15-year-old girl beaten by sheriff's deputy


For some reason, the King County Sheriff's department tried to block the release of this video showing Officer Friendly beating up a 15-year-old girl.

"We had argued strenuously that the videotape released to the media this morning not be released because it does not tell the whole story of the incident," attorney Anne Bremner said in a statement.

"As we argued to the judge, it will inflame public opinion and will severely impact the deputy's right to a fair trial."

The video shows Schene and Brunner as they escorted the girl into the holding cell. Schene had asked her to remove her basketball shoes, and, as she slipped out of her left shoe, she appeared to kick it at Schene.

Schene then lunged through the door and kicked her, striking either her stomach or upper thigh area, court documents say. He pushed her against a corner wall before flinging her to the floor by her hair. He then squatted down on her and made "two overhead strikes," although it's unclear where the blows landed.

Beating caught on police video: Tape shows officer kicking, striking teenager (via The Agitator)

244

  1. “We had argued strenuously that the videotape released to the media this morning not be released because it does not tell the whole story of the incident,” attorney Anne Bremner said in a statement.

    “As we argued to the judge, it will inflame public opinion and will severely impact the deputy’s right to a fair trial.”

    It SHOULD inflame public opinion.

    The “you’re not getting the whole story” argument is huge cop out. When a 15 year old girl is beaten by an officer when she is already detained, we don’t need to know the rest of the story. She could be a serial rapist murderer, and that conduct still wouldn’t be acceptable.

  2. Weird how the quoted piece doesn’t mention the punch to her jaw before she was shoved into the corner. Did they honestly miss that?

  3. Um, exactly at what point does the citizenry put its collective foot down and take back law enforcement from the thugs that currently dominate it?

  4. “Whole story” ? What *&(^-ing whole story is she referring to? The one where some dickless cop totally over-reacted to what a child said to him and proceeded to beat her silly?

  5. And she wasn’t even wearing shorts.

    He says that the shoe hit him in the shin, which caused him pain and suffering. The other officer in the video says the girl was “real lippy”, which I guess makes anything they do to her ok. If you click through you learn more interesting facts about the nice officer and his two officer-involved shootings ad his DWI.

    I am in a tizzy because when I first read “Kings County” I thought it was Brooklyn and that I could go down to Borough Hall and make some noise about this. Seattle too far away.

  6. That is really disturbing. That girl posed absolutely zero threat to those officers. He could have just shut the door. It seems that her kicking her shoes off was just something a bratty, arrested teenager would do, it wasn’t dangerous and doesn’t warrant that kind of violent reaction from the police.

    Even if there is some justification for this, that is not shown in the tape (which I highly doubt), do we really want the type of person who would punch a handcuffed 15 year old in the back of the head enforcing the law?

    Sad. He deserves to lose his badge and gain some prison time.

  7. Then there’s this from Cleveland that I saw recently:

    “Woman Who Called for Help Assaulted By Police; Police Suing TV Station that Exposed Them”
    http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/9049

    I understand that this is not representative of all cops. But I have to wonder how much more they would get away with without constant video coverage of it.

  8. Two observations-

    1-the second cop throws her other shoe out the door without looking

    2-a cop comes in after and checks the walls and floor for blood? face marks?

  9. Just this weekend, a retired police captain relative of mine said “criminals just have too many rights these days”. He went on to explain that back in the 60’s they openly beat or “whooped” troublemakers instead of actually arresting and giving them due process. Apparently this worked better back then. I left the room at that point. 10 minutes earlier, he was suggesting that we call Obama “Osama”, instead.

  10. Viewing this video again, it seems pretty obvious that the second cop realized that this monkey was out of control. For the love of humanity and out of respect for the law, I hope that cop testifies against this ass.

  11. I can’t find any contact info for Paul Sheen anywhere online. Can anyone else find anything? I feel like as an outraged citizen I’m well within my rights to mail this douche bag a piece of my shit every week for the rest of one of our lives.

  12. Seriously? More to the story? I think the video shows it all, a cop violently overreacting to a teenager’s attitude. Sure, she kicks her shoe out into the hall. Maybe it even hits the cop. But to come flying into the holding cell and beat her, throw her down on the concrete by her hair? Roid rage much?

    No, the whole story is there. please make an example of this guy. He doesn’t deserve to wear that badge.

  13. He says that the shoe in the shin caused him pain and suffering, but when you watch the video as he is throwing her into the corner, he hits his shin on the metal toilet. I’m not doctor, but I’m willing to bet that smacking his shin against the metal toilet did more damage than a sneaker

  14. I have not watched the video, as I find watching people being brutalized very disturbing, especially when they’re very young.

    I agree with arnodick that beating a prisoner is unacceptable even if she’s a serial rapist murderer.

    However, even if the COP is a serial rapist murderer in addition to being a brutal thug who beats teenage girls without pause or qualm, he’s entitled to a fair trial with an impartial jury (justice is in the hands of those who administer it, and independent of the quality, or lack of same, of its subject).

    Therefore the argument that the jury pool might be tainted beyond the point where an impartial jury can be selected is one the court must consider carefully. Once everyone in the community has seen the video, the trial will have to take place out of town, which also isn’t good for the community.

    I agree that public opinion should be inflamed against thug cops who shouldn’t be wearing the badge, but there are other concerns for the well-being of the community here. I dearly hope that cop will be put on trial at some point, and it’s better for the community if the gallery is full of its citizens, watching justice be done. Moving it far away because it’s the only way to get an impartial jury makes it hard for ordinary citizens to attend the trial.

  15. I’m not sure which scares me more. The fact that the officers were capable of this or the fact that they were stupid enough to do in front of a camera? How’s the rest of their decision making process I wonder?

  16. I guess next time the sheriff should make sure that they videotape the part of the story where the girl turns into a werewolf wearing a bomb vest.

  17. So, after reading the story, there is more to it and none of it mitigating to the officer’s defense. Moreover this particular precinct in King County has had numerous problems with their officers. 15 year olds who are arrested for whatever – shoplifting to solicitation are going to be “lippy” – what does the cop expect? A warm chocolate chip cookie? There is no call for that violence he perpetrated and he had better be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Amazing to me the paramedic who looked the young gal over didn’t take her to the hospital – just reinforces a sad suspicion that law enforcement and emergency personnel also have a implied pact of secrecy together. Last thing – this just really bothers me – that young gal is somebodies daughter! If you were her father, how would you feel? I have a thirteen year old daughter myself.
    There is another issue here – courts and the justice system are going to have to learn to deal with the ubiquity of closed circuit cameras – I’m surprised they haven’t already. Stupid cop!

  18. the comments found on this website illustrate perfectly what the cops feared. inflamed public opinion on something they neither understand or care to understand.

    little did you know that not only was she a rampant pedophile but also a narcotics distributor. she has destroyed lives and terrorized hundreds more.

    the police officers sense of justice simply overwhelmed him. you would have done the same, except he was able to show remarkable restraint, which i assure you all that non of you would have been able to do.

    you should all be ashamed of your selfs

  19. Also, when cop #2 throws the second shoe out into the hallway at the end of the video- it’s a good thing it didn’t hit another cop! Because, pain and suffering would have resulted, and so he would have gotten the shit kicked out of him.

  20. And there were 97 other videos remarkably similar to this one which you are never going to see.

  21. See this is why castration should be legal.

    Anyone with a badge that is THIS violent against an underage female offender should have his shit chopped off.

    I wonder how that bastard would like it if someone did that to his daughter.

    Accck. So friggin disgusted.

  22. In case you didn’t know, she was following orders. It is standard procedure to have someone in a holding cell remove their shoes, belt, etc. so they can’t hurt themselves or create mischief. If the officer had been struck by the shoe, it was on video, and they could have just filed assault charges on her.

  23. Not ashamed, Hawley.
    First, cite your source.

    Second, regardless of what she is charged with, she gets fair treatment by the police. That is the trust they uphold. They guarantee the safety of people in their custody. They do not get to dole out punishment. Ever. They really don’t. This prisoner is like any other, and they can’t pick and choose how to treat people. She wasn’t a threat to them in this situation, so self-defense isn’t an excuse.

  24. I’ve worked 911,volunteer ambulance, and Vol. fire; and would like to point out that no matter WHAT that girl did there is NO justification for the actions of that deputy. If you take the job you WILL be required to deal with people who are not in the best of moods or presentations, and if you can’t control yourself, or think of yourself as above the ‘citizen’ then you are definitely NOT law enforcement material.
    This isn’t just a random occurrence either. Incidences like these and worse, happen daily across the nation, with some being exposed and others never to find the light of day. I’ve seen cops who I’d call relentless altruists and some who’ve horrified me by their antics while on patrol. This is rampant in law enforcement and prisons (and the military… remember BLACKWATER!).
    Unfortunately my recent experiences showed no changes and in fact seemed to indicate a rise in brutality and a bizarre feeling that the cops considered themselves “smarter” than the public, which they percieved as a license to play judge, jury, and executioner. I still wonder if this wasn’t a reaction to similar attitudes manifested in the Bush administration (ie: yes, what i’m doing is illegal, but its for YOUR good).

