Beijing update: New detentions, 6 US protesters missing, Tibetan protesters in Tibet reportedly shot dead.

A quick update on previous BB posts (one, two, three) about American tech-artists and activists detained for pro-Tibet protests in Beijing. A Students for a Free Tibet spokesperson tells Boing Boing:
Everyone listed here is still missing.

- James Powderly
- Brian Conley
- Jeffrey Rae
- Jeff Goldin
- Michael Liss
- Tom Grant

They were all working in Beijing in different ways, as citizen journalists and activists. My opinion at this point is they are being held longer than other detained activists because they all had much more gear - macbooks, eee pc's, HD video cameras, digital SLR cams... standard stuff in most places, but I can imagine it raises a lot of eyebrows to the authorities in China, especially when related to protests and Tibet.

We are in active touch with the US Embassy in Bejing the the US State Department... the big deadline we are just hitting 48 hours right now, so 24 hours left until the 3 day mark.

The activists who deployed the LED banner have all already been sent home, arriving in JFK right about now.

And below, word of additional, new detentions of a Tibetan-German activist and two others from the United States. Snip from SFT announcement:
Beijing – After intense surveillance by up to 50 plainclothes police, a Tibetan-German man and two pro-Tibet activists protested tonight near the Bird’s Nest stadium. The three raised their fists in the air, unfurled a Tibetan flag, and called out “Free Tibet” at approximately 12:05 am Beijing time. A fourth Tibet activist who observed the protest was detained by police at the scene. The four were taken away in a police vehicle and their whereabouts are unknown.

The four are Tibetan-German Florien Norbu Gyanatshang, 30, American Jeremy Wells, 38, American John Watterberg, 30, and Briton Mandie McKeown, 41.

“Against all odds, a Tibetan has once again raised our outlawed national flag in Beijing tonight,” said Lhadon Tethong, the Tibetan-Canadian Executive Director of Students for a Free Tibet. “This action symbolises the determination and steadfast commitment of the Tibetan people and our supporters from around the world to achieve freedom and justice for six million Tibetans living under the brutal rule of the Chinese government.”

Tibetans and Tibet supporters have defied the best efforts of the Chinese authorities to silence all voices of dissent during the Olympic Games, staging eight protests in Beijing over the past two weeks. The protests have ranged from technically-challenging banner hangs to a dramatic “die-in” at Tiananmen Square. Surveillance efforts by Chinese authorities increased dramatically over the past few days.

“The Chinese government is petrified of these peaceful acts of defiance simply because they represent the true feelings of Tibetans inside Tibet,” said Tenzin Dorjee, Deputy Director of Students for a Free Tibet. “Our protests are a reminder to the world of the tragic reality of the Chinese government’s illegitimate occupation of Tibet and the urgent need for the Chinese leadership to seek a resolution with the Tibetan people.”

Lhadon Tethong, director of Students for a Free Tibet, quoted in this New York Times article:
[Tethong] said she was more concerned with the plight of protesters in Tibet. In recent days, she said, at least three people have reportedly been killed in the city of Ganzi after protesting on the street. She said one woman, Dolma Yungzom, was shot five or six times point blank after she unfurled a banner, though Ms. Tethong provided no evidence.
Watch video updates on FT08tv.

Previously on Boing Boing blog
:
* Beijing: "Alive in Baghdad" videoblogger among US citizens detained in pro-Tibet protests
* Beijing: Five US activists detained after lighting up "Free Tibet" LED Throwies banner near Olympics site
* GRL's James Powderly detained in Beijing for planning pro-Tibet "L.A.S.E.R. Stencil" art protest

Related episodes of Boing Boing tv:
* BBtv WORLD (Tibet): Inside Lhasa
* Vlog (Xeni): Tibet report - monks forced to participate in staged videos.
* Vlog (Xeni): Tibet's uprising and the internet

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  1. ny chnc th PRC plgsts nd t f cntry ntnlsts (hmm sclsts tht r ntnlsts – whr dd hr tht bfr) cn gv ths thrd brk?

    N – f crs th Mzs cn’t.

  2. I hope they have a restore disk for that stuff.

    I can’t believe the US Government is calmly standing by while they have not just detained but disappeared our American citizens. I can’t believe any government would allow this.

    But in regards to the US’s own growing, detain first, release never policy I guess what goes around, comes around.

  3. Hy BBNNJ – h thr Mz plgst! Y knw – mst – f nt ll f th dtnd flk n Cb wr dng thngs lk chckng bllts t ppl.

    Thnk ths bnnrs r s bd s bllts? S d Mzs! Y’r n yr wy!

  4. hmmm a mass “die-in” in Tiananmen Square… I can just see how that could go wrong… oh noes, the blood’s real…

  5. MGABRYSSF> Throwing around cute phrases like “Maozi apologist” at whoever doesn’t 100% agree with you won’t hurt my feelings or anyone else’s likely.

  6. Mgabryssf – oh dear.

    True, most of the people currently in Gitmo are probably the very worst of the worst 200 or so. But the 700 something we kept there for 4+ years, then released without charge….. well, I’m not one of their peers, and nobody is showing me any evidence.

    also, re: “maozi” – are those are the native people of New Maoland? That’s next to Sino-Disney as I recall.

  7. I don’t know, he’s trying to make some reference to a Chinese apologist, trying to imply merely because I said ‘what goes around comes around’ in regards to the US’s growing ‘detain first, release never’ policy that I fully support China’s human rights stompings. Even though in my sentence right before that I said that no government should allow another to detain their people without reproach.
    I don’t know what a “maozi apologist” is but I think he might have a full supply of crazy pills.

  8. n mny cntrs wh cnsdr thmslvs dmcrtc nd cvlzd, ppl r rrstd nd hld ndfntly fr mch lss thn wht ths prvlgd stdnts hv dn.

    Ths yr, H L Ng, Frncsc Cstnd, nd Bbcr Bh dd whl n cstdy f mmgrtn nd Cstms nfrcmnt. Nt pp ws hrd frm cncrnd wll-mnng lbrls ntl ftr thy dd.

    sncrly thnk tht w shld fcs n r wn shrtcmngs bfr crtczng thrs’, nt bcs w shld mnd r wn bsnss, bt bcs w cn b th chng tht thrs wll fllw.

