Palin believes dinosaurs and men once coexisted

The vice presidential candidate of a major political party in America apparently believes dinosaurs and men once walked the earth at the same time:
After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

Palin treads carefully between fundamentalist beliefs and public policy (Los Angeles Times)


  1. The real question is, does she think ancient humans domesticated dinosaurs and buried them in mass graves in order to give modern people oil? That would be the first and last known example of long-term right-wing planning.

  2. Well, if she saw pictures of human footprints inside the tracks… who are we to judge her. All those scientists are just wrong since all those years! ;)

  3. Don’t forget the SubGenius motto:

    “Act like a dumbfuck and they’ll treat you as an equal.”

    Only in this case I don’t think “act” is quite appropriate.

  4. she is correct of course. Participatory reality is indeed the order of the universe. In the world of Palin and her friends, Fred and Barney really did ride excavator dinosaurs at work and the imminent economic collapse is the direct work of Clinton. Iraq is grateful for her current state and Chuck Norris is an intelligent man. How I envy them.

  5. in her defense in another painful interview with couric she said that evolution should be taught in school, and didn’t mention any equal time bullshit.

    thats as far as i’m willing to go in her defense. she believes that if raped by a dinosaur, she should be responsible for her own dinorape kit, and should not be able to abort the dino-human-baby.

  6. I’m tellin’ ya… It’s all a product of Creationists with their time machines planting “evidence” all over the place.

  7. All I can do is hope Philip Munger is lying or being misquoted. If Palin really believes this – Why the hell didn’t McCain’s people do better research on this woman before they selected the spark that they wanted to ignite his campaign? Sure, she’s pretty (imo), a female -most important- also – I’m grasping at straws here – OK- she supports the very base issues for which most Republicans vote – things I can’t mention here. The first rhymes with anti-smashmortion.

    When my son first told me his Christian school’s curriculum taught that the world is only around 5,000 years old, I told him to forget about that. I taught him about the fossils paleontologists have found and carbon dating. I told him about the Sumerian civilization which has been dated to much earlier than what his teachers have told him the world has existed.

    Anyone that has any grasp on science has to accept that the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old. If you want to reconcile that fact with what the Bible teaches, there are tons of ambiguities in the Bible that allow you to accept what science teaches is the actual age of the earth.

    I’m just going to have to hope Palin has been misquoted here. Otherwise it just points to blind religious acceptance, or stupidity. Of couse as a Republican, if the latter is true, I just have to ignore it and hope for the best.

  8. Don’t be silly, people. Their candidacy is crystalline evidence that a dinosaur and a primitive human can exist at the same time.

  9. Dbarak: Nail. Head. Hit. Touchdown!

    Is it me, or Palin looks more scary than Bush and Co.? I mean, the current lot look like biblethumpers who are only into that to reap a sweet profit, and keep their popular base by “appeasing their god”, but now Palin actually seems to believe that kind of almost medieval mumbo-jumbo.

  10. Republicans. Meet the Republicans.
    They’re the modern stone age family.
    From the town of Wasilla,
    They’re a page right out of history.

    Let’s ride with the family down the street.
    Through the courtesy of McCain’s two feet.

    When you’re with the Republicans
    you’ll have a yabba dabba doo time.
    A dabba doo time.
    You’ll have a emphatically non-gay old time.

  11. Tom Hale, I hate to ruin your day, but I very much doubt Palin’s been misquoted. This isn’t the first hint we’ve had of her beliefs.

  12. I was in the video store today, and there was a DVD with Raquel Welch in a fur bikini on the cover. I felt a strange compulsion to rent it. I wonder why.

  13. Palin’s just trying to provide us with an exceptional Halloween. No ghouls and gore. This year, the group ensemble of coexisting dinosaur/ human will be all the rage. Also easily accommodates that errant friend(s) who neglects to plan a costume. Barney and 5 plain-clad people…a narrative dependent costume with so many possible versions. But, I like Palin’s the best. Of all possible fictions attaching a stuffed purple dinosaur and some dude, it’s the least probable.

    1. Given that I’m currently sporting Pebbles’ hairdo, I’m not sure that I approve of all this Flintstones humor.

  14. Since so many have mentioned Raquel Welch, I feel it is my duty to show you this video. Yes, it may be totally off topic but I feel I should, as a red blooded American male to point out this wonderful video. I first saw this on either BB or Make – so you may have seen it – however, you can never see too much Raquel Welch when she was in her prime. I swear, in this video, I’d put her up against any of our current starlets.

    Raquel Welch: Space-Girl Dance

  15. Seriously, read the Matt Taibbi article Xeni blogged about the other day. The most frightening thing about all of this is that nothing Palin believes matters. She could say Jesus rode around on a T-rex and it wouldn’t change anything. She’s the equivalent of a political reality show contestant, and in a month’s time half of this country is going to vote for her like dialing up and voting for their favorite American Idol singer.

  16. For a group of people who write about science and technology, ya’ll are awfully credulous when it comes to anything that reinforces your political beliefs. One person, who is a noted political adversary, says she told him this. That’s weak. She’s explicitly said she thinks that only evolution should be taught in public schools, no “equal time.” And the rape-kit rumor has been debunked by (bastion of conservatism, of course):

    I expect this from the chattering classes, but jeez…

  17. Tom Hale just because you are a republican that doesnt mean you have to just hope for the best. You could, and GET THIS. Vote for someone else.