    That deputy should not only be removed immediately but also taken up on charges for assault and battery on a minor.

  25. the truth is anyone can be goaded to do something outrageous. Maybe his wife just left him, his dog died and his pick-up broke down. We all have a story. Thing is, that’s when you take a leave or resign and find new work – if you are a responsible human being. Police carry the power of life and death on their belt and the licence to use it on their chests. They are held to a higher standard, or should be. This particular man knows this well, he has killed before.

  26. @#23
    Show us your sources. What you say carries no weight whatsoever without sources.
    Also, even if the girl was a pedophile and a drug pusher, I still would not react the way the cop in the video does. I’m sorry,but I don’t get on the bandwagon that says pedophiles (or drug pushers) are not people, and thus should be treated like Nazis treated the Jews.

  27. Good thing he didn’t have a taser. That’s typically what uncreative law enforcement officials reach for when things don’t go their way immediately.

  28. here’s an idea: any police who kills in the line of duty must immediately resign. No pension penalty, some allowance for finding new work, but that’s it. One bite, once. A career-ender for a life-ender. That would make cops very careful and crooks very afraid.

  29. So, this video will effect the deputy’s right to a fair trial? Wouldn’t the video be shown during the course of the trial anyway? When I served jury duty they asked if any of us had a bias against the police, and many of the prospective jurors raised their hands and were then asked to leave.

  30. Having been spent some quality time with the police in my own youth, it is normal procedure for police to demand detainees remove their shoes before being put in a holding cell.
    Presumably, they demanded she remove her shoes, right before they jumped her.

    Btw
    i would say she flipped her shoe off.

    THIS is kicking a shoe off!

  31. How many of you who find this offensive are going to go out and become police officers in order to make sure that the job gets done properly?

  32. I am just imagining what the rest of the history could be to justify this:

    Maybe she killed all the people inside the PD and tried to run towards this cell, when she saw the heroic police officer she tried to kill him with her evil shoe of mass destruction, but the agile cop managed to punch and kick her in order save the world from this deadly adolescent.

    Yeah, that sounds plausible!

  33. I saw the girl’s father on one of the morning talk shows. He was remarkably calm (I know I wouldn’t be if it were my daughter getting beaten up) and said that person shouldn’t be a police officer.
    What, are these cops pissed because Obama won the election, so they’re taking it out on teenaged black girls?
    pigs.

  34. “…it will inflame public opinion and will severely impact the deputy’s right to a fair trial.”

    Funny you never hear that defense used when civilians are caught doing something on video. When we have a separate set of rights for uniformed personnel, the whole system is flawed. Nothing could justify this response. When we get his address, lets start mailing him all our old shoes (the stinkier the better!)

  35. #36 Cupcake Faerie:

    I think #23 Hawley is being sarcastic. Pedophile drug pushers that terrorize hundreds are not typically 15-year-old girls.

    In case after case, it has been shown that cops are bullies; they are *trained* to be, in order to “protect” themselves.

    This is not very enlightened of me, knowing that the police force is a societal safeguard, but only one comment springs to mind after seeing this video: “fucking pigs.”

  36. @#36

    I dunno, sounds like you took the flame bait and invoked godwin’s law all in one go.

  37. @40, not. Bad police work is the symptom, not the cause. All the good cops in the world wouldn’t stop bad cops from happening.

    Higher wages and stricter requirements for acceptance into police academy is the answer. Cops now are low-paid high school dropouts, what do we expect to happen.

    Now, how about somebody do something really productive and dig up some contact info for Deputy Sheriff Paul Sheen, King County, Seatlle, Washington.

    1. beekone,

      Although I sympathize with your desire to feed the officer into a wood chipper, we don’t allow contact information for the purposes of harassing individuals.

      1. Hawley is engaging in irony and hyperbole.

        Please restrain your use of the word ‘pig’ to the officer in question.

  38. @JimH and @Cupcake Faerie:
    I’m fairly certain Hawley was kidding. I know it’s hard to tell on the internet, but come on. You weren’t tipped off by the line “he was able to show remarkable restraint”?

    And for anybody who didn’t follow the link to the actual article, the girl was apparently arrested while in her parent’s car with another 15 year old girl (the other girl was driving). The car had been reported stolen, and the fact that two 15 year olds were driving around with no headlights at 3:45 in the morning was pretty worthy of getting arrested. But not even close to hate inducing.

  39. good one Nehpetse! That’s an old chimpira yakuza trick, done with geta. Half a kilo of hardwood in the face at point blank range.

  40. I’m trying to think what larger context could justify this amount of force. Maybe she’s on PCP and has had lots of ninja training, so two police (each weighing 50% more than her) knew they could only subdue her with a lot of force. The part of the story that we didn’t see was the girl taking down three dozen deputies out in the hall with both arms tied behind her back. Coming next season on Naruto.

    I hear radical anarchists claim that we can get along better in a society without jails or prisons or police, and it sounds absurdly utopian. (Cf The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin.) Then you see a video like this, or Oscar Grant getting shot in the back, the police departments inevitably defending their hometeam thugs, and the argument sounds a lot less absurd.

  41. I am hoping that #23 is being ironic. Is it even possible for a 15 year old to be a pedophile? Wouldn’t she just be a pede?

    I love Charles Stross’ idea of a copcam that is with them every second they are on duty. Anything they do or say while on duty should be a moment of accountability. Some qualifications for the undercover, of course.

  42. Phikus, I agree with your point, but evidence in a crime is withheld from the public before trial all the time, for exactly this reason.

    Also, I object to the idea of sending shoes to this guy. That would undermine the supply of shoes to be sent to the George W. Bush Library!

  43. Some commenter said she was a rampant peadophile and had destroyed lives.

    Is it possible for a 15 year old gear to be a peado? How many lives could she have destroyed.

    The cop was a schmuck who got a kick out of (he thought) legally mauling a young girl. I hope he gets fired. If anybody in any other occupation did this they wouldn’t be just fired they would have to pay damages or face some criminal charges.

  44. #37, you made a scary sort of Freudian slip. “This is rampant in law enforcement and prisons (and the military… remember BLACKWATER!).”

    Blackwater is not officially military. This is rampant in law enforcement, prisons, official military, as well as mercenaries like Blackwater.

  45. Brother Provisional, you don’t have to be a carpenter to point out a broken chair.

    Maybe you’ll have more luck as an apologist on sites where people think less.

  46. Good thing she wasn’t Tasered in the back! Bad joke but this is not a laughing matter.

    I am very appreciative of the fact that MOST law enforcement officers display incredible restraint (which they should at all times anyway) in the face of behavior that would easily push most people over the edge. I see this is my neighborhood all the time.

    However, the MANY times we have to witness yet another “cop” lose his shit because he had a bad day is just appalling. I know, we’re all human, but the consequence that someone who is in custody for everyone’s protection gets hurt or abused in the process is downright unacceptable.

  47. I know! She’s a teen terminator, sent by Skynet to kill John Connor! The cop had no choice! He was saving the world!

    No, huh? Me neither.

  48. there is a problem with demanding higher admittance standards for new police. The old guard. First rate people hire first rate people, second rate people hire third rate people. Heard of geographic profiling? A bit of thought and some software and this cop came up with a way to track and predict serial offenders. Got run out of the local force by the neanderthals in charge who didn’t like bright boys and went international. The existing police culture still revolves around the Blue Wall.
    This particular clown is going to be reviled not for beating up a kid but for getting caught and making the rest look bad. I no longer buy the old reasons and excuses. Yes, it’s hard, yes few want to do it, yes cops are only human, etc. We have left many other social evils behind (and yes I think society is better today), why not this one? Police reform is overdue, where is the new prophet? Why couldn’t it be a policeman?

  49. above and beyond all the has been said thus far, the story describes him as 6’2, 195 pounds. how much does she weigh? 110? 120? maybe 5’5? how in god’s name, or anyone’s name for that matter, could she possibly pose a threat enough to warrant a severe beating?

    by no stretch of the imagination or logic itself is this piece of shit not guilty. i’m thoroughly disgusted by this.

  50. Cops, meh.
    How many of these videos must we see before something is done to prevent this? Apparently cops in this country can now dish out punative judgement when they see fit.
    F them.

  51. CHEN: Joining us now for an exclusive interview, Malika Calhoun and her father, Curtiss. Good morning to you both.

    MALIKA CALHOUN, POLICE BEATING VICTIM: Good morning.

    CHEN: Malika, let me begin with you. What do you remember about the beating?

    M. CALHOUN: I remember the way he just came in after I kicked my shoe off, and we were arguing back and forth all night since the arrest happened. And just…

    CHEN: What were you arguing about back and forth all night?