    1. Attention, please

      Boing Boing and BBTV have hosted numerous posts on the current situation in Tibet. Those comment threads have touched on many issues related to the current and past situation there. Here’s a list of some of the livelier discussions about this issue:

      Protest inside Tibet captured on tourists’ cameras

      Police attack peacefully protesting monks in Tibet

      Tibet: more deaths, injuries in Lhasa as crackdown grows

      Tibet: China blocks YouTube, protests spread, bloggers react

      Tibet: nearly 1,000 jailed in Lhasa, Dalai Lama offers to resign

      To do in SF – Tibet rally on April 8, Richard Gere, Desmond Tutu

      Photo of pro-Tibet protest on Golden Gate Bridge

      And of course, the two posts that are currently on BB:

      Beijing: Five US activists detained after lighting up “Free Tibet” LED Throwies banner near Olympics site

      GRL’s James Powderly detained in Beijing for planning pro-Tibet “L.A.S.E.R. Stencil” art protest

      From our Moderation Policy:

      7. Failing to notice that there are other people in the conversation. Posting a remark that’s already been made five times and answered six. Coming back and re-posting essentially the same material after a twenty-message thread has discussed your previous comment. Trying to forcibly wrench the conversation onto one of your own pet topics. Posting a stale, canned rant you’ve posted a dozen times before at other sites. Not coming back to see how others have responded to you.

      Before posting in this thread, please familiarize yourself with the territory of this ongoing discussion. Repetitive arguments, unsupported claims, cut-and-paste posturing or disingenuous concern for the plight of any and everyone except the subject of the post will be removed. Links to the same articles that have already been linked a dozen times will be removed. Links to up-to-date, reputable news sources are, naturally, most welcome.

      Thank you for making this a lively, civil and compassionate discussion about the plight of the Tibetan people.

  9. Well, we’ve got elections coming up, hopefully we can start correcting some of those shortcomings then. (Not meant as a political thread hijacking, just a response to the “we should do something about our own problems!” Well, we’re trying..)

    China kinda out-evils us in this regards, though, I think.

  10. Well, these protesters have the fact that they are foreigners on their side. Add to that the international scrutiny that comes with being the host country for the Olympics… I think (and hope) these Americans will show up just fine.

    Now the Chinese protesters on the other hand…

  11. To get major cred in protesting, you have to get arrested. This is not to denigrate the act of supporting something you believe in, but that’s how you rise in the subculture. China’s a good place to jump some levels. These folks aren’t stupid; they’re just fast-tracking. They’re surfing Maverick’s.

  12. I sincerely think that we should focus on our own shortcomings before criticizing others’,

    I can tell you mean “national shortcomings”, and I don’t believe you’re sincere. Sino-cere, however…

    As individuals, surely you are correct, but to treat the government better than we treat each other is insane, or maybe it’s just Sino-sane.

  13. (Putting on moderator hat.)

    MgabrysSF @1 & 3, first, please don’t go picking fights in comment threads. It’s one thing to reply to someone who’s making excuses for an authoritarian regime. It’s another to preemptively declare it’s happening when it isn’t yet.

    Second, don’t go around calling people Nazis who aren’t.

    Third, your comment #3, which appears to be a reply to BBNinja’s #2, doesn’t actually engage with any of BBNinja’s text. It’s like you’re carrying over an argument that started somewhere else, only I can’t find where.

  14. As others have sort of pointed out, at least in China–as a foreigner, at least–you generally have to “do something” to be detained. In the US, just being a foreigner (see many previous BB posts about this same thing) is enough to get you detained, searched, and denied access to any sort of help/counsel/whatever until the TSA, FBI, or some other acronym decide to release you.

    Honestly, I don’t really know what to think of this. My first reaction is “What did they expect?” They must have known this was going to happen. Hopefully they were a least a little prepared for it …

  15. Is a protest a protest if it only lasts one minute?

    If a protester is jailed in China and nobody is there to hear is, did he ever exist?

  16. r:”MgbrysSF @1 & 3, frst, pls dn’t g pckng fghts n cmmnt thrds”

    xcs m – bt vry sngl thrd s ldd wth PRC Mz plgsts sng vry strw mn spm tctc pssbl t dflct ttntn wy frm th tpc. Y knw wht? Tht’s nt nly brng t’s bllyng.

    s fr s M nd Nz – xcs m – ‘ll cll thm wht wnt. Thy’v gn nt flly prgrmmd rctnry ntnlst md vr snc th trch rly wnt vr lk thd. Sms prtty pt t m – srry y dn’t fl tht wy t th bvs.

    nd s fr s cmprsns t th Nzs lt’s strt wth 56 mlln dd chns cn’t b wrng – bt thn f y wnt t swp tht ndr th rg nd gv th Mzs brk pls d. Hstrcl rvsnsm s bg dl n Mz cntry.

    t’s nt sm ct ntrnt mm – t’s nt Gdwn’s lw – t’s frkng pt. Mz. Gt sd t t. Y’r gng t s lt f thm n ths thrd – nd tht’s wht th frst cmmnt ws prdctng.

    Lks lk ws nt nly pt – bt ccrt. Dn’t y ht t whn ‘m rght? GD tht mst rlly frstrt th CRP t f y!

  17. Sounds like kind of a waste of time to fly all the way to China, protest publicly for 20 seconds, get arrested and then deported.

    Surely there is a more effective way.

    1. Surely there is a more effective way.

      Than making international headlines? I’d be interested in hearing some that don’t involve murder or mayhem. Huge news – nobody hurt. Seems full of win to me.

  18. h nd hr’s n fr r prnd cntrl frk mdrtrs – rspns #3 wsn’t thrd frm nthr tpc ( dn’t gt nt thm slly bcs thy’r prdctbl nd – hr’s wrd y’ll lv – BRNG). S th rsn y dn’t s rply t smn ls s bcs – t sn’t. Nt tsd f yr hd nywy.

    ws rfrrng t hs cmprsns f gtm t th PRC. Bllts vs bnnrs. gn bvs – bt nt t y. Bt snc y’v scrmbld th psts – wh crs.

    bvsly thrds r mprtnt bcs thy’r gm chngrs n th rl wrld – r nt – nd nvr hv bn.

  19. lol…blog comment fight? Okay. I concede. You win the internets.

    At any rate, you would think they might’ve planned these protests a little better, especially with all that expensive equipment they shouldn’t have been carrying computers and cameras on them as it was obvious they’d be arrested.

    They should have had people who they left their stuff with, and then had their pictures takers separate also.

  20. @#2 “I can’t believe the US Government is calmly standing by while they have not just detained but disappeared our American citizens. I can’t believe any government would allow this.”

    I don’t think the US government should get in the habit of running to the rescue every time an American traveler willfully breaks the law in a foreign country. People raised the same kind of concerns when Michael Faye was about to be caned in Singapore.