  18. @#8 Takuan:
    The sad thing is, I think this country might elect Chuck Norris President if he were to run. That’s where we are today.

  19. Well, Ms Palin is a Fundamentalist Christian of the most conservative kind. They deny any science that contradicts the Bible, which they believe is fundamentally correct, the exact Word of their God.

    All that is needed now is to get this on video…

    I mean, honestly, no one would pick a male candidate with the exact same qualifications that she has, her only selling attribute is the fact that she is female. That is discrimination in it’s most pernicious guise. She is a “Token” woman in this race, to try to attract the female voters.

  20. I hail from the buckle of the Bible Belt. This is not an uncommon belief. Some will argue that dinosaur fossils were planted by God as a test of faith, and others will just discount radiometric dating as hocus pocus.

  21. I’ve got my fur bikini ready, gals.

    Antinous: It’s okay, I usually look like I’ve been dragged back home by a caveman by the hair.

    Something that concerns me-

    Around a week ago, Condoleeza Rice insulted Russia.
    Rice says Russia has taken a “dark turn”
    Then in the inteview with Couric, Palin made the ‘Putin rears his head in Alaskan airspace’ comment.
    In the Presidential debate, McCain can see “KGB” in Putin’s eyes.

    Anyone see where I’m going with this? Anyone? Bueller?

    1. Bueller?

      I’m more concerned about our ‘missile shield’ in Poland that will be pointed at Russia. Dima and Volodya aren’t too happy about it. Of course, the real foofaraw will be between Russia and Canada as they fight for oil rights at the North Pole.

  22. Re Tom Hale’s comment:

    When my son first told me his Christian school’s curriculum taught that the world is only around 5,000 years old, I told him to forget about that. I taught him about the fossils paleontologists have found and carbon dating. I told him about the Sumerian civilization which has been dated to much earlier than what his teachers have told him the world has existed.

    … Anyone that has any grasp on science has to accept that the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old. If you want to reconcile that fact with what the Bible teaches, there are tons of ambiguities in the Bible that allow you to accept what science teaches is the actual age of the earth.

    –> Good for you Tom Hale. Score one for empirical research. And please spread the word.

    –> Laughable:

    Sure, she’s pretty (imo), a female -most important

    –> “Fall, in, to, the, GOP…”

    I’m just going to have to hope Palin has been misquoted here. Otherwise it just points to blind religious acceptance, or stupidity. Of course as a Republican, if the latter is true, I just have to ignore it and hope for the best*.

    * I challenge anyone to come up with a better encapsulation of how Republicans operate : )

  23. Why the hell didn’t McCain’s people do better research on this woman before they selected the spark that they wanted to ignite his campaign?

    They did. John McCain knew who she was and what her beliefs are. She was no mystery to the Right. If Sarah or someone like her were ever elected president there is little change she/he would be allowed to do any real damage to those who put her there. To the Nation sure, but to the ruling class the likes of Sara Palin are exactly what they want.

  24. ‘”Are we saying they (evangelical christians) can’t participate in public life?” Wead asked’

    Errr… well yes, actually, as far as I am concerned. It should be of the gravest concern that critical decisions are to be made by those who choose to reject evidence-based logic and fact when forming opinions that ultimately guide their actions. Worse still, those who would seek to spread their fucking “faith” to otherwise rational people should definitely not be in a position to decide or influence educational policies, especially those applicable to the young.

    I sometimes take solace in the simplistic notion that if the US elects this nut-job then they will get what they deserve. Unfortunately, the rest of the world will likely also get what the largely do not deserve.

  25. Palin is as close to literally being a rhetorical device as it’s possible for a tangible object to be.

  26. @#46 Takuan:

    is it time for other countries to covertly involve themselves in the outcome of the American election?

    No, that was eight years ago.

  27. I’m beginning to think Tom Hale is really Xeni in disguise, posting here in the for[a]ums to make Democrats even more decided, and make smart Republicans question their vote.

    Nice job, Xeni, but I’ve got my eye on you. -_o

  28. How is this a big deal? According to a recent poll 83% of Americans say they are Christians, given that, this is simply her view on the premise that the vast majority of the country say they believe in.

  29. Xeni, I’m no fan of Palin, but you’re representing the single hearsay comment of a hard left anti-Palin activist who compares Palin to Mussolini as fact. Check out Munger’s blog and tell me if you think he’s a credible neutral witness:

    Palin was just on CBS saying she thought evolution (and only evolution) should be taught in schools:

    It’s well known that most Americans (especially the hard evangelical right who embrace Palin) have an unfortunately wrongheaded opinion about evolution. So why would Palin dismiss “intelligent design” to Katie Couric unless she didn’t actually believe in it?

    So on the one hand, we have Palin essentially denying the “dinosaurs and humans” meme on national TV, even though it’s not politically expedient for her to do so… and on the other hand, you have the single source hearsay comment of a partisan ideologue.

    Talk about faith-based politics.

  30. And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus… with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin’: “What a big fucking lizard, Lord!” But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus’s paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord.

    The dinosaur bit was the first one I’d ever heard Bill Hicks deliver, and I was immediately hooked. “Finally!” I thought.

  31. Dear Takuan

    Replace “Republicans” with “Palins”

    and make a video of that for youtube.

    And it would also seem that even though having a gay old time is out, perhaps her daughter would be available for some late night entertainment?

  32. Even if you don’t take the witness as credible, her particular brand of christian faith makes it much harder to believe that she wouldn’t hold such a view. Seriously, if she is a pentacostal christian (as she professes and video would support) who doesn’t believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old and that man and dinosaur co-existed she is an incredible anomaly.