    M. CALHOUN: Just the way he was talking to me, and we were just, I don’t know, he just had an attitude…

    CHEN: Which was how?

    M. CALHOUN: … with everything.

    CHEN: How was he talking to you when he arrested you?

    M. CALHOUN: He was being — just talking about us in rude ways, making rude comments about things, like, oh, you guys steal cars, and it wasn’t

    — technically, we didn’t steal the car. We were just borrowing my friend’s mom’s car without permission. We used it without permission.

    CHEN: And then what was the exchange going on between you and the officer in the cell during the beating?

    M. CALHOUN: He first, when he first came in, where I kicked the shoe off at him, and I was about to take my other one off, he said, you know, it’s assaulting an officer. And that’s when he charged in and started beating me. And I was yelling. I was like, this isn’t — I’m not resisting. I’m not resisting. And he said, whether you’re resisting or not, that was assault.

    Then he just kept doing it and kept going and going.

    CHEN: Why did you kick the shoe off at him?

    M. CALHOUN: Because my arms were folded, and I was upset with the way he was talking to me. And I was talking back to him. And I just took it off. And I was ready to take off my other shoe, and then that’s what happened.

    CHEN: Did the shoe hit him?

    M. CALHOUN: No, it didn’t hit him at all. I was standing in the inside of the door, and he was standing holding the door open. Didn’t hit him, and he was saying that it made blood pockets and stuff, and it didn’t even hit him at all.

    CHEN: Tell me about the beating. How hard was it?

    M. CALHOUN: It was horrible, like my head hit the wall when he first came in and kicked me. And then my head hit the wall in the back. And then he kept — threw me to the ground, was pulling my hair constantly.

    And it was just horrible.

    CHEN: Were you screaming for him to stop?

    M. CALHOUN: Yes. I said, I’m not resisting. I’m not resisting.

    CHEN: And what did he say?

    M. CALHOUN: He didn’t say anything back until after, when I was like, I didn’t resist. And he said, well, it was still assaulting an officer.

    CHEN: Curtiss, let me turn to you. This video’s so difficult to watch. What did you think the first time you saw it?

    CURTISS CALHOUN, FATHER OF POLICE BEATING VICTIM: I didn’t see it the first time until Friday evening, when I got home from work, and it was very disturbing. I didn’t know it was this severe of an assault.

    CHEN: What do you want to see happen to this officer? He’s currently on administrative leave. If he’s found guilty, he could spend one year behind bars. What do each of you want to see happen to this officer?

    Curtiss?

    C. CALHOUN: As far as what happens to him, I wouldn’t like to see him work as a police officer anymore. I don’t think that’s the job for him, based on the way he reacted. Dealing with people, I don’t think he can respond that way and still be an officer.

    CHEN: Malika, in the last five seconds, what do you want to see happen to him?

    M. CALHOUN: I just want to — I don’t know — justice. I don’t want this to happen to anyone else.

    CHEN: Malika and Curtiss Calhoun, thank you.

    M. CALHOUN: Thank you.

  52. The remarkable thing is that the incriminating videotape didn’t just “disappear”. I take that to mean that the cop in question isn’t much liked by his fellow officers.

  53. Xopher: Not always. How many times have we seen convenience store video, or a parking lot beating leak out before trial? And what would be so bad about the trial taking place in another town? An out of town jury might be more impartial anyway, not knowing the locals.

    Surely w’s library is not keeping those shoes, besides, there’s two to every pair, right?

    And whatever happened to waiting for the other shoe to fall?

    Lastly, if “it’s what she does, it’s all she does!” then I think she would have handed it to both of them and we’d have a much more entertaining, if disturbing video (but I would not have shed a tear in this case.)

  54. @48, phikus: Funny you never hear that defense used when civilians are caught doing something on video.

    Actually, you hear that all the time. Lawyers argue against releasing evidence to the public/media pre-trial for regular folks just as much as they do for police (at least, good lawyers do). Generally, *all* lawyers prefer to have jury members coming into a case without any preconceived notions about the guilt of the defendent, reagardless of how blatantly guilty they actually are.

  55. @PhilipB
    Not stupid: arrogant.
    This sort of thing is coming to light up and down the country, and this is what the evidence seems to point to: as far as he’s concerned, the camera doesn’t matter, because he’s a cop, and can therefore do whatever he wants. If any cop-hater dares to complain about it, then his buddies are duty-bound to lie, cheat, and do whatever else it takes to get him off the hook.
    As someone said in (I think) the Oscar Grant discussion, a growing number of police officers are acting like an occupying army instead of defenders of the public peace. 200 years ago, you kicked us out for treating our own people like property to be beaten into submission, and wrote a constitution dedicated to preventing a repeat of such abuses, yet somehow, despite the thousands of dedicated public public servants wearing a badge, this scum’s behaviour is not the slightest bit surprising.

  56. Obviously they realized that this girl’s shoes were actually a two-part explosive compound. If the second shoe had come in contact with the first, there would have been an Earth-shattering Kaboom. Luckily, these fine officers were able to stop just such an occurence from happening.

    Or someone’s just an asshole.

  57. #31 Zawan

    See this is why castration should be legal.

    No one else had a problem with this comment?

    Zawan.. this guy just beat a girl because she did some petty, disproportionate thing. Now you want to castrate a man for losing his temper and landing a couple of blows? Disproport much?

    Don’t read me as minimising the utter-piece-of-shit this man is, he needs to lose his job and be charged, but castration?

    No. No. No.

  58. The problem with police isn’t that every cop is bad..

    The problem is that 1% of police officers are like this, 98% cover for them, and only 1% ever stand up for what is right.

  59. No, I wasn’t saying it’s always that way. I was saying it happens frequently, and often for incriminating video of non-cops.

    The problem with taking the trial to another town is that the people who live where it happened have a harder time attending the trial. If they attend the trial, they see all the evidence on both sides, and if the cop is acquitted they’ll have a shot at understanding why. On the other hand, if he’s convicted they’ll have seen justice done, and report it to others.

    I’ve been on the jury for a criminal case, and let me tell you, being there is NOTHING like hearing about it from the press. Newspaper reporters never write (or if they do, their editors never print) “This case was total bullshit and the prosecution should be ashamed of themselves for even bringing it” the way they should have in the case I jurored.

    In the case here, do you think a police-beat reporter will have guts enough to say that this guy deserved to have the book thrown at him, even if everyone in the courtroom except the guy himself agrees that that was the case?

    I don’t understand your last paragraph, but I want to. Could you explain? I’m guessing your quoted phrase is an idiom with which I’m not familiar.

  60. @62,
    I totally understand, but if someone has posted the info or if anyone reading this knows the contact info, could you please email it to me at noah@drawnbymouse.com? Thanks, really appreciate it.

  61. This is the most disgusting thing I have ever seen my entire life. I just lost faith in humanity a little. Sad.

  62. This is horrifying, and unfortunately not surprising in its brutality. At the end there, am I seeing this righ? Is it standard operating procedure to pick up a restrained prisoner by the hair?

  63. Xopher, I thought that was a lift from Johnson but I’d read it about 15 years ago. On looking it up I find that it’s actually a perversion of Johnson: “You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables.”

    In any case, the wit & perception are his.

    And yeah, this cop is obviously in the wrong line of work.

  64. Hooray for video cameras as long as they can be used by the powerless as well as the powerful. The powerful have more to lose, as in this case.

    The problem is the powerful are also better at keeping the powerless away from the controls. Perhaps the Internet and cell phone cameras will help mediate this. As long as both “sides” have the ability to surveil each other, just society will survive.

    BTW, I agree that posting this video on the Internet was kind of a dick move, but what the hell; it’s not just going to inflame the public, I’m pretty sure it’s going to inflame the impartial jury, too.

  65. Yes…this is a terrible thing, and that officer should be fired (and in fact is being charged). But how does that turn into all this hatred pointed at every officer? Just because there are a few bad cops does not mean all officers are like this. In fact, this tape seems to prove that there are some good ones out there, otherwise wouldn’t this evidence have been just conveniently “lost” or “misplaced”?

    For every jerk like this on the police force, there are dozens if not hundreds of great cops that would lay down their lives to prevent things like this from happening.

    This (mostly) unjustified hatred of police in general is ignorant and self-destructive.

    Go out and meet some of your local policemen and policewomen…surprise! You will find that they are pretty nice folks who perform a very difficult, sometimes deadly job. Surprise again, most of them serve with honor, dedication and a high set of ethics.

  66. ROSSINDETROIT: IMHO, if *all* of those being watched are aware of it, and *none* of those that are being watched have any control over the tapes, then CCTV good.

    Regrettably, it is very common that neither of these are true. In which case, CCTV bad.

    In the UK, the public can no longer take any photographic record of policemen. I haven’t read the law involved, but wonder if they could use it to prevent release of such footage from their own CCTV, too.