    Sadly, when the Olympics come to a close in a few days most people will go back to their daily routines and forget about any news item involving China. After the global spotlight disappears, it will leave the protesters in a tight spot. The publicity of this case will be reduced to a handful of blogs and the occasional coffee house fund-raiser concert. Worst of all, their actions will have done nothing to help the people of Tibet.

    1. Jupiter12,

      You’ve compared a peaceful political protest to an act of purposeless, adolescent vandalism. Is that an accurate representation of your analytical abilities or was it on purpose?

    2. Also, anyone who expects the US embassy to come to their rescue, ever, anywhere, for any reason — is in for a big, ugly surprise. That happens in the movies. In real life, not so much.

  21. re:”Surely there is a more effective way.”

    Actually there probably is. Now for an effective internet experiment. 20 seconds of “protest” with insane travel dollars spent for a single blog photo seems – kinda wasteful (not to mention dangerous).

    But with the magic of Photoshop – why don’t have to. Create as many interesting and varied Photoshop protests of people and banners assembled around Olympic venues as possible and put tem on your blog. Whether you say it’s real or not – who cares – hopefully some Maozi will report it to the authorities and they can have cops chasing ghosts in no time (a long-shot fantasy – but hey let the moron dream!)

    It’s a silly idea – but why the hell not?

  22. GOD that must really frustrate the CRAP out of you!

    Excellent projection! Your whole comment, the jumping from point to point, clearly WE (whoever “we” are to you) are the frustrated ones. Clearly.

  23. “Wh r y tlkng t” sks th mdrtrs wh r sly cnfsd by th wrd “w” nd hp t pnly drd ths wh spk n prnns t chv sm sns f 7th grd sprrty cmplx rthr thn ntc tht thy rpld t th prsn wh thy wndr wh thy’r tlkng t – mkng th whl xrcs – wll – lk smthng t f 7th grd.

    rny s my fvrt nn.

  24. Which would be irony, if I were a moderator.

    I’m not, I’m just some schmoe who is not impressed with your semantic dance.

  25. Please stop using Maozi. It is a completely incoherent and meaningless jumble.

    First, the current Chinese government is not Maoists any more than it is Stalinist or many other -ists. It is debatable if it is even communist in the traditional sense.

    Second, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Nazism. Nothing. Large body counts have been created by any number of governments while having nothing to do with Nazi ideologies.

    Besides, a Nazi Maoist is a contradiction in terms. These words already have meanings. Significant ones that you would be well served by reserving before using them further in conversation.

    Using these terms as your own personal shorthand for a corrupt and violent dictatorship does nothing but cheapen valuable vocabulary. There are many excellent words already in existence to describe these things. Please take the time to find the appropriate ones.

  26. Personally I have always taken great care to scrupulously observe the Laws of any country which I have been privileged to be allowed to enter, primarily in my case the USA.
    These people/protesters should have no greater nor lesser rights than any other foreign national who chooses to violate the Laws of the country to which she has been admitted.
    Civil disobedience can have a staggering price in a place where you are a foreigner, with a foreigner’s rights.
    Funny how they depend on the Power of a State, now, to rescue them from the consequences of protesting another State’s actions.
    China occupies Tibet, the USA occupies….

  27. re:”it is clear you are not here for any good reason.”

    “Not coming back to see how others have responded to you.” – Moderation Policy.

    You’re right I have no reason to be here. Mmm tsty nn.

  28. I would take a deep breath people. No one is going to “disappear”. Every foreigner is going be given a stern talking to, spend a night or two in jail probably set up specially for housing foreigners during the Olympics before tossing them out of country, and have their asses booted from the country. They will not get beaten or shot. If they vanish for real, you can expect the US start tossing some elbows. A night or two of detention isn’t worth the effort.

    This is going to follow a boring and predictable course. China isn’t stupid enough to vanish a few hippies and draw attention to the cause when they can just deport them and get the same results with less pain. It is one thing to kill dissident leaders within the nation. It scares people and the ranks don’t always replenish. Killing a few American college students doesn’t thin the ranks any and forces the US government to get pissed and get involved.

    So, hurry for the futile gesture, enjoy your predictable stay in jail, I hope you were smart enough to empty your wallets and dump your phones/cameras before being arrested, and I hope when you get back to the US you get laid by some free loving hippie chicks (at least then you will have accomplished something after having spent so much money).

  29. In reading the comments from the recent Tibet protest posts, I see a lot of ignorance for how things work in China.

    Here’s a good article on how protestors are dealt with in China: http://bit.ly/1s8WR

    “Two elderly Chinese women have been sentenced to a year of “re-education through labor” after they repeatedly sought a permit to demonstrate in one of the official Olympic protest areas, according to family members and human rights advocates.”

    “At least a half dozen people have been detained by the authorities after they responded to a government announcement late last month designating venues in three city parks as “protest zones” during the Olympics. So far, no demonstrations have taken place.”

    So what these Wester protestors are doing is shining a light on China’s attempt to “make themselves over” with the Olympics.

    You guys know about the “One World, One Dream” campaign that Beijing is pumping out, right?
    http://is.gd/1MGZ

    “One World One Dream” fully reflects the essence and the universal values of the Olympic spirit — Unity, Friendship, Progress, Harmony, Participation and Dream.”

    “It expresses the common wishes of people all over the world, inspired by the Olympic ideals, to strive for a bright future of Mankind. In spite of the differences in colors, languages and races, we share the charm and joy of the Olympic Games, and together we seek for the ideal of Mankind for peace. We belong to the same world and we share the same aspirations and dreams.”

  30. futile? Hardly. Futile is laying back and letting the government of China do whatever without comment.

  31. Protest inside Tibet captured on tourists’ cameras

    Police attack peacefully protesting monks in Tibet

    Tibet: more deaths, injuries in Lhasa as crackdown grows

    Tibet: China blocks YouTube, protests spread, bloggers react

    Tibet: nearly 1,000 jailed in Lhasa, Dalai Lama offers to resign

    To do in SF – Tibet rally on April 8, Richard Gere, Desmond Tutu

    Photo of pro-Tibet protest on Golden Gate Bridge

    And of course, the two posts that are currently on BB:

    Beijing: Five US activists detained after lighting up “Free Tibet” LED Throwies banner near Olympics site

    GRL’s James Powderly detained in Beijing for planning pro-Tibet “L.A.S.E.R. Stencil” art protest

    All these stories and all this concern about a relatively peaceful uprising by a bunch of Theocrats and nothing on Darfur. Sucks to be an African, I guess.

  32. Is that what it takes to get coverage, MDHATTER?

    That’s what it takes to merit counter-coverage, yes.