    One of the biggest problems with Palin is that the real issues with her are so outlandish that they seem like absurd attacks – because she is such an absurd candidate to be a heartbeat from the Presidency. Perhaps that is the genius of choosing her, I can hear them in that backroom now: “She’s perfect, if they try and tell people the truth about her they will laughed off as crazy for making wild accusations’

  33. Oh #33, time to report back to the message machine with bad news:

    Slate’s article debunking gets debunked here:

    oh, and a good point is raised here too:

    Finally, here here for Slate trying to be stand-up about nuance, they must be taking cues from Fox, cuz that’s what Fox’s all about : ) Kinda like the NRO going off on Palin the other day. Oh wait, the National Review did! Ah well …

    And let’s address this logic cropping up: “She said on Couric on she doesn’t want to teach Creationism in school!”

    Yeah, okay. And that takes away from the premise that she believes Dino and Fred co-existed on more than a TV show how? She can say she does not want to teach Creationism in schools and still believe this. In fact, she’s on Couric and she’s playing to the middle? During a campaign? No! So, #53, this would also explain why she would do so on Couric. The right-base is energized. They know who she plays for. They know what is taught in their fundy churches — Dino and Fred! Dino and Fred! She can try and calm the country down now, and if she gets in — bring on the “Blessed Bes!”

    Moving on to #52: Well, 83% of the country is christian and this is just a christian garden-variety belief. 83% of the country answers that question with MANY being very nominal christians. What percentage actually go to church each Sunday (and will tell the truth about it when confronted by a survey?). What percentage belong to the churches that believe in Fred and Dino? So under this logic, 83% of the country puts down Christianity when asked to provide a religion, so whatever wacky permutations thereof going on at Waco weren’t such a big deal …

    Finally, the tactic of beating on the messenger — he’s a mean old lying lib! Well, maybe he’s not on Palin’s side — so let Sarah deny it. Ask Sarah if she believes in Fred and Dino. Given what I know of her particular church, and the hard right constituency she pleases — it’s VERY likely she does, whether the guy calling her out is Lefty Louie or not. Let’s see if she makes a statement.

  34. Xeni,

    Thanks for the laugh! We really need ’em these days when we can get ’em. I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the Flintstones attached to the post.

  35. “And that takes away from the premise that she believes Dino and Fred co-existed on more than a TV show how?”

    It takes away from the premise that this is an honest conversation. No credible journalist would report the hearsay assertion of a single interested source as fact. Especially after CNN tracked down the apparent beginning of this Palin dinosaur meme to a blogger named Bob who simply just made it up. I’m not even kidding:

  36. And the only thing I can think to say, is did you see the movie 10,000 BC that proves Palin right? Wasn’t Raquel Welch in that one? And too bad Xeni won’t let use certain words about the Palins. I feel its because they are words that women find very hateful, which I agree a woman would, but then that is why I used them. We have to take the gloves off here Xeni. Ask yourself what would Karl Rove and his minions do and are now doing for McCain? The ends do justify the means when its just words in my opinion. Even if it degrades my character and what other people think of me.

  37. Every day, I think that there’s no possible way that the election cycle can horrify me any more. A short time later, without fail, I am proven wrong.

  38. #47 FTW!

    Palin is as close to literally being a rhetorical device as it’s possible for a tangible object to be.

    Right on the money.

  39. #71

    Um, you misappropriated my quote to another argument.

    The quote about “… and this takes away …” goes to the argument that she says she told Couric she doesn’t want to teach creationism in school. And I’m saying that doesn’t mean she doesn’t believe in Dino and Fred, just because she said doesn’t want to teach it. Oh, and thanks for putting up the CNN video, because it shows that while she told Couric she didn’t want to teach it, it should be “debated.” Hmmm.

    Oh, and let’s address another thing that CNN video showed — the blogger who made up the silly thing that she did not say. It sounds like on the air he was being so outrageous that it was supposed to pass as a joke. He’s NOT the same guy who this thread is about. The thread is about a guy who claims he had a conversation with her that sounds VERY PLAUSIBLE given the nature of her church and the nature of fundy beliefs. Again, let’s ask her, shall we?

  40. Sarah, John & Rovie
    On a routine expedition
    To the greatest office ever known!
    High upon their savior
    They voted their tiny minds.
    And plunged us all a thousand years ago!

    To the Land of the Lost…

    Meanwhile: How about Yabba-Dabba-DON’T!?!

    (Does this make Barack, Obam-bama?)

  41. If it’s good enough for The Far Side, it’s good enough for me!

    (One of the questions on Cash Cab today was along the lines of “Gary Larson drew the ire of scientists when he drew antarctic penguins next to what arctic carnivore?” which reminded me of another creative liberty he took with science from time to time.)

  42. It’s called Young Earth creationism.

    If you don’t know about much about carbon dating and aren’t terribly familiar with Stratification it makes a certain amount of sense.
    I’m not wild about Bush, I’m terrified of McCain as president. Does that make it ok to mock and ridicule peoples religious beliefs on the front page of boingboing?
    Is there a single person here that can prove, verifiably prove (Without Wikipedia’s help) that the dinosaurs didn’t roam the earth with humans? Or are the only two supporting facts you have is the 6th grade trip to the museum and hearing “The Jurassic period was millions of years before the humans showed up.”
    May I never run for president and have my own personal dreams and beliefs put up on the world stage for ridicule.