  67. Cupcake Faerie @24:

    Amazing to me the paramedic who looked the young gal over didn’t take her to the hospital – just reinforces a sad suspicion that law enforcement and emergency personnel also have a implied pact of secrecy together.

    Not the emergency personnel I know. They can’t. If they’re seen as being in cahoots with the police, their patients won’t tell them the truth about critical information like what drugs they’ve taken, how much alcohol they’ve had, and how long ago did this injury happen.

    Brother Provisional @45, what’s that got to do with the price of tea in China?

    TheMadCreator and others — please don’t give JimH @36 a hard time for thinking Hawley was serious. I wasn’t entirely sure myself, the first time I read it.

    We have a long history in Civil Liberties threads of people claiming it was the victim’s fault, they were obviously dangerous, security personnel just doing their job, et cetera.

    There are accurate parodies and over-the-top parodies. Hawley’s was the accurate kind.

  68. Pecoto 90: See Jonathan V at #80.

    Do you really think there are dozens and hundreds who would lay down their lives to keep this from happening? So the fact that the second cop here doesn’t do that is just one of those wildly improbable coincidences? If they’re willing to lay down their lives, why aren’t they (usually) willing to testify?

    Or perhaps you think this sort of thing is extremely rare. Unfortunately, I don’t think it is.

  69. “would badge and gun cameras have prevented this?”

    no protection measures will prevent every instance of every abuse. but if the atmosphere the police were operating within was one of “every bad thing we do can and will be released to the public.” then yes. It could have prevented this.

    the cop here probably wasn’t counting on the camera footage as something that could be used against him, or he wasn’t considering it as part of the equation.

    then again maybe he just snapped. but if you can find a catch all from stopping people from snapping then let me know.

  70. @85,
    I don’t want to send my poo-sticks to the police department, just to the rogue cop that likes to slam suspects’ heads into cell walls.

  71. Am I asking too much to think that whoever is responsible for that officer would actually encourage the release of this video so that he could efficiently get rid of his piece of filth cop? You don’t hide rotten apples in the back of the crisper – you toss them. Attempting to suppress this video just makes me lose faith in the whole policing institution instead of just that one nut.

  72. Pecoto,
    That may be true, but this has been one of the most balanced cop threads in recent memory. Most people are directing their hate at the cop in the video.

    People are disgusted by the acts in the video, they are venting. There have been some generalisations, but all easily balanced by others commentors talking in a pretty reasonable tone from both sides.

    For every jerk like this on the police force, there are dozens if not hundreds of great cops that would lay down their lives to prevent things like this from happening.

    But, honestly, how many of them would have broken ranks to accuse a fellow officer and press charges, if they had witnessed this episode and it had gone unreported?

  73. Y’know…this whole “shouldn’t release the video because it’ll inflame the public” line is utter bullshit.

    Ever watch you local news? Funny how the police are always eager to release video when it’s to their benefit, isn’t it?

  74. NO excuse for beating up a minor, a girl at that. I expect more from the officers given that they should expect worse people than this girl on their job. The girl is already in custody, so I don’t see how it would be wise for her to assault an officer. And her having her hands folded just shows she is not in any way intending serious injury.

    I would understand if the police reacted in instinct, but after he hit her and pushed her to the wall, then continued beating her and pulling her hair; that is clearly some serious power tripping.

  75. When I saw this video on CNN I got so infuriated that I started shaking/trembling,I don’t see what could have cause this idiot to do this to a 15 year old girl, I would kinda understand if it was towards a male and much older more because he could actually be a threat to the sheriff and cause harm to him but a little 15 year old girl come on man,well he better be fired and serve jail time cause if he doesn’t i will go kick his A$* myself Damn and they wonder why cops have such a bad rap.

  76. Here’s contact info for the King County Sheriff’s Office, in case you have anything to say to them.

    King County Sheriff’s Office
    516 Third Avenue , Room W-150
    Seattle, WA 98104-2312
    sheriff@kingcounty.gov

  77. I’ve been arrested a time or two and saw six cops take a skinheads boots off of him. He provoked the whole thing telling them they would need more than six to get his boots. That incident was nowhere near as brutal as what I just saw on this tape.

  78. probably did snap. But that lead to things like the BART shooting. Police culture has to be reformed so fewer do snap. Maybe longer vacations (and less money)? Rotate everyone so they only get a few months of the year on the street? Fire the dinosaur bosses. More independent public oversight (no police investigating police).

  79. I don’t get how “the whole story” could possibly justify this reaction, but I suspect that it would completely disappoint anyone hoping to defend the officer’s actions.

  80. I dont understand, why are you so outraged? This is Police 101 in US from what I have seen on Cops. Not a single episode in last few seasons without arrest/detention ending with 3 officers tackling nonviolent person to the ground, screams tazers blood broken noses and all that.

    Btw I love how just few days ago US State Department released “2008 Human Rights Report: Poland” describing Poland as a bottom of a barrel armpit of the world when it comes to Prisons, Police, Judical System, Corruption and Privacy. All that comming from blank wiretaps Guantanamo crazy children beaters Police assrape prisons nation.

    I am grad Police in Europe is still able to just talk with you.

  81. Ryan Waddell@75: Actually, I have only really heard it in defense of law enforcement officers. Maybe it’s that they are more connected with lawyers or know the law more than most of us civilians. Please provide a citation as I only seem to see video withheld when cops are caught in the act. And as has been noted in other comments above, such evidence is far more likely to disappear too, since the blue wall tends to protect its own “for the good of the force.”

    Sure the cop deserves a fair trial, but when, as an officer sworn to enforce the law, he disregarded her right to not get the living shit beat out of her in his custody, it seems to me he waived his right not to be exposed as the asshat he appears to be. What kind of a hair trigger must he be on to react so quickly to a kicked-off shoe? What a custodian of peace he must be to let a joy-riding teen wind him up like that. Some people want to abuse what they cannot touch, and look for any excuse. It is the same violent domination urge that is behind rape. It seems to me that only the small penis needs the gun, abuses the badge, or wields overwhelming force to verbal coercion.

    Only by such things getting released to the public at large is there going to be a chance of anything being done about the root causes for such treatment of folks under the care of law enforcement.

    And yes, I have a good friend who is applying to become a cop, so hopefully he will be one of the good ones.

    Xopher: I was continuing your analogy by quoting the original Terminator.

    I have reported several times but never been picked for a jury. I think they have a problem (at least here in Texas) with guys with long hair, as I never disqualified myself.

  82. Oh, Phikus, of course! DUH on me.

    Especially if she’s the mimetic alloy kind. He beats her for a while, then *snick* and his head rolls across the floor. MUCH more fun to watch!

    In a movie, I mean.

  83. Oh my GOD! I don’t care what she did/said prior to this, she kicked a shoe, she wasn’t actually near him, he could have just slammed the door shut and punched a wall or something, I respect most cops but this guy – he looks like a total hothead.

  84. Surveillance is just another form of technology, another tool. It is not good or bad in itself, but it can be used for good (as in this case) or bad things.

    While it is easy to conceive of a tool that is easier to use for bad than for good, I do not think cameras fit into this category.

    Let’s consider the following:
    The officer chose to do this, knowing full well that he was within view of the CCTV camera.
    It is reasonable to assume that he thought that he could get a colleague to erase the recording.
    Unfortunately for the dickhead, the colleague apparently disagreed. This proves that there are some crimes police won’t protect each other for.
    The pig and his colleague obviously had different ideas about how far it was OK to go.

    So that brings us to the question of how far this asshole would have gone if there was no camera in the room.

    Would he have been more violent?

    Before you answer, take a look at this:

  85. I was making the point that CCTV cameras are a double edged sword. They’re used to scrutinize the public activities of innocent people. That subject comes up frequently on BB. Without surveillance cams there would undoubtedly be much more of what we just saw above. I’m against the wholesale installation of video cams, but seeing a video which is the only support of a minor’s charge of assault against a cop makes me think there are places where we could stand a whole lot more of them.

  86. here’s how I see it: a police system and culture has grown up over time to what it is today. Those in it and operating it know what they are doing. They are correct when they say they know better than the public how to handle it.

    However: what it delivers, is not what the public needs or wants.

    Police collectively have to accept this. The public has to step and loudly declare what they want and then provide the resources to make it so.

    Outrage over incident after incident now made even more public by video and the web is a starting point. It makes it undeniable that something is broken. It also creates enough of a critical mass of public base to realize reform.
    Something different is happening now. There has always been film evidence of police brutality for as long as their has been film. Just recently are police becoming aware that the instant global distribution of evidence is a fact and they can no longer cover up or ignore errors and misconduct. Note in a recent spectacularly public case of misconduct resulting in death (the killing by taser of a Polish immigrant at Vancouver International Airport) that the police involved (RCMP) had just before sent around policy warnings of being caught on video by the public. The scramble by police at the BART shooting to confiscate video evidence from the public shows this lesson has permeated North America at least (though you can find evidence throughout the world of similar mentality with a quick google – see Scottish incident I referenced above). Police have to accept the fact they can no longer operate behind the curtain in free countries. If they do not, the next step will be violent reaction for violence. Some radical shift must occur and it must come from the coming generation of police and from a public that wants change and is willing to do the work for it.