  33. moon, in your original context it appeared to be an negative appellation directed at either the Boingers or the other commenters or maybe even me.

    I’m not so sensitive but I approve of appellation moderation.

  34. maybe because it’s an irresponsible and childishly facile dismissal of an issue that merits better? Darfur matters? The fact you find time to throw rocks thorough windows here makes me doubt it matters much to you.

  35. Moon,

    Read my comment at #15. Crypto-“disingenuous concern for the plight of any and everyone except the subject of the post” is still “disingenuous concern for the plight of any and everyone except the subject of the post.”

  36. Stating that 20 posts on the cause of the month, Tibet, and none on Darfur means that I don’t care about Darfur?

    Huh. Logic wasn’t one of your top courses, was it?

  37. So, my saying that this is the cause of the month is enough to get disemvowelled, but Takuan saying that he “dismisses me” and other nonsense in another Tibet post doesn’t merit anything. I understand you have an agenda here and denial of free speech only is an issue if you are Tibetan, but seriously.

    1. Moon,

      You’re normally a good commenter, but you blow a nutty whenever anyone criticizes China. You have a Capital A Agenda. You know the rules.

  38. How about this comment from Takuan: go away “mgrsff-whatever”, it is clear you are not here for any good reason.

    Why isn’t that disemvowelled? That’s a direct on someone for no purpose.

  39. goodbye, moon.

    Why isn’t that disemvowelled?

    Who is this guy that he can dictate terms to others? If he is a moderator, it should state so. If not, his little attacks should be disemvowelled, at least.

  40. I agree with the ‘disappearees’ in their attempts to bring the heinous acts of the Chinese government -with regards to Tibet- to light. However, I don’t agree with their reckless disregard for their own safety in their attempts to do so in a place where they can -and probably will be- brutally punished. The U.S. State Department will probably not become involved in this if these people are ‘detained’ for any length of time. The USSD has in the past turned a blind eye towards those that willfully violate the laws of other countries and this is no exception. The USSD are essentially a politically motivated branch of the U.S. government and will not seek to intervene in such a politically volatile situation.

  41. My take on bb is this site is just coming into its own; where it will lead is anyone’s guess. Because shit like this is not only going to continue, but increase in frequency, most of the serious comments seem to be searching for a way to solve the problems directly affecting our liberties. People are relatively simple and usually quite harmless, so naturally we all take offense at being treated at best like children and at worst like terrorists. How we respond is the question. Personally, I have a great deal of respect for anyone willing to do what these protesters have done. I have no respect for anyone who likes to believe that because one country is really bad, the actions of other countries are then OK by comparison, therefore immune from criticism. The beliefs and opinions of the writers of this site are clearly progressive and liberal. If your beliefs and opinions are substantially opposed to those of the writers and the readers they attract, don’t let the door hit you in the ass.

  42. Who is this guy that he can dictate terms to others?

    I recommend a re-reading of your own comments (as best you can manage in their current state) and a period of self reflection.

    Feel free to share news on the topic at hand.

  43. You’re normally a good commenter, but you blow a nutty whenever anyone criticizes China. You have a Capital A Agenda. You know the rules.

    I think you have a Capital A agenda about Tibet. Hence, the multitude of “Tibet is being reamed” posts.

  44. Personally I’d be pissed if the Italian Senate decided they got to choose the next pope.

    But I’m more pissed that several American monkeywrenchers are being held without contact in China.

  45. “If you really want Tibet and Tibetans as well as the other minorities to enjoy the fruits of modern society, recognize the best solution.”

    the best solution….. where have I heard that?

    Did Godwin say that?

  46. MgabrysSF @22, I’m not responding to the side of the issue you’re on, but to your tone. From your very first post on this thread, you’ve been asking for people to fight with you. That’s not the sort of conversation we encourage here. You’re so angry about the topic that I can barely even figure out what you’re trying to say.

    Your comparison of the PRC to the Nazis is sophomoric. Yeah, they killed a lot of people. If that “56 million” figure is accurate, they killed more than four times as many people as the Nazis did. Comparing them to the Nazis actually understates the magnitude of their crime. But regardless of the numerical differences, the Chinese Communist government was structurally different from the Nazi German government. The ways in which they caused those millions of deaths were different, and claiming that they’re the same obscures the details of history.

    Furthermore, “Maozi”, the word you’re using to make the comparison, seems to already be in use. A quick Google search shows it already used in a variety of places. I think it may be a reasonably common Chinese name.

    Finally don’t go telling a moderator to “get used to” seeing a lot of some word or phrase on a thread.

  47. you said:

    “As far as the Free Tibet movement, they do not even have reasonable demands, which can be accommodated by the Chinese government. This is because they have no substantive policy or plan to negotiate with. It’s like going to a bank and trying to get a loan for a business without a proper business plan. You will get rejected.”

    they have long said:

    http://www.tibet.com/future.html

  48. I must say, I am impressed by all those passionate, intelligent-sounding posts that manage to make not the least lick of sense. mgabrysSF should get a job as writer for a politician :D

    Also:
    “I think you have a Capital A agenda about Tibet. Hence, the multitude of “Tibet is being reamed” posts.”

    Heaven forbid anyone support Tibet. Next thing you know people will be wanting to save the environment or help abused children. Just outrageous!

  49. I believe that Powderly and others protesting for Tibet in China are giving up their freedom for a righteous cause.

    I hope they are released soon and without harm.

  50. we have a duty to do no evil. We have a duty to speak up when evil is being done. These people are doing what they should do. We should do what we should do.

  51. #61, I would not worry that they will be “brutally punished”. They won’t be. The same thing that has happened to all the foreign protesters during the Olympics will happen to these ones. They get held for a day or two, and then get deported without a scratch on their heads.

    I am not saying that China is right, but give them a LITTLE credit. They are not complete morons hell bent on evil for the sake of being evil. What does China get out of torturing some American college kids? Shitty press and everyone focusing on how China tortures dumb college kids. What happens if they just toss them out of the country? Nothing other than some light coverage how the Chinese politely rounded up some protesters and escorted them kindly to the curb.

    People disappear in China for a reason, not because the government is a bad Lord of the Rings villain that does bad things just to be bad. Disappearing native protesters far outside of Beijing? Not the best way to go about it in my opinion, but it is effective in instilling fear and disrupting organizations. Making American college kids disappear or beating them out? A perfect way to call attention to a cause that China really doesn’t want to call any attention to.

    All these kids will be fine. They probably are more likely to get knocked around by American cops who don’t have the entire world watching than Chinese cops who are likely to “disappear” themselves if they cause a scene roughing up some foreign kids.