  43. The fact that McCain’s running mate is prepared to ignore incontrovertible evidence that dinosaurs pre-dated humans suggests that he may also be prepared to ignore such evidence and/or evidence of anything else, when it suits him.

    I dread to hear creationist foreign policy on Iran.

  44. I don’t think we can mock Sarah Palin’s view of history – were any of us actually there when dinosaurs roamed the world? No. McCain, however, was there, so Sarah knows what she is talking about.

    Say what you like about Sarah Palin, she is such a colorful addition (and distraction) to McCain’s campaign, that if the vote was for which side would be the most amusing when in power the Republicans would definitely win.

  45. Sometimes you have to wonder if politicians aren’t just messing with us when they say stuff like that. Or, on the other hand, this info was passed on by some dude who volunteered the information to the media. He could be making it up.

    I won’t defend or lambast anybody. Politics bores the hell out of me. But I’m guessing either the guy who said all this is lying, or Palin is a little misguided on what the phrase “carbon dated” means.

  46. Nathan, It’ll never happen. They control the questions at those “town hall” meetings tighter than Ms Palin’s butt.

  47. I used to know Republicans. Then I moved to the People Republic of Cambridge (MA). Since then, pretty much all of my friends are hippie leftists with the occasional libertarian thrown in for flavor. I would love to talk to my old Republican friends. They were all very sharp, smart people that had well thought out and articulated opinions. I could respect them even when I violently disagreed with them. Why do I want to talk to ye ol’ Republican friends? I am dying to know how they are taking suffering through Palin.

    If you are an ignorant red neck you believes the world is a few thousand years old and that Obama is a Muslim, Palin probably is not rocking your boat. On the other hand, if you are just a fiscal conservative with perhaps some more down to earth socially conservative views, Palin has have achieved a tearing-your-heart-out now level of disheartening.

    I really have some pity for the Republicans. I mean seriously, there are perfectly smart Republicans they could have picked, not this dunce. Hell, Newt Gingrich has less baggage than Palin and no one could ever argue that he is stupid or inarticulate. Even Romney would have been perfectly fine when you put it in the context of Palin.

    To quote an unnamed Republican insider (probably right before he jumped), “Comparing Palin to Dan Quayle is disrespectful to Dan Quayle”. Intelligent Republicans out there, you have my sympathy… but not my vote.

  48. #83 by that arguement, that any of your beliefs should not be up for mockery, hey why not have a candidate who believes the world is flat or the moon is made out of cheese eh?

    the relative ages of the dinosaur skeletons and human/protohuman skeletons found, as determined by carbon dating, make it clear these two species did not coexist.

    Anyone who believes otherwise is unbelievably deluded.

  49. I’ll second slowth, #38. There are plenty of people out there who believe in a 6000 year timeline (though in my opinion, it’s not all clear in the Bible).

    The dinosaur and human footprints that Palin refers to have been debunked as a hoax. I believe the thing that tipped people off was the tiny tool marks, though this article says that the hoaxer confessed as well.

    I expected people to think of this right away. Am I only familiar with it because I had a quarter of “Origins” at my Christian high school? I have no idea what year this was debunked, so perhaps people were still using it as evidence back when she was in school.

    There’s a lot to be said for “evidence” like this that’s easier to understand than carbon dating. If you can’t use that to persuade, I’d point to 14,000 years of tree rings.

    And #66, thanks for the links – they’re very good points to make about the rape kit situation.

  50. If you believe in creation as the Bible says, then you must believe as she does. I, too, believe that the world is not as old as those who believe in the absurdity of evolution. I know, you are going to point to the carbon dating etc. However, I have seen the carbon dating on Mt.St.Helens and what one volcano did to the lakes below. Carbon dating does not work. God to ICR and search out that findings. A catastrophe like the flood in Noah’s day could make the world appear as old as they say when in reality the Bible was right all along.

    For me, it would take an awful lot of blind faith to believe the evolutionist view over a proven God creation. “There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the ends there of are the ways of death”.

    I praise Palin for standing up, in this case, for the Word of God.

  51. For me, it would take an awful lot of blind faith to believe the evolutionist view over a proven God creation.

    Thanks for your input Peggie. Others would argue however that evolution is more than a ‘view’.

  52. I think it might be relevant to note that’s may be what she believed in 1997.

    If you’d asked me that in 1997, I might have said something similar, but my views have “evolved” since then. Palin has switched from an AoG church to a more “moderate” church. Her religious views on the origin of life may have moderated too. Most people don’t realize that Intelligent Design isn’t most of all (at all?) a stalking horse for young earth creationism, its a version of “creationism” that more moderate believers can latch on to.

    I’d also like to remind everyone that the constitution prohibits ANY religious test for office holding. :)

  53. @24: see, that’s proof positive. Ravquel Welch is not “millions” of years old. Only a couple thousand ;)

  54. I also want to add that Palin believes that a dead man 2000 years ago came back to life and flew up into the sky never to be seen again.

    But if that disqualifies her as “unscientific” then I wonder which presidents have been disqualified?

  55. I loathe Sarah Palin, and I suspect that she probably is a Creationist of some sort, but shouldn’t we be a little skeptical when hearing the claims of a partisan blogger who is quoting a conversation that took place with her over ten years ago?

    Again, I despise Palin and think Creationism is an insult to reason, but I can’t help but think that we wouldn’t be so quick to take at face value the word of a conservative blogger who had something pejorative to say about Obama.