    Much of the friction comes from enforcement of bad laws. Police have to campaign against bad laws too. Sitting back, smirking and maintaining that “they’ll see, it’s going to be just like it has always been” is a recipe for violent disaster. Things ARE different now. Human stupidity and violence may be eternal, but we do have control over how we run our society, if not our nature.

  87. “What, are these cops pissed because Obama won the election…?”

    Not just some cops. You don’t want to know just how pissed off a few million racists are!

    I’m scared.

  88. “Maybe longer vacations (and less money)?”

    Longer vacations, probably, depending on the assignment. Less money, not so sure. The problem with reducing compensation would be the same as it always is, namely that it reduces the talent pool and lowers the bar. If you want better people to be cops, you’re going to have to offer them something. (And that also includes not spitting on anyone and everyone who makes that choice.)

    On the other hand, cops in some places are ridiculously overpaid. Cops in the suburbs around NYC literally make several times what the NYPD does, which is ridiculous on a number of different levels…

  89. Oooh!! I have a bunch of ad homs, smart ass posts that I can’t decide on so… I’ll do them all. Ready?

    1) Someone cue up “Now you’re a man” by DVDA.

    2) The cop’s internal monologue was:
    A: LOVE ME DADDY, WHY DON’T YOU LOVE ME!!
    B: I’m not gay, I’m not gay, I’m not gay…
    C: Foreplay.

    3) She flung her shoe? She’s with the terrorists!

  90. Oh, whoops, I see the HufPo also embedded the vid. I just have flashblock on so I didn’t spot it…

  91. OK, make being a cop one of the most highly paid jobs in the country. Then set and enforce standards so hard and sharp that only the elite survive. Will it work?

  92. what do we want our police to be? Armed guards? Jailers? Human enough to interpret law to circumstances? Baby-sitters? Robots? Mummy and Daddy? Samurai? Soldiers? Gangsters?Life guards? Security guards of property? Vigilantes? What?

    Put aside what people who are or want to be police want for a moment, just this question:

    What do the people want from their police?

  93. Takuan: Add the gun and badge cameras that produce a live feed to a public website that can’t be turned off and you might just have something.

  94. Make being a police officer a respectable thing and things would get better… but it’s easy to speculate.

  95. “Cops now are low-paid* high school dropouts, what do we expect to happen.”

    Last I checked, starting salary for a police officer in my city is around $50K a year, which is way more than I make as an academic librarian with 2 Master’s degrees, fine thank you very much.

    If I were in better physical shape, enough to pass the police academy PT test, I’d consider a career change…

    I hope this guy’s days with the police force are numbered.

    “If you run the tape backwards, we help Rodney King get up and send him on his way.”
    –Bill Hicks, mimicking police Officer testimony in the King case.

  96. The original post is inaccurate and misleading. The girl and her parents have not yet filed an official complaint, the video was discovered by another officer investigating her grand theft auto case, who brought it to the attention of supervisors. Schene is being charged with misdemeanor assault, and the video was released after his arraignment hearing, over the objections of Schene’s defense attorney, Anne Bremner.

    The King’s County Sherriff’s office is not attempting to protect Schene, and they did not object to releasing the video, as the main post inaccurately states.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/401779_schene28.html

  97. Come on every one, can’t you see what a STUDLY -MAN-(?) he is. It takes a lot of strength to beat up a 15 year old girl. Why I bet when he walks by, women, children and small farm animals tremble in fear!

  98. jonathan@80: The problem is that 1% of police officers are like this, 98% cover for them, and only 1% ever stand up for what is right

    [citation needed]

  99. Woah! First off, I didn’t know she was black until I was reading the comments, the beating was bad enough, whatever her skin color. And, did anyone else notice that the FREAK officer takes her out of the room by her hair? OMG!! I know how painful it is to be beaten around the room like that by the hair and it really, really sucks! (But not at 15 and not by a police officer).
    BTW…Aren’t they supposed to be called “Peace Officers”…which would mean Officers of the Peace. Well, JEEZ! This guy is not very peaceful. I guess he deserves to keep his nuts (as someone else suggested he should lose them) but he shouldn’t be allowed to ever be a cop again or be around kids for a while.

    Oh yeah, p.s. Why the hell didn’t that other cop say anything and why did an entirely different detective have to be the one to report the video? The one who beats the girl is bad, bad, bad…but, are there going to charges for the officer that let it happen?

  100. Takuan: here’s how I see it: a police system and culture has grown up over time to what it is today. … However: what it delivers, is not what the public needs or wants.

    Well, I think you really ought to poll the public and compare what you think the public wants to what the public really wants. You think the Rush Limbaugh’s are complaining about this? You think the Bill O’Reilly’s are complaining about this? You think the people watching “24” are complaining about this behaviour?

    It isn’t like there is police culture and then there is public culture and these two develop independent of each other. The bad cops come from the same culture in the public that thinks you have to use torture to get information, that you have to suspend people’s rights to get justice.

    And then there is the segment of the population that thinks due process and human rights make us more secure. And some of them becomes cops too.

    You want to fix the bad cops? Fix the bad culture in the public that allows this sort of behaviour.

  101. flippin eck, that cop i hope is thrown to the masses for some righteous justice, what a big tough guy eh, he’s probably got no dick so he has to do this kind of thing to girls, its the only way he can get them to moan.

  102. For every jerk like this on the police force, there are dozens if not hundreds of great cops that would LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETH to prevent things like this from LEAKING OUT TO THE PUBLIC.

    Fixed your typo.
    Hope this helps!
    Have a nice day!

  103. With due respect to the Police Force, what we saw on this tape, is a complete disgrace to all Police Departments.

    This Pig who did that to that woman with no defense,should be brought to justice and disgraced for life, no wonder many Policemen are shot at sight in the line of duty.

    The Public should defend itself.
    If this happened in Sicily, that Pig would have been erased from the surface of earth, guaranteed.
    Shame on you and your whole department, even the second officer who witnessed the scene is guilty, because he didn’t try in any way to stop that sick fuck offender officer, he was enjoying the scene.
    Benito
    Calabria

  104. Did anyone else notice that there is about 7 minutes missing from the video? At about 1:03 of the video, the time code (upper right hand corner) skips forward 7 minutes and 10 seconds. Of course, it is between the time they took the girl out and before the officer comes back and inspects the room, so there is probably nothing to see. But still…

  105. Ugh. The whole video was disgusting, but for some reason it really got me at the end when the child is lying face down with her hands cuffed behind her and the officer pulls her to a standing position by a handful of her hair.

    And the worst part is, his punishment (if any) will be light.

  106. What’s it going to take to get someone to prosecute these cops? Seriously? All these cops running around rampant, brutalizing civilians and not a single one of them ever prosecuted for their criminal actions! How brutal does a guy have to be before the cop is prosecuted for criminal violations? What’s it going to take to get this guy brought up on criminal charges?

    What?

    He was?

    Oh, well, what about that BART cop, Johannes Mehserle? He should be arrested and charged with murder!

    What?

    He was?

    Well all cops are dirty anyway! Either they’re dirty, or they cover up for other dirty cops. And I really hate cops, so it must be true.

  107. Hopefully, he’ll get sent to jail, and a 450lb guy will toss HIM around like a little girl…

    then make him his wife xD

  108. Police beat up a teenage girl.
    Police saved a cat stuffed in a bong.
    The range of police work all in one day. Well done, BB.

  109. End the drug war. Slash the police force in half, put the money into education, treatment programs, and prison reform. Make it more difficult to get the job, and easier to lose it. Force the establishment of independent civilian review boards with full oversight.

    The police as we know them directly descend from Southern slave patrols. I don’t think it takes much more information to understand why dehumanization plays such a central role in the uniform’s treatment of “transgressors”, and why we as a society must treat this occupying army as a central obstacle to obtaining a true and just Democracy.

    No more prisons!

  110. Dewynken et al, I thought we all agreed a while ago that references to prison rape etc. weren’t welcome here since it frequently disguises bigotry against gay people and is insensitive as hell in any case.

  111. any ideas on how to break the DEA Cartel? They will have a new Capo di tutti i capi soon. If their iron grip could be shattered before they put out a hit on their latest nemesis, maybe progress could be made.

  112. I wouldn’t be surprised if he instructed her to kick the shoes out the door (have a bit of public school-related experience with games like that). He didn’t seem too surprised that she kicked off her shoe — he didn’t jump at all — and, in fact, there seemed to be a bit of delay, as if he was waiting for her to begin kicking off the other shoe.