  52. What would happen if a pile of us John Foreigners flew to the USA during an olympics you were hosting, with the expressed intent of BREAKING THE LAW OF THE LAND and staging a protest , say, of your occupation of Iraq ?.

    Would we be arrested?.

    I think we would.

  53. It can’t be a just law if applying to stage a legal protest gets a 78-year old woman sentenced to ‘reeducation through labor’ if she dares to pipe up again.

    Unjust laws should get broken, repeatedly and calmly.

    It’s really no more complicated than that.

  54. @#78 of course we would.
    Anti-Bush protesters were detained on Paraguay, Brazil and Argentina last year when Bush was scheduled to arrive in every country at the request of the local US embassies, for supposed background checks.

    These has been said in almost all the other posts, these protests are ILLEGAL in China, no gray area about it. China considers this issue National Security, hence all public demonstrations are banned, and illegal.

    If the Games were not on, and the eyes of the world on China I’ll bet the outcome of these protests would be different, with more missing people than these short list.

    Consider the difference:
    Pro-Tibet protest by Americans in Beijing – ppl deported
    Pro-Tibet protest by Tibetans in Tibet (ie far from the public eye) protesters shot.

  55. n n hnd, lt f th flmng gng n hr s rlly rrttng. n th thr hnd, ‘m gld thr s -sm- dbt hr, s ppsd t th sl “t’s trndy t ht Chn bcs thy’r nt dmcrcy” bndwgn.

    Th stry hr s tht bnch f ppl wnt t nthr cntry wth th ntntn f sptng mr mndlss rhtrc nd brkng th lws f th cntry. nd thy gt rrstd fr t.

    nd th Gdwn nvctn? Clssy. thnk mr ntns shld b jdgd n wht prr rgms dd n th pst. Pckng rndm xmpl: cn sy tht hlf f mrc spprtd slvry n 1861. t’s stpd, dmb ssrtn t mk, bt hy, nyn wh dsgrs wth m s n plgst sng strw-mn tctcs!

  56. No it’s the neo-nazi tactics they’re using now – against anyone who spouts a non-state mandated opinion anywhere and everywhere. Reactionary facism in pure and simple form. Now that’s classy!

    Maozi classy!

    And why should we protest and make coments when “we’ve” done so many bad things in the past and present? Because – unlike the Maozis – we CAN. And you know what? I think I will – because I CAN – and I WILL.

    Enjoy Maozis!

  57. nt-mrcn prtsts by rqs n rq … rslt:1000000 dd. tht’s cvlns, mnd y n n cnts dd rq sldrs…….
    Sns hv n rght whtsvr t prtst Chn’s ccptn f Tbt nlss !/ Thy gt th F. t f rq nd fghnstn; ND 2/Thy hv bn skd t s prtst by th Dl Lm, th lgtmt ldr f th Tbtn ppl…. th Dl lm hs hd ncrsng prblms wth Tbtns wh wld s mr vlnt mns f rsstnc (spprtd by th C?).
    nlk Sns th Tbtns wll hv t lv chk by jwl wth th Hn fr sm tm…nlss th Sns r dvctng thnc clnsng…whch wld nt srprs m cnsdrng S sltns n Ygslv nd rq.
    thrws ths prtsts lk lk C spnsrd ctn drng th . t mk C. lk bd, n ld spk ply. vn f t’s nt spks bhnd t. Tbt wll g ff th S md rdr ftrwrd. Jst lk rq lrdy hs…rplcd by Drfr!
    n rltd (ff-)tpc: Hy hw d y gys lk Npl’s nw dmcrtclly lctd Mst ldr? Th Sns spprtd th Ryls RC….wth wpns nd mltry ssstnc…nt mch rprtng n th S bt tht, rlly hv t lk fr t.

  58. @73

    Independence and statehood of Tibet is a misguided goal. Dalai Lama himself has argued for reform, not statehood.

    First of all, Tibet is a landlocked country, the only safe trade avenues are through the Chinese mainland. For better or for worse, worse in most cases, Tibet is dependent on China for economic aid.

    Second, most of the resources and development power are in the hands of Han immigrants. If Tibet becomes dependent tomorrow, We will have massacres in our hands not unlike anti-Chinese riots in Southeast Asia.

    The most likely scenario that serves the Tibetan people’s interests is autonomy and economic reform that empowers instead of disenfranchises Tibetans.

  59. Neko And the Godwin invocation? Classy.

    yeah, the post that inspired it lasted a whole 45 seconds before being yanked. It was actually a classy response.

  60. Canuck – do you really mean to say that the US killed civilians in Iraq for protesting?

    I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, in fact you have a strong point there, just not the point you were reaching for.

    I’m equally as sure that most of the Iraqi’s were killed by other Iraqi’s as I am sure it is ultimately our fault (US policy), but I’m not quite willing to say the US directly killed 100,000 civilians (with US guns).

    Shah – you speak of Tibet and China as different nations. I don’t think you have convinced even yourself of what you write.

  61. ndd thy dd – lv fr t spprss prtsts – wthn th frst thr hndrd dys f th ccptn… dn’t kp rchvs, ‘m n jrnlst…
    Th S rmy stgd fll-scl mltry sslt n th Cty f Flljh…whch hd n rmy r mltry nstlltns thr t th tm…n cvlns…’v hrd x-S rmy gys sy tht th cvlns (Bsh, Rmsfld, t l) wh rdrd ths ctn “dd nt rlz wht thy hd rdrd”…nd tht nc thy dd t ws hltd…hrrbl thng…wrs thn nythng Chn r Rss hs dn fr dcds…
    rq ws ntn t PC whn th S nvdd….hw mny Tbtn cts hv th Chns ttckd wth thr rmy n th pst svn yrs? Hw bt Rss? Hw bt th Plstnns? (Rmmbr Jnn? N?)

  62. Tibet and China separate nations? In which sense of the word “nation”?
    Are the Navajo and the US separate nations? The Mohawks and the US?
    Nations my subsist well within larger nations, it’s called a federation…

  63. Canuck Indeed they did – live fire to suppress protests

    I see your point, but you’re comparing protests in a war zone to protests during a celebration of human potential?

    Yeah, I agree Fallujah sucked, but again, the comparison is not strong there. Maybe if you were to reverse the sides and compare the US occupation of Iraq to the Chinese occupation of Tibet the Chinese would come out looking better… then again, I’m not certain the Tibetans strung burned Chinese corpses off the bridges into town.

    I’ll stop there, it’s too easy to prove that oranges contain more vitamin C than apples.