    Just playing Devil’s Advocate here. Disemvowelling in 3…2…1…

  56. Re #83: I don’t ridicule religious beliefs, even if I don’t share them. However, religion works best when it is simply an act of faith and a moral/ethical code for one’s behavior. Unfortunately, thousands of years ago, in many cultures no distinction was made between science (which didn’t even have its own word yet) and religion. If the spiritual leader of the tribe told you that this deity created the Universe in such & such a fashion, that MUST be true, because the wise old leader said so. It worked for the stability of the tribe. Consequently, we (humanity) have widely varying creation myths. Yeah, there will be some similarities between cultures, but there are lots of dissimilarities too.

    Moses Maimonides, in his “Guide for the Perplexed” (about 1100 AD) is the earliest philosopher I know of to admit that our understanding of the Universe has changed and will very likely continue to change as our methods and instruments of study evolve. (In this sense he echoes the statement made about Socrates in that “He is wise who knows the extent of his own ignorance.”) Although Maimonides still fiercely clings to Scripture as though it were irrefutable fact, he begins to admit that when it comes to that which can be observed and measured, the sages of old were not able to measure them as well as we, and therefore their statements about the nature of the universe were very likely incorrect. This may be the beginning of the separation of science and religion, at least in Medieval thought. (Some ancient Greek philosophers had laid the groundwork for this, and as we can see, some of our contemporaries STILL haven’t figured out that science & religion really belong on separate plates.)

    In short (Too late!), in the words of Anna in “The King and I,” “The Bible was written by men of faith, not men of science.” And just because the Earth looks flat from the ground does not mean it’s not spherical. The problem with fundamentalist sects is that they believe in total infallibility of anything mentioned in Scripture (or, THEIR Scripture, to be precise), including material that has nothing to do with the tenets of their faith, and everything to do with the not-very-empirical “science” of ancient times.

  57. All the candidates profess Christianity, in which a Savior was born who was God incarnate yet also fully human. These Christians also believe this man/God was killed and then came back to life, and then ascended into ‘heaven’ to live with God, also being a part of God, and that He will come again and judge us – living and dead, to see if we merit heaven ourselves. We gain this merit by accepting this man/God as the Son of God and our personal Savior, as well as that his death was in expiation of our ‘sins’.

    I’m a Christian myself, but a basic reading of my beliefs (above) makes it seem pretty silly. The important thing to me is not what a candidate believes, but what they try to make others do based on those beliefs.

    I won’t belittle Joe Biden for believing that when he eats a Consecrated Host, he is partaking of the ACTUAL, LITERAL body of Christ – in fact, as a Catholic, I believe that myself. But why is no one taking him to task for that bizarre belief? It is as crazy as dinosaur-human coexistence beliefs, isn’t it?

  58. I have a relative who is a young earth Creationist. He also has a Ph.D in engineering and does research at a major university. I’m not sure what that tells you.

  59. The VP debate cannot happen soon enough. Don’t hold back Gwen Ifill. It’ll be comedy gold!
    It’s too late for a substitute on the Republican ticket isn’t it?

  60. A CBS poll three years ago found “Most Americans do not accept the theory of evolution. Instead, 51 percent of Americans say God created humans in their present form, and another three in 10 say that while humans evolved, God guided the process. Just 15 percent say humans evolved, and that God was not involved.”

    That in itself is scary.

  61. wigwam jones: Whether or not the Consecrated Host is actually the body of Jesus Christ is beyond the purview of science – and indeed, beyond the gainsay of any honest person speaking based on demonstrable fact.

    Whether the dinosaurs co-existed with humans is subject to not only the purview of one scientific discipline, but in fact many scientific disciplines, and they all say “Absolutely: No evidence of dinosaurs co-existing with humans and enormous amounts of evidence showing millions of years between the extinction of dinosaurs and the arisal of humans.”

    Both of these are cultural artifacts. One of them is willful ignorance held by people who wish to deny teaching children science in a public school because their particular sometimes-literal interpretation of a 2000-year-old editorial transcription of a 3000-year-old oral tradition, contradicts modern science.

  62. epic fail, sarah.

    the ‘cuteness’ factor wears away after the first few dates…i think we need to break up.

  63. @Wigwam
    I think the reason the Christian thing hasn’t been brought up is exactly because all of the candidates are Christians.
    But to base your beliefs, like the belief that dinosaurs and people lived at the same time, on nothing whatsoever, and to believe that she is smarter than those dumbass paleontologists for no apparent reason, that disturbs me just a little bit.

  64. What Biden should say to Palin in the debate tomorrow night: Gov. I know Dan Quayle…and Gov. you’re NO Dan Quayle.


  65. I have a book that says at one point not too long ago Martians violently attacked our planet and almost annihilated the human race, but we fought back and won. I’ve spent much of my adult life showing how this could be true according to science (in my spare time, between worshipping the human who led the resistance and coaching soccer), and how regular ol’ stupid science, which claims that Martians have never been here, is clearly wrong.

    Palin believes about the Martians, therefore I personally think she’s a great person.

  66. When the GOP did their vetting on her, did they just check to ensure the presence of a vagina and leave it at that? At least Quayle just mispronounced stuff. This lady appears to have disregarded nearly everything taught to her in school because it wasn’t in the bibble.

  67. #66 – You have no idea what my affiliations are. Don’t place your own empty-headed partisan motivations on others. Your lack of class is showing.