  113. Is that helping?

    Depends on what you’re trying to “help”, I suppose.

    If you want to “help” the idea that all cops are either dirty or cover up for other dirty cops, then, no, the fact that of the three latest threads on BoingBoing about “dirty” cops, one thread was about a conviction of those cops, and the other two threads have charges brought against the cops, doesn’t really help the “all cops are dirty” meme.

    Was I suppose to be helping that meme?

    Certainly, BoingBoing and some of its readers can exhibit anarchistic tendancies. And “all cops are dirty” and “the system is broken” would be the sort of thing that an anarchist would say, even if the facts say otherwise. But in the face of all the anarchists shouting down with the broken system, I thought someone really ought to point out that at least in the last few threads, the system has been shown to actually be working. Bad cops are brought up on charges and convicted.

    In terms of “helping”, I thought I could help by pointing out that basic point.

    “Officer Friendly” has been brought up on charges.

  114. don’t start slagging anarchists or we’ll have to do a whole education piece on that too.

    First: why are there cops being brought up on charges in the first place?
    Second: is it a big problem? (I personally think so)
    Third: what are we going to do about it?

    You seem to be keep in the “all cops” thing going long past anyone else here. Time to move on.

  115. The thing that really gets me is that there’s no way he didn’t know the cells had video, so either:

    i) he felt safe beating up a teenage girl on video

    or

    ii) he was too out of control to give a damn about the consequences.

    Neither one of those possibilities does much to cheer me up.

  116. anyone posting phone numbers and other information with intent to incite harassment will be banned.

  117. @154 You aren’t an admin, all you can do is assume that will happen.

    #45 Asked who would sign up to be a cop just to make cops better people.

    I would.

    But would one morally upright person solve the problem? No. It’s a system-wide problem that I don’t have an answer for right now.

  118. My monocle fell into my martini about 10 seconds in.

    I somehow doubt any ‘whole story’ is going to excuse or explain the Street Fighter combo this guy pulled on an unarmed underage girl.

  119. That’s horrifying. From what I can see, the angle of the shoe- it doesn’t even look like it could have hit him hard at all. Even if he had, he’s a bloody officer!

    I hope this guy is married, and I hope his wife sees this tape, and I hope she’s a very large woman with a frying pan.

  120. Joshua 158: You aren’t an admin, all you can do is assume that will happen.

    Well, he’s an adjunct moderator. He does have some influence over the outcome, even if he doesn’t have the keys to the banning gun.

    Tenn 161: I hope this guy is married, and I hope his wife sees this tape, and I hope she’s a very large woman with a frying pan.

    I hope she’s a diminutive woman who, unbeknownst to him, has been taking martial arts training.

  121. “moral uprightness” is in fact the problem

    Neri in the space of five years became one of the most feared policemen on the New York City force. Also one of the most honest. But he had his own ways of enforcing the law. He hated punks and when he saw a bunch of young rowdies making a disturbance on a street comer at night, disturbing passersby, he took quick and decisive action. He employed a physical strength that was truly extraordinary, which he himself did not fully appreciate.

    One night in Central Park West he jumped out of the patrol car and lined up six punks in black silk jackets. His partner remained in the driver’s seat, not wanting to get involved, knowing Neri. The six boys, all in their late teens, had been stopping people and asking them for cigarettes in a youthfully menacing way but not doing anyone any real physical harm. They had also teased girls going by with a sexual gesture more French than American.

    Neri lined them up against the stone wall that closed off Central Park from Eighth Avenue. It was twilight, but Neri carried his favorite weapon, a huge flashlight. He never bothered drawing his gun; it was never necessary. His face when he was angry was so brutally menacing, combined with his uniform, that the usual
    punks were cowed. These were no exception.
    Neri asked the first youth in the black silk. jacket, “What’s your name?” The kid answered with an Irish name. Neri told him, “Get off the street. I see you again tonight, I’ll crucify you.” He motioned with his flashlight and the youth walked quickly away. Neri followed the same procedure with the next two boys. He let them
    walk off. But the fourth boy gave an Italian name and smiled at Neri as if to claim some sort of kinship. Neri was unmistakably of Italian descent. Neri looked at this youth for a moment and asked superfluously, “You Italian?” The boy grinned confidently.

    Neri hit him a stunning blow on the forehead with his flashlight. The boy dropped to his knees. The skin and flesh of his forehead had cracked open and blood poured down his face. But it was strictly a flesh wound. Neri said to him harshly,
    “You son of a bitch, you’re a disgrace to the Italians. You give us all a bad name. Get on your feet.” He gave the youth a kick in the side, not gentle, not too hard. “Get home and stay off the street. Don’t ever let me catch you wearing that jacket again either. I’ll send you to the hospital. Now get home. You’re lucky I’m not your father.” Neri didn’t bother with the other two punks. He just booted their asses down the Avenue, telling them he didn’t want them on the street that night.

    In such encounters all was done so quickly that there was no time for a crowd to gather or for someone to protest his actions. Neri would get into the patrol car and his partner would zoom it away. Of course once in a while there would be a real hard case who wanted to fight and might even pull a knife. These were truly unfortunate
    people. Neri would, with awesome, quick ferocity, beat them bloody and throw them into the patrol car. They would be put under arrest and charged with assaulting an officer.

    But usually their case would have to wait until they were discharged from the hospital.

  122. the Mafia came into being because poor people could get no justice from the police. The Yakuza in Japan have a similar history.

  123. Brave cop… we should all feel safer with heroes like him wearing badges and toting guns.

  124. There is one upside to this video: There’s obviously a good honest cop watching the security monitors for the cells who put this out for viewing.
    I’ve seen police in Britain go after crazed drunk guys and youths wielding knives and they were in no way as violent towards them as that guy was to an unarmed, teenage girl who was already locked up.
    And the police are right. He won’t get a fair trial. That privelege is reserved for human beings.

  125. @167, Paul…

    Sweet fictional Jesus. Please, can we stop wishing rape on those we find abhorrent? Please?

    Please?

  126. “don’t start slagging anarchists or we’ll have to do a whole education piece on that too.”

    Um, what? The only valid “education” about anarchy is empirical. Somalia has been without a functioning government for some years now. As romantic as a life of piracy might seem, I really don’t want to live there.

  127. Takuan: You seem to be keep in the “all cops” thing going long past anyone else here.

    I made my post at 143. Then ridl @147 posted: The police as we know them directly descend from Southern slave patrols. … no more prisons.

    And just a few posts before mine, ChrisTucker@138 couldn’t leave a post suggesting that there were some good cops on the force.

    Long past anyone else, indeed.

    Time to move on.

    Every post on this thread, including my “all cops” complaint, was made in a single day, Takuan. Only the last few rolled over to March 3.

    And I pointed out probably five or six posts on the “tearful atlantic cop” that said “all cops” are this or that, all of which were made less than a week ago.

    But that’s ancient history? BoingBoing has changed its ways in the last 24 hours?

    If there was an announcement of BB policy that posters shouldn’t make statements about “all cops are evil” or similar, then I missed it. If a single moderator posted anything that discouraged blanket statements about “all cops”, then I missed that as well.

    Pointing out these blanket statements is a legitimate complaint. Had the story been “US Soldier Rapes and Murders Japanese Civilian”, and then someone posted a comment to the effect that “All people in the military are murderers”, it too would have deserved a complaint.

    And while I have NOT seen BoingBoing make any official statement as to moderation policy about such blanket statements about all cops, here you are, telling me it’s time to “move on”, suggesting that complaining about such comments is off-topic, even when such comments were made literally just a few posts before mine, or even after mine?

  128. Ct ff th ffcr’s bllcks nd lght hm n fr thn pt t th flms wth pppr spry. Hw th hll cn y wtch tht vd nd NT gt nflmd???

  129. This footage needs to be public. Cops NEVER have fair trials. He’ll waive his right to a jury, the judge will choose to “take the officers word” on what happened and the whole thing gets swept under the rug.

  130. People are waaaaaay too worked up over this. He didn’t beat her. He hit her a couple of times.

    Did he step over the line? Yeah. He didn’t go way over though. He shoved her into a wall, shoved her to the ground, handcuffed her and then hit her a couple of times. He also grabbed her hair as he stood her up.

    The people who are so worked up over this have probably never been in or watched a real fight. You are acting like he mutilated her and she’ll never live a normal life now. Give me a break.

    Should he be reprimanded? If I were in charge, yes. Fired? Depends on if he has a history of this kind of thing.

  131. @174; Wonder: if you aren’t trolling, you should be.
    Or were you beaten as a child so often you think it normal?

  132. @ 176 – I was neither beaten as a child nor was I (deliberately) trolling. I think that you guys are over reacting. Especially with your insulting comment “Or were you beaten as a child so often you think it normal?”