  64. Th S crtd th wr zn, thgh. Cllctv pnshmnt s hns wr crm, t….rmmbr Ldc…
    Ths r Sns prtstng, nt Tbtns.
    nd Xnh hs bttr rprtng frm rq thn ny S tft.
    Bh. n mpr jls f th thr…lk chldrn.
    Th mrcns r rspnsbl fr fr grtr bldshd f frgnrs thn th Chns r…th Chns hv nt yt cght p wth th crng f Vtnm, nvr mnd rq..f crs Vtnm s ncnt hstry fr Sns…nlk th Vtnms, wth th gnt rng ffcts nd nxpldd rdnnc plgng th psnt frmrs f th Mkng. xcptnlly grcfl f thm t frgv th S…
    N mttr whch “sd” t’s “Pt, mt kttl”.
    Ths md trg vr th trtmnt f prtstrs, t’s cld wr spk/prpgnd tctc, gnrtng mss md trg vr th slghtst mlfsnc by yr rvl, nsrng mss md slnc s t trcts by bght-nd-pd-fr “lls”…. sy gn, Bh.
    n ld trck sd by yr Mstrs (whthr m. r Chn.) t dstrct y frm ddrssng ths trgs y ctlly hv sm chnc thgh smll f prvntng r stppng…tht s, yr wn pltcns’.
    Flyppr, ths prtsts r. Bttr nt t stck rnd, ths tpc nds wth mr pwr fr yr pltcns t “prtct” y frm th “thrt”, Chns ths tm, gss.
    Tht rmnds m . Whn wll Bsh rdr th ghrs n Gtm rlsd? ‘m stll mprssd h cn rdr thm hld…

  65. Back to the point: Protesting the Chinese human rights violations might not be smart, in China. Regardless of what, or who, runs their government they don’t exactly have a system that cares about people- especially when those people are criticizing the regime. Protesting in China during the Olympics… Somehow that seems way more about publicity for the protesters, than anything else. Cynical? Maybe; but it got them a mention here, how many other places?

    I doubt that China will kill them, or even hurt them. I think, as has been said, that China will let them go; but I do think China should kill them. To be honest, I don’t care what happens to them; but death for stupidity- even if the stupidity was “just” or “righteous” or “noble”- seems perfectly natural. Why go to the place where anyone who bothers to look, and if you spend enough money to go I’m going to assume you looked, knows they do bad things to protesters (like detain them without contact)? Especially, when there are perfectly legitimate things that can be done “at home”: don’t buy chinese products, educate others, lobby your government for trade sanctions until human rights violations cease, and any number of other things.

    I think most people would agree that if Paris Hilton went bankrupt because of her stupidity (faux as it may be), spending habits, and what-have-you; she’d be getting what was coming to her. Yet, how is that different from someone going to CHINA to protest, and getting detained without contact?

  66. Nations long pre-date the system of sovereign nations which now obtains.
    In the sense of modern nation-states, Tibet is a part of China, just like Quebec and Canada, or Kurdistan and Iraq, or the Navajo and the USA…but in the sense of ethnic nationality, the State arrangements are irrelevant. Tibetans are and always will be different than the Han Chinese, just as Quebec and the Quenbecois will always differ from the rest of Canada, and as the Navajo will always be different from the Americans…do not be mistaken, these nations can and do change over time…look at the Angles and the Saxons, for instance.
    We must bridge the gaps between us, not dig them deeper.
    One dream, one world.
    It is wrong in every case to use violence to impose social structures…or to change the settled order. The problem is that it has often been effective, such violence….
    It is at this point that Christianity has some useful things to say about violence…good on ethics, but my advice is not to trust their metaphysics.

  67. Oh Ugly Canuck, your “you’re nation is no better” canard doesn’t fly the way you think it does.

    I want the US Gov’t officials held responsible.

    I want the Chinese Gov’t officials held responsible.

    Having voted for, and seen elected, representation to the US Senate and House for my district that I know agree with me – so having done that duty I am now equally empowered to affect both sides at this point.

    I say both sides deserve much criticism. Do you say that?

    Do I need to both criticize AND fix my nation before I can even see what China is doing? Have I jumped through the hoop of saying “US is bad” that you need to maybe say the same about what China is up to?

    Here’s one contrast between Iraq and Tibet: America isn’t trying to move millions of Americans into Iraq to live there from now on.

    We also have not told the Iraqi’s who their next spiritual leader will be.

    But hey, if all American’s should not be listened to because of what our gov’t did in Iraq, then why would you even bother engaging an American in conversation?

  68. Ugly Canuck, speaking in science fiction terms, I see the future of humanity where the old cultures just all blend into one big happy transhuman collective. We will absorb them and add their uniqueness to our own.

    1. We will absorb them and add their uniqueness to our own.

      You think that you will absorb them? Math not your subject?

  69. For some reason I recall listening to a radio program about the, then nine, planets. And at the end of the show which had spotlighted each planet, the host asked his guest, who sounded like a dope-smoking Canadian, which was his favorite planet. There was a long pause and finally the Canadian said: Well, Todd, I’d have to say my favorite planet…is Earth.

  70. Tibetans are and always will be different than the Han Chinese,

    Though their spiritual leaders are now chosen for them, just like in canada, right?

    It is wrong in every case to use violence to impose social structures…

    It is wrong to equate speech with violence.

  71. No no, of course you should criticize them…but don’t go to China’s first-ever Olympic Games to do so. (Strange that those who so savagely attacked China in WW 2 got their Olympics considerably sooner…) The protesters showed a lack of timing and manners, and IMHO have harmed the interests of Tibetans vis-a-vis the Han. I’m not Chinese or American or Tibetan, got no dog in this fight, but surprised that the US seems to have a dog lately in every single fight everywhere.
    I’ve yet to see that this protest was in any way supported or suggested by the Dalai Lama. If such was the case then these Protesters are AOK as to both message and style. If not then IMHO they are kibbitzers, and could well be making things worse for those they care about…just like Jake Gittes…
    mrly bsrv tht th mrcns prtstng n Bjng s t Chns ctns wld d bttr t mr ffctvly prtst th vlnc thr wn cntry hs nlshd brd, f thy wsh s nlkrs t sd wth thm s t th pprprtnss r ffccty f thr prtsts gnst Chns Stt crlty…tht s, t tk thm srsly.

  72. Hate speech is violence, of an emotional kind.
    The Tibetans will subsist as a Nation regardless of their current superstitions so long as they have a separate language with its attendant culture. I’m no friend of Monkish Rule but Quebec’s spiritual leaders have always been appointed in Rome…
    I can see why the Chinese are pissed, if you Americans are gonna start talking about Quebec like this….