    I go to right-leaning sites to refute their rumors about the Democratic candidates. Credulous acceptance of any report that reinforces your views is unbecoming in a democratic society, regardless of party.

  68. @ #107 Bardfinn

    OK, I take your point, well said.

    On your last point, “One of them is willful ignorance held by people who wish to deny teaching children science in a public school because their particular sometimes-literal interpretation of a 2000-year-old editorial transcription of a 3000-year-old oral tradition, contradicts modern science,” I would take issue only because in that same interview, she was asked what should be taught in public schools and she said evolution should be taught in public schools as established science.

    So although I concede your major point, I still do not think she intends (based on her statements and prior governing activities) to try to implement your last assertion.

  69. Wigwam Jones @102: I’ve often wondered how many other people have to share one’s delusions before it ceases to be considered a mental illness and becomes a religion.

  70. @ #116 Jackie31337

    I agree, and have wondered the same thing. I wonder what we’d be discussing if Romney were the VP or Presidental candidate at this point.

    At one time, there was a great fear that JFK would take his marching orders from Rome if he were elected. He was, but didn’t.

  71. Srsly, wh dcdd tht rmvng vwls frm psts y dn’t lk wld b clvr thng?

    Wht slly frm f cnsrshp. Wht s th pnt f t? spps t ws msng th frst fw tms, bt nw t’s jst pln nnyng.

    thr jst b pnss nd dlt th psts y dn’t lk th tn f, r lv thm b s w cn ll s thm n thr ntrty. Tht’s prt f fr dscrs… smtms flks sy thngs y dn’t lk. Grw p nd dl wth t.

    Sr, dlt th psts tht r ptntly bsv r ntntnlly ffnsv r nsltng, wtht sbstnc. Tht’s ndrstndbl. Bt sm f ths dsmvwlld psts dn’t sm t fll n ths ctgrs.

    Hw chldsh t pprs whn y gv thm ths hlf-cnsrshp trtmnt. t nslts th ntllgnc f ll f yr rdrs.

  72. If we had a true separation of church and state in this country I don’t think politicians’ religious beliefs would matter very much. But we don’t have separation of church and state and it seems the “religious right” is (usually) not satisfied to practice their religion in private.

  73. Anyone who believes that the earth is about 6,000 years old simply does not have the intellectual seriousness necessary to be anywhere near the Oval Office. Such a person does not live in the same universe that I do.

    Is anyone else worried that we’re on the way to becoming the society in Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale” if Palin gets into office? I live in a pretty “red” part of Texas, and I keep wondering if everyone around me has lost their minds whenever I see McCain/Palin yard signs and bumper stickers everywhere.

    Anytime anyone cites scrutiny of Palin’s beliefs as evidence of bigotry against Christians, tell them that Creationism as we know it today didn’t exist until the 19th century and that Christian thinkers as far back as St. Augustine argued pretty strenuously against interpreting the creation narrative in Genesis literally.

  74. “Separation of church and state” is a myth and an impossibility. The constitution just forbids congress to make any laws establishing a “state religion” or keeping people from practicing their own religion. It doesn’t require them to keep their religious beliefs out of their office. In fact it would be impossible to require lawmakers not to allow their religious beliefs to influence their decisions. Which is why it is so scary to many people that Palin (and many other people currently in office) hold such strong fundamentalist beliefs.

    In some ways, I have more admiration for fundamentalist Christians than I do for more liberal Christians. At least they hold to their beliefs. They don’t say “well, I believe some bits of the Bible and not others, and I just decide which pieces I want to believe”. They say “for some of the Bible to be true, it all has to be true” and so they hold to beliefs like dinosaurs co-existed with man because the world is only 10,000 years old, so there couldn’t have been dinosaurs millions of years ago.

    Of course, just because I respect their dedication doesn’t mean I want them making domestic policy decisions based on 5,000-year-old mystical beliefs.

  75. I think anytime your belief system is too rigid you are going to have problems. Fundamentalism is a dangerous practice, be it Christianity or Islam.

    Obviously, though, having a spiritual core that you nurture through a religious practice can be very empowering for many people, leaders included, and it should be respected.

    I honestly don’t care if your religion holds fast to some erroneous paleontology. They don’t believe in carbon dating? Big deal. We are not dealing in the realm of the rational/scientific. We are dealing with religion. It is an entirely different animal. Just keep them separate, please.

    Believing in Fred Flinstone does not necessarily mean you are anti-science. Anti-science is doing, what Bush has done relentlessly, which is disregard scientific findings on Global Warming. Too bad Bush never warmed up to that whole earth stewardship thing. God’s green earth has been getting royally fucked under our Christian pres.

  76. SAMF – The whole point of the way Jesus Christ spoke to people – via metaphor and parable – was to get across to them ideas that, because language is inherently weak in describing complex ideas, are far too grand to explain literally. When I see people taking anything in the Bible literally it proves to me instantly that they’re not very smart, haven’t been paying attention, and/or have been misled by similarly small-minded people in places of dubious authority.

    Metaphor and parable are intended to be abstract, and therefore interpretable. People are naturally going to interpret the Bible differently, for better or worse. But to interpret literally is to miss the point entirely.

    Plus, people who embrace certain parts of the Bible over others may also be admitting – intelligently, I think – that times do change, that culture evolves, and that what was true for the cultures in the Bible many centuries ago do not apply to one’s culture today.

  77. If they want to teach creationism in schools then they should teach every creation myth, not just their christian variant, and evolution in all private schools recieving Federal funding or state vouchers. the Australian aborignal Dreaming is especially beautiful.