    I actually felt strongly enough to sign up so that I could reply in a non-anonymous fashion.

  133. #164 posted by Takuan , March 2, 2009 9:12 PM

    the Mafia came into being because poor people could get no justice from the police. The Yakuza in Japan have a similar history.

    Very interesting, also correct. I knew these facts, but hadn’t bothered to apply the theory behind them to the modern US.

    Are you implying that perhaps the US needs to have a Mafia or Yakuza come into existance because we too have no recourse to justice where the police are concerned?

    -abs is afraid he’s inclined to agree since according to his sampling 2 out of 3 police officers are “bad cops” and only 1 in 3 is a “good cop”, and even the “good cop” still believes in the Blue Wall

  134. takuan: Wonder: if you aren’t trolling, you should be.

    Tak, reread my post at 135: I think you really ought to poll the public and compare what you think the public wants to what the public really wants.

    Wonder is one of those people in the public who thinks the police are delivering what they want. Just like there are people who think Abu Graib and Guantanamo and extraordinary rendition are doing something useful.

    You can’t point at the cops and blame this all on them because there is an entire swath of the population who think the cops are doing exactly what they need to be doing.

    You want to really solve the problem? Change the worldview of the public so that this is unacceptable.

  135. gee Greg, that’s quite the passive-aggressive-aggressive-aggressive-passive angle you’re working there.

    Your posts have always displayed a distinct prejudice in favour of anyone wearing a uniform. Very well, your preference, so be it. In this particular thread you import something you began with the 92 year old shooting. Again, fine. However, the finger prodding in the chest tone you consistently maintain means that past a certain point, some of us won’t want to talk to you any more. Your choice. My suggestion for you to move on is my privilege to make. Do with it as you will.

    Apart from that, examining the logic of your arguments regarding police behaviour shows you are working from an underlying assumption that “the public” (ie: all non-cops) are the real cause of all police misconduct one way or another. All very well and good to root for your team and keep the faith etc., but it makes for lousy argument. I would be more impressed if you showed some balance. It would be more persuasive. If you actually seek to change people’s minds or open them to consider new facts and points of view, I advise not destroying the village in order to save it.

    Let me test something: Everyone here who commented or is listening: Do you really want to kill all cops? Do you really think all police are immoral monsters and murdering bullies? Or do you just want them to stop certain behaviours and stop making certain assumptions?

    I await your response.

  136. Wonder: try to accommodate this in your head: an adult male punching a 15 year old girl in the head is ALWAYS WRONG.

  137. Dear Abs: working people cannot now afford any justice, Low or High. The eroding middle class can also kiss goodbye their day in court due to increasing hearing delays and rising lawyers fees. When a critical mass is reached, the legal system collapses because no one believes in it or even seeks to use it anymore. Then the disenfranchised turn to more direct methods. Your property has been taken? Send someone large to collect it? Your child outraged? Pay enough and have the offender’s goulies in a jar. Human nature. Then it spreads.
    Real protection becomes protection rackets and the Dane geld paid, ,you find you have a full time Dane.
    Bad laws aid and abet this. Prohibition in the Thirties, inane marijuana laws now. I repeat: The Mafia has no salesmen, people go to them voluntarily to get what their government denies them or does not provide them.

  138. takuan: I’m glad you asked me that question Moriarty

    from the link:

    Anarchists argue that almost all the anti-social behavior which makes us think it’s necessary to have armies, police, prisons, and governments to control our lives, is actually caused by the systematic inequalities and injustice those armies, police, prisons and governments make possible.

    Oh, come on. Bernie Madoff didn’t do anti-social behavior in the form of a ponzi scheme because of systematic inequalities and injustices. He did it because he is a sociopath. i.e. he didn’t care who he hurt.

    I did a search for the word “crime”, “criminal”, “police”, and several other terms and didn’t find a single piece of text that acknowledge that some people are just evil and that we need police and military to deal with them.

    The fact that police and military create evil situations (like the cop beating up the 15 year old) doesn’t mean that getting rid of police and military suddenly removes all evil from the world or even that it would create a situation with less evil.

    Every situation in the real world where there is no state is far worse than an even mediocre operating state. I’ll take a few bad cops in the US versus warlords in Somalia or Afghanistan any day.

    Every anarchist manifesto almost invariably rests on the assumption that their anarchism would somehow fail to devolve into real world examples of anarchism like Somalia or Afghanistan.

  139. you are working from an underlying assumption that “the public” are the real cause of all police misconduct

    It wasn’t an assumption of my argument. It was a rebuttal to your assertion: what it delivers, is not what the public needs or wants.

    You cannot speak for what the public wants when at least some of the public watches “24” and believes it an accurate portrayal of reality.

    We both think what this cop did to the girl was wrong. I think the fact that he was brought up on charges shows the system is working. You seem to think that the fact that he did this in the first place is a symptom of some larger problem.

    The system is working. The cop was brought up on charges.

    If you want to discuss this as a symptom of some larger problem, then you can say the problem is “the cops” and I can say that the problem is “the public”. Bush’s approval rating the day he invaded Iraq was 70%. Who is to blame for that? Bush? Or the public?

    Invading Iraq was wrong. But if you want to talk about it being a symptom of a larger problem, is the larger problem “Bush”? Or does the larger problem reside in the “public”?

    the finger prodding in the chest tone you consistently maintain

    That is a matter of interpretation. To me, the “finger prodding” by some posts here is directed at all cops. All cops are dirty. All cops are shitbags. All cops are pieces of shit. These are actual quotes from actual posts on BoingBoing. I don’t have to make them up. And I don’t have to invent “finger prodding” to show them.

    The only “finger prodding” on my part is to say that these “all cops are shitbags” or even “all cops are dirty” posts are out of line, or at the very least, not factually based. And if pointing out blanket statements for the unproven assertions that they are is “finger prodding”, then what the hell does BoingBoing stand for other than whatever “team” or “tribe” they’ve identified with, and to hell with the facts?

    Everyone here who commented or is listening: Do you really want to kill all cops? Do you really think all police are immoral monsters and murdering bullies? Or do you just want them to stop certain behaviours and stop making certain assumptions?

    This is a cheap trick, takuan. I quoted several posts that were out of line, were factually untrue, were blanket assertions based on nothing but subjective opinion.

    You can’t just stop the conversation and ask people what they really think, as if those previous posts never happened. I was complaining about specific posts. YOu can’t call “do over” and when no one replies with “all cops are dirty” then go and accuse me of stepping over some line. I quoted actual posts.

    You act like no one said “all cops are dirty”.

    And now with your “do over” game, you’re trying to prove that on some level maybe they didn’t really mean it.

    Well, if someone says “all cops are dirty”, I will assume they mean it. Just like if someone says “that cop should be castrated”, then I will assume they mean it. Just like if someone says “I hope he goes to jail and gets assraped”, then I assume they mean it.

    And it was quotes exactly like that that I was responding to.

    . I would be more impressed if you showed some balance. It would be more persuasive.

    Right back at you. I’ve pointed out several types of comments that are out of line, and rather than acknowledge to me that they were out of line or make a statement to future posters that such statements should be tempered with a dash of reality, instead, you try to tell me that everyone else has somehow “moved on”.

    And yet, absimiliard@178 says that all cops believe in the “blue wall”.

    News flash. This cop has been charged with a crime, the tape did not mysteriously get erased, so not all cops believe in the blue wall.

    Simple, basic fact, demonstrated by the sheer fact that the tape wasn’t erased, and the officer has been charged. Not all cops believe in the blue wall.

    And yet, people keep saying it. And when I say “no, that isn’t true”, you tell me I”m not showing “balance”. It’s a fact, takuan. And the acknowledgement of a fact is required to figure out where “balance” is. You don’t get to suppress the fact simply because it doesn’t meet your definition of “balance”. Wherever “balance” ends up, it must in the end be factual.

    And the fact is that not all cops are dirty.

    Your posts have always displayed a distinct prejudice in favour of anyone wearing a uniform. Very well, your preference, so be it.

    Gawddamnn it, tak. My prejudice has always been to the truth over the subjective. “All cops are dirty” is NOT TRUE. You want to turn an attack on unfounded blanket statements into a prejudice towards people in uniform, that’s your own subjective prejudice creeping in. Not mine.

    I just happen to have some experience with uniforms that informs me of the FACT that not all cops are dirty.

    I advise not destroying the village in order to save it

    This isn’t “destroying” the “village”. several members of the “village” made statements that all cops are dirty, shitbags, etc. I responded that those statements are not true. If that “destroys” the “village”, then the village is the lie, and you might as well say “you’re either with us or against us”.

    If the village cannot survive without propagating lies, then do you support the village and support the lie? or do you try to find a way to support the truth and maybe some of the village has to reexamine itself?