  73. lwys ssctd lbrl wth bng nfrmd nd wlcmng crtcsm. n f my fvrt prts f bng ssctd wth lbrlsm s th d tht w cn ll tlk. Prr t th Bsh r hd sm ld schl Rgn fns tht hld vry pn lvly dbt, ths ppl wr mr pn t crtcsm thn sy FtsNl wh skd ppl t nt lt th dr ht thm n th ss n th wy t. hd mr rspct t ths Rgnts thn d ny lbrl tht dsn’t wnt t hr nythng tsd thr dctrn. t sms sm ppl hv bcm s dgmtc s thr cntrprts n th rght. hnstly fl lk whn dl wth lbrls tht dn’t wnt t qstn thr dlgs, thy r n pr wth ny xtrm vnglcl rght wng ntjb.

    n wkpd t sys ndr lbrlsm:
    “Dffrnt frms f lbrlsm my prps vry dffrnt plcs, bt thy r gnrlly ntd by thr spprt fr nmbr f prncpls, ncldng xtnsv frdm f thght nd spch,”
    nc y strt shttng ppl t f th dbt y r n lngr lbrl. Y bcm n thrtrn mdrtr f spc. f, s y clm, Bng Bng s lbrl plc, thy wll llw cmmnts tht y dsgr wth.
    Nzsm hs lst ts mnng t ths pnt. t hs bn c-ptd by prly dctd pblc tht hs bn tght tht nzsm nd vl r synnyms. t ds nt dscrb pltcl systm t jst dscrbs n “vl” gvrnmnt.

  74. “but don’t go to China’s first-ever Olympic Games to do so” Why not? The games deserve no respect,if anything they exemplify the worst of human social politics and hypocrisy. Up against an utterly ruthless opponent like the Chinese government, the Tibetans should pass on using the best opportunity to make public their suffering?

    You most certain DO have a dog in this fight. Or do you feel your own rights are ultimately unimportant? If Canada were next to China instead of a comfortable half planet away,what would you feel then? Did that rusty freighter of economic refugees sent back by Canada worry you at all?

  75. Wht wrrd m ws tht thy gt snt bck, y Htn-lvn’ Ynk…
    t wld ppr tht w mst lrn t dsgr s t th vl f th lympc gms.
    s t “ttr rthlssnss” f y’r n mrcn, wll, lk wh’s tlkn’…
    fl cnsdrbly lss thrtnd by th Chns gvrnmnt thn by gn-ttn’ Ynks nd thr gngstr-wnnb lcl mttrs, tht’s fr sr.

  76. i’m putting together a healthy compromise for all parties involved in the tibetan conflict so the tibetans can be happy as well as the chinese. it’s a proactive action plan that illustrates how we can gently erase the tibetans from international consciousness.

    concessions for tibet:

    1. tibetans receive new and improved anthrax laced monk robes courtesy of the Maozis

    2. tibetans are given opium and taught how to make crystal meth to help them brave the harsh tibetan climes

    3. chinese gov’t will courteously dip into federal funds to hire afghani and russian mercenaries to help cull tibetan population in case they overpopulate and threaten their *own* survival [also] as a cautionary measure against tibetans that might want to sexually assault chinese women. 1 tibetan scalp = 1 barbie doll or mcdonalds happi meal

    4. remaining tibetans will be given generous concessions such as crowded, squalid living conditions in blighted areas, these blighted areas will be near areas where multinationals have offered naive chinese villagers sums of money to unload their industrial waste, giving tibetan children free access to all sorts of “knowledge-creating-“science”-chemicals” in place of actual schools

    5. the tibetans will still be sovereign, but sovereignty will be limited to the damp alley between this mall and that housing estate. oh but in the damp alley they can do their rain dances and have their weird festivals.

    concessions for china:

    1. china will be given free access to all of tibet’s natural resources and the militarily strategic importance of tibet’s mountainous buffer against europe and western strategic military imperatives. this will be all done under a banner of a quasi-religious-high-sounding nomenclature so it will sound good in future textbooks. our “free tibet” committee couldn’t come up with anything more majestic than “manifest destiny”

    *dig on shah and dig on ugly canuck. although dig on them even if they don’t want to be associated with my post. its offensive. i’m posting it because i wanted to say that focusing on the home front is important before CRUISading all over the world for fashionable causes. dom-po b4 fo-po. and that goes for individuals and gubbys.

    tibet is related to the beef i have about the chronic american-liberal-save-the-world-ism exemplified by western aid in africa, expressed by femi kuti (fela’s son),

    [paraphrase:] “you want to help africa? stop sending us money and singing songs about it (referring directly to that shades-wearing boob, Bono)… trade with us.” [this is an aside, but call the chinese neo-colonial exploiters of africa, they’re doing something africa leaders had wished the western world had done for decades, and this is develop and invest with the intent ofa future partnership. give a man a fish/teach a man to fish.]

    or free trade coffee that makes your espresso a little less bitter, and all the bullshit we do to sally struthers our first world guilt away, or to aggrandize ourselves at the cost of actually DOING anything with real importance, or consequence, not symbolic lip service.

    this is in no way directed to the actual TIBETANS that are protesting. if they were standing here while i posted this i’d still have the ability to honestly say “i hope china goes tits up! tibet fuck yeah!” they couldn’t possibly harbor a modicum of pretense as to why they’re protesting.

    tibet be their ‘hood. i’m a supporter of all revolutions everywhere- everywhere and anywhere the human spirit goes “no, uh-uh, not me”. but when a cause gets co-opted by a sorry bunch of loud-mouthed rabble rousers with very short memories of their own bloody pasts i can’t help but feel frustrated. dom-po first. sorry how is there anyway around that? there are enough goddamn causes.

    i’m not wishing to silence discourse on human freedom, human rights, oppression, or how bad the chinese government can be. and what i’ve achieved right now is a complete ad hom 2 quoqe fallacy, yes, but i’ll say it was all a flashy attempt to get to the crux of the fact that there are a enough shitty situations in your backyard that require your immediate attention and action right there right now.

    check back in 15 years, when the rape of tibetan culture is complete, all the whales are dead, the last green patch of earth is paved over for a mcdonalds, after whitey has won the clash of civilizations aka the race war, the entrails of the last pope is wrapped around the throat of the last king, and hippies will still have some stupid cause to make the rest of us fat greasy americans feel bad. i say… fuck em.

    moreover, fuck tibet protestors.

    if you really want to make a difference, whittle down your ikea furniture into AK47 stocks, melt down your fixed gears to make bullets, eat ants and nuts for two decades, start a resistance movement and cap on some chinese. because realistically speaking, with the whole world getting their shiny-shinyz manufactured in china, who the fuck is going to exert pressure on them? angola? come on. what’s all this bullshit blogging and whinging going to accomplish? cap on some fools. that always works.