  78. Couple of comments in a generic sense.

    1) Taking the bible literally is a choice, as is taking it as metaphorical. To say that one is ‘correct’ and the other not is not authoritative.

    2) Again, nowhere have I seen any evidence that Sarah Palin intends to impose her religious beliefs, whatever they may be, on anyone else – or that she’d have the authority as VP to do so.

    3) Even as a practicing and believing Catholic, I know that some of my beliefs have very little basis in verifiable scientific provable fact. So one kind of odd religious belief is ok, and another isn’t?

    I say that last bit because although I do not agree with the Evangelical belief that men and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time, I am a minor student of history and know that at one time, Catholics were persecuted for their beliefs – because they were so ‘out of step’ and ‘wrong’ and ‘evil’. The group being skewered has changed, but the methods of persecution have not, really.

  79. Wigwam Jones #115:

    Whether she has said it or not, she’s running as the VP candidate for the party that /does/ seek to undermine teaching science in favor of myth.

  80. This is not about whatever silly ass archaic shit people believe, it’s a free world after all. This is about the exploit ion of our inherent ability to believe silly ass archaic shit despite contradictory evidence, and what believers do based on those beliefs to control the lives of non-believers.

    Make no mistake, her beliefs influence her opinions and decisions, it would be a violation of her faith to do otherwise. Though telling a lie to get elected seems to be OK.

  81. STARCADIA@124: Good point. Even those who profess to a literal interpretation of the bible pick and choose. For instance, the same book that has been interpreted as saying homosexuality is immoral (Leviticus 22) also says it is immoral to touch the skin of a pig. How many fundamentalists are protesting football games? (The answer is NONE.)

    PDUGGIE@97&99: Your interpretation itself is far from literal. Where in the bible does it say Jesus “flew up into the sky”? “He is risen” does not mean this necessarily. Nice image though. You aren’t the first to assert that Jesus was Superman. We can paint a pretty picture of him riding a unicorn with sparkly rainbows shimmering in the distance, but this does not make it true, nor is it good to use to try to refute scientific findings.

    PEGGIE@94: Where do you get off presuming to tell us what is the “Word of God?” I don’t think you’d be too happy if I imposed my religion upon you, so I will thank you not to do the same. And btw, the whole point of the scientific method is to remove blind faith from the equation altogether. All of the sciences use repeatable consistent results to further our knowledge, based on overwhelming observable evidence, not some belligerent repeated mantra of opinion.

    If fundamentalists really don’t believe in science, they should go live like the Amish and take none of the benefits of modern technology like computers, combustion engines, and steel radial tires. You are picking and choosing which parts of the scientific method to benefit from just as much as which parts of the contradictory multiply re-translated “word of god” to believe literally. I think a candidate for the highest offices in the land should be a little more flexible with their interpretations, personally. Taking a stand on willful ignorance is hardly commendable.

    WIGWAM@115: Please read the previous posts in a thread before posting on a topic. You insult us all by reasserting what was clearly debunked by MADDY@76. As in the previous thread where you took up for Palin citing false information from propped up sites, you are clearly only here to provide as much disinformation as possible. How many McCain points have you racked up so far?

  82. WIGWAM@126: I don’t think any of your odd religious beliefs are ok, if you seek to hold public office and believe they supersede your oath to protect and defend the Constitution, as all Fundamentalists have shown to be the case. My else do we see time and time again footage of Pentecostals praying to insert their people into public office? Not once did Kennedy let his religious beliefs trump this oath. Not once have we seen bush uphold it. Your arguments are getting specious and weak. Please stop dominating the conversation if you’ve got nothing new to say. Your astroturf is wearing thin.

  83. Phikus – are you referring to my previous reference to It is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, and as far as I know, it is often accused of being a tool of the left as being a tool of the right. I find it to be pretty much skewers both sides equally where they make misstatements. I won’t make any further comments in this thread, I’m not trying to cause trouble or start a fight.

  84. I don’t care how hard people are working to sell me on Sarah Palin, I just ain’t votin’ for her!

  85. #117
    At one time, there was a great fear that JFK would take his marching orders from Rome if he were elected. He was, but didn’t.

    r .. dd h?

    (c mns msc …)

  86. They don’t say “well, I believe some bits of the Bible and not others, and I just decide which pieces I want to believe”. They say “for some of the Bible to be true, it all has to be true”

    That of course is why fundamentalist Christians all keep kosher. Because they believe in the whole Bible. The not rounding the corners of your beard part. All the rituals that are spelled out in Leviticus. Yup, they believe in the whole damn thing. Except the inconvenient things like not eating bacon. Those bits, not so much.

  87. WIGWAM: Yes, I was referring to “factcheck,” although I think they added the first C. For all of your protestations about their being neutral, the two citations you linked I proved definitively incorrect by going to the original and highly respected journalistic sources, The New York Times and The Washington Post. When / if they print a retraction, I will stand corrected, but they haven’t so I won’t. They have full-time professional fact checkers and are the only mainstream media sources in America still trying to act like the 4th estate. I do not know the agenda of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, as I said in the other thread, and do not trust those who claim to have a monopoly on the facts. I am repeating this because you didn’t seem to bother to return the favor of looking into the citations I posted.

    I thank you for your abstention until you have something new to say.

