that mean you then have a different view of your original item? Just saying that the nazis’  weren’t that creative with imagery as most would give them credit for. I would fully expect the nazi mentality is reflected in every military organization from the dawn of time, does that make the principles theirs? Just sayin’…

  • [C W]

    Uh, the reversed Swastika and SS logo are original, as far as the Nazi use. The symbol and runes existed before but THAT PARTICULAR IMPLEMENTATION is unmistakable.

  • [jeligula]

    The Nazis got most of their symbology from the Roman empire.

• [asymort]

  All this talk of outrage and contempt … meanwhile, boingboing is serving up a nice little USMC ad to me in my browser.

• [blueelm]

  Yeah, but if common vandals know the image, it’s hard to imagine none of these guys do.  Look, as was said above, seems most likely to me that these guys aren’t ignorant of it being an SS symbol, just either of the opinion that the SS was awesome, attracted to the “power” of the symbol due to it’s stigma, or they really hate Jews (except when it comes to Muslims or something).
  http://www.crownheights.info/media/4/20050907-20050907-swastikas.jpg

• [creativehumanoid]

  This comment thread is way too TL;DR for me, and way too stupid, ignorant, biased and prejudiced for my blood. I managed to make it about halfway through before I felt bile rise up in my throat.

  Here’s the thing:

  I’m a veteran.

  I’m a liberal.

  I believe that most of the truth lies somewhere between the left and the right.

  I believe the right has some extremely prejudiced, hateful and self-righteous people around.

  And many of you are proving the left has the SAME traits. A lot of you need to grow up and realize that nobody is perfect, including yourselves.

  I’d go into more detail on my feelings, but I’d get banned from commenting.

  • [BlackPanda]

    Please do go into more detail. I’m intrigued now.

    • [creativehumanoid]

       Nice try. Get me drunk first.   ; )

  • [C W]

    “I believe the right has some extremely prejudiced, hateful and self-righteous people around.

    And many of you are proving the left has the SAME traits.”I’m sorry that you feel like defending those who stand by the SS flag.

• [C W]

  What on earth has changed to BoingBoing’s demographics where people would be devils’ advocates for White Supremacists in our military? Is it the South Park Conservative New Atheist movement?

  Or maybe I’m making too much of the  same people who post crap on every internet messageboard.

• [creativehumanoid]

  By the way, for those of you so up-in-arms about the SS flag, go check out the final punishment for the ringleader of the Haditha massacre. THAT will get you up in arms.

  • [blueelm]

    Why do you assume that people “only” care about this and have never heard of anything else? Weren’t you just saying something critical about over-simplification of people? Then why are you over-simplifying? Maybe people aren’t being so like you think they are as you think they are.

• [hirumaui]

  Their high school history teachers should be found, then fired. Simple.

  • [C W]

    Oh please. Seeing as the White Supremacists recruit vets all the time, it’s no surprised that they groom Neo-Nazis to go to war for us.

• [John Smith]

  Why is it that when the other side uses snipers it’s considered underhanded and cowardly, but when we do it, it is heroic and elite?

• [BarBarSeven]

  Everyone here is yammering about “book learning” about the Nazi SS “Lightning Bolts”, but that means nothing to me. That’s because Nazi imagery is so all over the place in modern videogames (Call of Duty & Wolfenstein) that it’s inconceivable to me that someone who would become a solder would be so unexposed to pop-culture as to not even have the vaguest idea that the “SS” are the bad guys.

  Heck, has anyone here gone into a comic shop and have seen the Nazi action figures one can buy?  These Marines are full of baloney.

  • [retepslluerb]

    They are bad guys, but they are also bad-ass guys.  Like vampires, werwolves and Sith Lords. 

    • [BarBarSeven]

      Thanks for pointing that out to me: You know the “Empire” in “Star Wars” is basically just a bunch of space Nazis, right?  So there you go! Another exposure to Nazi culture in pop culture!

      • [retepslluerb]

        Is it? The Empire seems to be quite  apolitical to me, devoid of any ideology.  Just faceless guys directed by British officers in sharp uniforms.

        I think Star Wars is the epitome of apolitical use of Nazi regalia, from the militarism of the Empire to the Riefenstahl-scenes orchestrated by the rebellion. 

        The exposure by pop-culture is shallow – about the width of a texture.

        Indiana Jones fights „baddies“, in amusing fisticuffs-style, but he doesn’t break into a SS bureau to save an expert on the ark with communist  leanings who had his fingernails ripped out.

        And the games replay battles and hide-and-seek games of tag, not American or Soviet soldiers who walk through the gates of concentration camps to witness of the horror of industrial murder. 

        40 years ago, “Patterns of Force“ wasn’t shown on TV in Germany, because it was deemed to be trivialising the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust – today it should probably get a reward for looking beyond the cool uniforms. 

        • [BarBarSeven]

          Okay, you did make good points.

  • [jeligula]

    No, the official response to the photo was baloney.

• [awjt]

  Where’s Aldo Raine, when you need him?