    [author does not openly espouse violence outside the context of funny-ha-ha-ness unless reader feels some kind of tyranny is absolutely tyrannifying and all peaceful forms of protest have been thusly ineffective]

    i’m on sabbatical right now so i can afford to drink and write long posts like this but lemme recap: there are enough shitty situations in all our own backyards. all countries at some point have been guilty of the same things we’re accusing each other of, hum rites abuz, gennycide etc. dom-po b4 fo-po and stop romanticizing the world’s problems by co-opting them so hippie chicks will touch your balls [hahah well put rindan] because to a lot of us native sons, it just seems insincere.

    that’s my steez. i’m out

  77. if the story of the Tibetan nun shot down in a spray of bullets for shouting a slogan is confirmed, do you approve?

  78. I guess that subtlety of policy, while being more useful in bringing about real change, runs the risk of being misunderstood by those not engaged directly and the even more likely risk of being mis-characterized by those who may have an interest in the matters under consideration.
    Still, if the Dalai Lama blesses these guys ( I take the Lama as being the legitimate head of the Tibetan Oppos. tho I have no direct knowledge ) then I repeat both style and message are ok IMO.
    If not so blessed message is ok but not manner IMO.
    Goading China into bloody crackdown in Tibet = win for US, loss for everyone else.[ Cf. Afghanistan and Mr. Brezinzzski(sp), in 1978-1980].
    Though apparently ignored by the Media except when US hosts games, the principle that the games ought not be political beyond simple fact of athletes being from a spec. country still obtains as an Ideal.

  79. I find myself under a raging Moon.
    As to dompo b4 forpo:
    In the USA the fact that foreign policy has become the fulcrum for the levers of public debate during federal elections is a great tragedy IMO and is of fairly recent vintage IIRC…a post-WW 2 thing, by and large. Apparently this serves the interests of the military-industrial(and now -media) complex…otherwise IMO it would not be so.
    But I am not a student of Am. history. Is there anything like McCain – Obama pre-FDR? I mean where foreign policy diffs were the main diff in platforms in the Fed election?

  80. Yy mr “dsmvwlng” – jst lk th cltrl rvltn, Bng Bng shws t’s lckstp lbrl rctnry cnsrng styl.

    nd t nly tk 80% f my mssgs t b nkd t prv t.

    My wrk s dn. Cntn n wth yr “pn dscssn”

    *Chrtl*

    Grp thnk s n gly thng – fr ll sds. S mch fr rsng bv t, dwn y g!

    Hr’s my fv bt frm “Tlk Rd” whch pts ths st n cntxt:

    “Brry Chmpln:

    Mrvls tchnlgy
    s t r dspsl.
    nstd f rchng p t nw hghts,
    w’r gnn s hw fr dwn w cn g.
    Hw dp nt th mck
    w cn mmrs rslvs.
    Wht d y wnn
    tlk bt, hmm?

    Bsbll scrs?

    Yr pt?

    rgsms?

    Y’r pthtc.
    dsps ch
    nd vry n f y.
    Y gt nthng,
    bsltly nthng.
    N brns,

    n pwr,

    n ftr.

    N hp.

    N Gd.”

    1. mgabrysSF,

      Take a few days to calm yourself. You may contact Teresa to have your account reinstated.

  81. lt’s try ths pprch.

    1 wldn’t bthr wstng wrds hr. vntlly sm rctnry lbrl mdrtr (sms t b t lst 18 f thm s gd lck wth tht rffle) wll nsst tht smthng y sd ffndd t lst n f srl mlln nd wll scrmbl yr psts n wy f mking cnsrshp cte and fnny – jst lke th cltrl rvltn.

    Lbrl fscsts r s bd s cnsrvtv fscsts. S why dn’t nrmlly pst in ths thrds? Wst f typng. 1 prdct tht t lst 4% f ths thrd will b nrdble n 24 hrs.

    D cntnve t rll vt th rd crpt fr th Mzs. YV’ve dn bng vp jb fr th PRC nd th 1C. Why stp nw?

  82. Man, this thread is more redacted than anything squeezed out through the Freedom Of Information Act…

    Ya know, we really should include every single civil and human rights violation that has ever happened here in this thread, right? We’ve got time… Let’s line them all up here so we can compare their dick sizes. Godwin was a pussy. Let’s really get started!

    HOLDSTEIN: You’ve really got it all figured out, haven’t you? “Fuck Bono! Fuck the Hippies!” You’ve got yourself apathetically paralyzed into a perfect state of non-action. Brilliant! Quick to criticize anyone with the balls to actually do something instead of writing superlong diatribes, simply because you believe there should be other priorities? Dude! What are you doing right now to try to change the world for the better? Are you risking your heath and safety for your beliefs? The Tibetan protestors are heroes! It’s easy to disparage them. It makes it easier for you to lie in your drunken cesspool, slowly sinking.

    Yes, there are things that can and should be done all over the world to solve all the various injustices. Can we not work toward them together and applaud them all? That would be a… I dare say it… wonderful thing! I don’t see Bono pissing in your cornflakes. He’s done a hell of a lot more to try to right the world’s wrongs than you have, son. I suppose you think John Lennon never should have staged protests for peace, or there never should have been a Martin Luther King march to the Washington Monument to deliver the “I Have A Dream” speech. Bob Dylan and Joan Baez played there at that event. Hippies!

    The bottom line is that we all have our talents and ways we can work towards making the world a better place. Some people write songs to help shine a spotlight on injustices they perceive. Some people actually go to other countries and try to use their voices (Vox) to broker peace between factions that can’t see eye to eye, or provide much needed food and medicine. (Are we to believe you are currently teaching Africans to fish?) Some people bravely try to poke holes in the fabric of BS being pulled over horrible abuses being shovelled out in the Olympic Spirit Of Unity(tm). You seem like you are an intelligent person, but your overall thrust is pathetic. Is seeming cool so important to you that you’ve forgotten what people have sacrificed, and what has been gained by these people that you take for granted?

  83. @UglyCanuck

    “Hate speech is violence, of an emotional kind.”

    and violence is hate speech, of a phycical kind. Whose nation is occupied, physically? Oh, Tibet is!

    Naming a ew dalai and other lamas is hate speech, of a spiritual kind. Whose spiritual leaders have been siezed? Who has appointed new lama’s? Oh, China has!

    c’mon man. Apples and oranges, learn to tell them apart.

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