  88. Repost of a Christopher Hitchens quote, which I believe sums up the problem with religion quite well.

    When I was asked, when you say religion poisons everything do you mean everything, as in say, chess? Well, yes, in a way, because, it attacks us in our deepest integrity, it says that we would be nothing, that we would have no principles, no humor, no irony, no decency if we were not the property, the born property, of a supernatural dictatorship, and yearned for its rewards or feared its punishments. It attacks us in our core, and it does so, in a related way, that I think is also quite close to the core, I don’t know about you, by deforming our sexuality in the same manner by saying that all this too is a source of guilt and shame and fear. So, yes, of course, it is poisonous, and we shouldn’t grant the idea that even if metaphysically untrue, which it most certainly is, that religion is non the less the teacher of morals, it is to the contrary the source of misery, guilt, shame, unhappiness, and immorality.

  89. to #94 “Peggie”:

    “However, I have seen the carbon dating on Mt.St.Helens and what one volcano did to the lakes below.”

    “Go {typo corrected}to ICR”

    A sickening, pathetic joke:

    “A catastrophe like the flood in Noah’s day could make the world appear as old as they say”

    If you know nothing about radiometric dating (as is very, clear from your mention of “carbon dating” in a way that illustrates that you think that scientists are able to date more than a few tens of thousands of years back with it)– while you can’t do experiments on that on your own in your own home– you CAN disprove this on your own with just an aquarium full of water, a few handsfull of gravel, sand, and soil. Toss ’em all in the aquarium. Watch ’em settle. The the gravel will sink– uh– like a rock. The sand’ll take a few seconds. The soil and clay will spend days settling out. Bump the aquarium at all, and the water will become murky again. The point? DIFFERENT SIZES OF MATERIAL SINK UNDER DIFFERENT CONDITIONS– the size of the sediment and the speed of the water determine what type of rocks are lain down. And the geological record is filled with a large number of very complex sets of layers, some of which show very rapid waters, some of which could be formed only with MILLIONS of years of very calm, very deep waters– and they alternate, over and over and over. There is simply NO WAY a single, global flood could have done that. And, if you were someone interested in intellectual honesty, you could figure it out in your own living room.

  90. #96, BKDUNBAR, i call shenanigans! i lil bit of self-disemvowelment ? u is so busted! and here is the “evdnc”. PEGGIE @#94, if that is really what you truly believe, all i can say is “Wow”. and all i can think is that you really should get out more.

  91. Palin said “she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks,”

    Nothing prevents humans from leaving footprints in dinosaurs tracks millions of years after the tracks were originally made.

  92. Nothing prevents humans from leaving footprints in dinosaurs tracks millions of years after the tracks were originally made.

    Yes, but the photographs themselves were taken millions of years ago.

    Ha! Game, set, match.

  93. PEGGIE: Carbon-14 dating is not what is used to determine the age of the Earth. Carbon-14 dates samples no older than about 60,000 years. What you are referring to is radiometric dating. There are almost 20 different types of radiometric dating, each having a different application. I’m sure you are an expert on radiometric dating, so you are no doubt aware results are often crosschecked by using more than one sample and more than one method.

    For determining the age of our Earth and Solar system Potassium-argon and Rubidium-strontium dating are used to test samples of ancient igneous rocks, meteorites, and moon rocks returned by the Apollo astronauts.

    Creationists like to point out the difficulties in determining the age of different samples, but at this point there is no doubt that the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Even if this was off by 75 percent, the Earth would still be considerably older than Western religions would have us believe without evidence.

  94. I’m a scientist by degree from UIUC. I don’t endorse either candidate. This is just to clear the record.

    The age of the universe is based solely on carbon dating (or other radioactive dating methods). These methods are flawed and based on huge assumptions (or shall I say faith) that concentrations of radioactive material were constant in the atmosphere during the period that you’re testing back until. So … this would hardly qualify as science in my humble opinion because it takes faith to believe it.

    I believe the definition of religion is based on faith and it’s my assertion that evolution and the age of the universe is none other than religion.

    Sorry folks. All that you’ve learned needs a strong examination. It’s as if you believe in evolution as the European’s believed the world was flat.

    Don’t assume something is science purely because it is taught in a science book. I have studied the evidence and quite frankly resembles a piece of Swiss cheese.

    I would gladly encourage anyone with a shred of true knowledge to “step up to the plate” and refute this.

    I have not read a single post previous with anything but pure assumption.

  95. I’m sorry. I didn’t see the post from FoetusNail 2 above.

    Potassium-argon, rubidium-strontium, and samarium-neodymium radioactive testing all produce significantly (2 to 3 times) different result for the SAME sample. This is troublesome.

    How do you explain the differences in dating results other that the decay rates are not the same as it is assumed? The decay rates are not then what they are today. It is impossible to KNOW exactly what the decay rates where and why they are different today. This is what NEEDS to be explained for me to accept ANY validity in the methods discussed. Such a margin of error between the different methods is unacceptable.

    You guessed that if the assumed age of the earth is 75% wrong then well that is still much different than Western Religion would have us believe.

    What type of religion are you preaching?

  96. @Takuan

    Off topic?

    Didn’t mean to question your god. Guess that get’s the title Troll … or am I being presumptuous …

    Let’s get back to the real religion …

  97. #142

    #96, BKDUNBAR, i call shenanigans! i lil bit of self-disemvowelment ? u is so busted! and here is the “evdnc”.

    I thght t ws bvs I ws prctcng slf-dsmvwlmnt.

    Th pnt s tht dsmvwlmnt s lme, ths s m wy f pntng tht t.

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