• [Sam Blanchard]

  So what is the verdict here? 

  Is this a failure of the American and Military education system that these guys did not have any idea that this was the symbol for the SS?

  Is this a failure of America having any sensitivity to others?

  Is this a triumph in the ability of the American Military to put it’s hands over its ears and yelling NA NA NA NA NA NA NA?

• [tomrigid]

  Symbols don’t mean anything, inherently. They mean what what we read into them. What ‘SS’ means to millions of people is violent racial hatred.

  We’ve got soldiers around the world, and a picture like this puts them in danger. They’re representing the United States, and a picture like this makes us all look bad. 

  Cut off their balls and feed them to pigs. It’s the only way to be sure.

  • [jeligula]

    That makes no sense, Tom.  Charlie Co. was told that everyone  in that village near My Lai was Viet Cong.  But shame on me for bringing up a Vietnam era atrocity to prove that your solution is idiotic. The only thing for Marines to do is to follow their last order first and to rely on their conscience to tell them what is immoral and what is not.  In the heat of combat, they usually don’t bother. Why is this?  Because they are under fire, that’s why. Being trained to kill and then killing is necessarily dehumanizing.

    • [tomrigid]

      The individual marines in this picture are jarheads with a neutered critical organ. I don’t blame them for being dumb, that’s what we wanted from them. But somewhere there’s a sergeant or a lieutenant who is paid to know better, because this is some stupid, dangerous shit that can get other boys killed.

      Don’t excuse it. They’re volunteers in our military and they’ll damned well do it right, or I’ll gouge out their eyes and piss in their dead skulls.

      Figuratively speaking.

      • [C W]

        “But somewhere there’s a sergeant or a lieutenant who is paid to know better”

        Who do you think encouraged them to use the symbols and taught them the “history” of the SS?

• [John Smith]

  Ilsa, She Wolf of the USMC

• [Ceronomus]

  Considering that the US Military now routinely allows Neo-Nazis and gang members to join so that recruitment quotas can be met? I don’t buy it. If they are so ignorant and stupid, they shouldn’t be allowed to carry firearms. They should be the new USMC Nerf-gun division.

• [David Yoon]

  I noticed some comments from CNN readers. They’re really different from the readers here.

  “It is a good picture, and jews people forget about the past and look forward the future.” (pepe)

  “Look at the bottom right hand side and tell me what color that Marine is. He’s black. Wow! So Nazi like. A black Nazi, who’d have thought! People aren’t even taking in the whole picture, just the flag.” (Jerry)

  “How come everytime this happens, somebody gets pissed! Dont we have freedom of speech? I get offended allmost everyday. Then i say to myself that is what they believe in. How many times have people taken a symbol and used it for something else? what happened in the past was wrong! There are too many people jumping on bandwaggons nowadays!” (rick)

• [nox]

  All the apologists on here may want to check out this story. You can’t buy that flag without going through a nazi memorabilia store.

  • [C W]

    Right, or would have had to download Nazi fonts from some White Pride site.

• [Jimmy Tyler]

  I knew what that symbol meant when I was in eighth grade… and I was in an American History class that year! And then I learned it again in ninth grade in a World History class. 

• [jwkrk]

  To paraphrase Bogart, “of all the typefaces on all the flags in all the world they had to pick this one.”

  Why couldn’t it have been Comic Sans?

• [Marja Erwin]

  To my eye, neither of those S-runes looks too much like the SS iconography. But the flag in the photo looks way too much like SS iconography.

  The runes are more angular than modern letters, but they are mostly now known through carvings [where angular forms were easier], and judging by Germanic terms like ‘book’ and ‘boka’ they were mostly original written on the [inner?] bark of trees [which might also make angular forms easier than rounded ones, unlike papyrus or paper].

• [BarBarSeven]

  Rhinoman, so you’re saying that combat is so horrible that it can make soldiers—the cream of the crop—to completely forget who the U.S. (and world’s) number one enemy was in one of the last major wars of the 20th century?

  As someone who grew up with Vietnam vets around him in the neighborhood—who I can assure you were traumatized by combat—I can honestly say I say I never once saw any Nazi symbolism anywhere.  Can you provide any other examples of soldiers being so traumatized they revert to Nazism as a way of coping?

  Dink.

• [blueelm]

  Nazi soldiers volunteered for their country and died too. Where the hell is your sympathy and compassion? I think people should be more forgiving and compassionate about EVERYTHING.

  If the soldiers who give their life for our country aren’t fighting for values we want to live by, then what is the point in it? There’s none. They’re just machines used to kill other machines, except some of them are related to some of us.

  If you believe there is something to fight for besides resources then you believe in morality. If you don’t believe in that then you have no business acting like the people we are fighting are any less good than us.

  In other words, the loss of life is pointless without the moral component… just powerful people protecting resources and using less powerful people in order to achieve that. No glory.

  Besides, some of us aren’t allowed to volunteer in their place anyway.

• [C W]

  “This is what you people are concerned about?”

  Not exclusively, but keep ranting as if we are. It’ll do so much good.