  140. I’m certainly in a balanced view (as is my nature) of the ALL x are y variety of speculation.

    I don’t think I’ve ever said EVERY police person is a bad human being, indeed I’ve suggested lots of times that a person on the job is often not the same person at home.

    However: disliking the institution, for their general demeanour and public relations is an entirely different matter. Like it or not, a certain police department, or certian country’s force, will have an over-riding ‘personality’, whether it is open-and-helpful or closed-and-reactionary.

    There are clear diffences between the UK police and the Irish policing-manner. Or between the Dutch and French, or the Japanese and American.

    Frankly, the Irish police force, An Garda Síochána, are back-handing, closed-ranked, old-boys. There may be a few ‘good guys’ on the team, but by and large they are known and experienced as self-serving bullies. Ireland only got an independent ombudsman in 2007, previous to that the Gards policed themselves. We once had a protest, and they turned up with all their police-numbers and identification removed and baton-charged the crowd. Much blood.

    It doesn’t matter that a few, or even a large section, of cops are ‘good’, if the public feels threatened by them. The ‘bad’ ones are just doing a great job dragging the rest of them down. Fix the bad ones.

  141. bah, don’t start in on anarchists until you’ve done your research. if you wanna dive in head first, try anarchymag.org or anti-politics.net. their distro has some great stuff if you take the time to read it.

    anyway, nature is imperfect and ugly and beautiful and chaotic and self-sustaining and violent. that’s the way life is and no amount of humanist tinkering will change that. humans are animals too, and we should start acting like it.

  142. I see some centripetal motion finally. Can we agree that:

    The majority of citizens wants policing that is effective, humane, above any corruption and responsive to the will of the majority of the people?

    The majority of police are fundamentally decent human beings that WANT to do a good job and be respected rather than hated and feared.

    That this is not the current state of affairs.

    That there is current urgency to this in light of a downward trend.

    That some change is needed. And this change must entail the participation of all.

    That the situation is unsustainable without positive change.

    That the present political climate is a good time for implementing real change.

    That the current balance of power in the relationship is biased towards the side of police due to past practice and history.

    That responsible people of good will from police and the public both should approach the government(s) of the day) with an eye towards identifying the needed change and making it happen.

    That this should be pursued on a national level, regardless of the localities of jurisdiction, perhaps by re-creation of existing federal agency or establishment of new.

  143. Hi Greg, *waves*

    Technically I was post #180, not #178.

    And I didn’t say “that all cops believe in the “blue wall”, thanks.

    I know three cops personally. Two of them are what I would call “bad cops”, one being arguably corrupt and the other being a police officer so that he can beat people up. One of them is what I would call a “good cop”. So when I said 2 out of 3 I was speaking to the terribly small sampling of police officers that I personally know.

    What I did say was that even the 1/3 of cops I know still believes in the Blue Wall. I guess you could infer that the other 2/3 being “bad cops” in my opinion implies they believe in the Blue Wall as well, but I haven’t actually asked them.

    I would also say that a sampling of 3 officers would not be a sufficiently large sampling for me to assert anything being true for all police officers, or any other group either. But without knowing me there’s no way to know that I believe in the scientific method.

    -abs doesn’t mind being misinterpreted, especially since he can see how his off-the-cuff sig-line comment could be read that way, but he doesn’t appreciate it when you put quotes around words he didn’t write and claim they were his, even if you’re sure that what he meant is what you typed he would appreciate it if in the future you actually quote him when you quote him

  144. has the web and ubiquitous video changed something basic in the dynamic here? Are we in the process of an evolutionary social change?

  145. @thekiltedwonder 176:

    The people who are so worked up over this have probably never been in or watched a real fight. You are acting like he mutilated her and she’ll never live a normal life now. Give me a break.

    As the man said upthread, you don’t have to be a carpenter to know the chair is broken. I am glad Malika Calhoun’s injuries were not permanent; however, that is not the crux of the matter as I see it. What is at issue here is that a public employee charged with protecting the peace offered violence to a person who was in no way a threat to him. If you are unable to see any of the levels on which this is wrong, then give yourself a break; I think your lens needs cleaning.

    @ Takuan 182:

    Let me test something: Everyone here who commented or is listening: Do you really want to kill all cops? Do you really think all police are immoral monsters and murdering bullies? Or do you just want them to stop certain behaviours and stop making certain assumptions?

    What good questions, thank you for asking!

    In response to your first question, no, I do not want to kill all cops, or any cops. If I have ever expressed that idea (and I don’t think I have; just playing devil’s avocado here), it has been a hyperbolic expression of anger and frustration with a system I do not see an easy way to fix.

    On to part 2: No, not monsters or murderers, not all. Just like the powerful clique in high school–they weren’t all rapists, but the ones who were sure made me wary about dealing with any of them. And the ones who weren’t were more invested in protecting the strength of the tribe than in dealing with us lesser critters as human beings. Just like high school, in fact.

    To the third part of your question, yes, I want very much for police as a whole to stop certain behaviors and certain assumptions. One of the behaviors I’d like to see stopped is violence towards the already-subdued. One of the assumptions I’d like cleared away is that questioning (and even “lippiness”) = aggression.

  146. Takuan: Can we agree that:

    (snip)

    yeah, pretty much. The last one is a bit questionable since I’m not sure how federal law can mandate how states and local cities enforce their laws. But “certification” and federal-oversight-in-exchange-for-federal-funding are possible ways to get around that restriction.

    While we’re at it, can we also agree that “all cops are dirty” and similar comments are factually wrong?

  147. I’ll agree that almost all universal statements are wrong.

    I’m hesitent to agree that all universal statements are wrong lest I vanish in a paradox.

    -abs is perfectly willing to stipulate the actual statement in question as well, not all cops are dirty, in fact one of his D&D buddies is a good man in general and sounds like a good cop from the stories he tells

  148. I thought we already had, but OK: “not all cops are dirty, etc.” The only thing of value we should take (and can take) from such comments is that people are angry, and anger should be addressed before it grows into hate.

  149. The only thing of value we should take (and can take) from such comments is that people are angry

    Tak, I want you to watch the video at the top and pay attention to how angry that cop is. Anger is not an excuse to be wrong or do wrong, or we’d look at the US invasion of Iraq and shrug, “meh, we were just angry from 9/11”.

    How you feel is your business. But what you say and what you do is what defines the morality of your actions. You cannot lash out and attack someoen because you’re afraid or angry. That is exactly why what this cop did is so wrong. He let his actions be dictated by his emotions.

    People who are angry still need to speak the truth. And if the only truth they can speak is “I’m so fucking disgusted at this that I can’t say anything coherent”, then at least they’re honest and they’re not letting their emotions overcome their actions.

    The people you want to be cops? They’re like that pilot who landed in the hudson. Fucking cool as a cucumber even when his life and the lives of hundreds of people are on the line.

    The people you want to be in the voting population when a 9/11 attack occurs? Fucking cool as a cucumber even when his life and the lives of hundreds are on the line.

    You don’t want people going off half-cocked because they’re afraid or angry about some attack. YOu want people (people in power, people in government, people in teh military, the people in the police force, and the people who vote and keep everyone else in check) you want all of them to be cool as a fucking cucumber when the shit hits the fan. Reality based. Taking responsible action, rather than acting irresponsible because their emotions have gotten the better of them.

    We invaded Iraq because we were pissed, not because it had anything to do with 9/11 or anything to do with rational action to make us safer. Bush had a 70% approval rating because 70% of the population was either scared or mad and didn’t care about the consequences or closed their eyes, crossed their fingers, and hoped blind rage would somehow produce the right result.

    And I see little difference between someone who is pissed off and frustrated and letting their emotions make some comment about ragheads versus someone letting their emotions make some comment about all cops. I see little difference between someone letting their anger justify invading Iraq versus someone letting their anger justify castrating a cop or other brutality.

    And while we can argue what the best way is to address someone’s anger who is advocating brutal action towards someone else, I think we can establish that regardless of how angry Americans were after 9/11, that it has always been an undeniable fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And regardless of how angry some people feel about this cop assaulting this 15 year old, it is an undeniable fact that not all cops are dirty.

    Saying “Iraq was behind 9/11” because you’re angry is little different than saying “all cops are dirty” because you’re angry about this cop assaulting this girl.

    If you want to address the person’s anger first and address the incorrect facts stated, that’s you choice. I prefer to start from the facts and then maybe get into the person’s emotions. Over the internet, via text, a person disassociates from their emtions and I find it nigh impossible to get people to slow down enough to admit that, yes, in fact, they are so pissed that they can’t see straight.

    When Israel bombed the fuck out of Gaza in december/january, all I did in response to the outrage that pro-Israelis had towards Gazans and Hamas was repeat the facts over and over again. The ceasefire had been workign for months. Israel violated the ceasefire. Israel has been blockading Gaza for two years, creating a human rights fiasco condemned by Amnesty, Red Cross, Jimmy Carter, and others. Facts.

    The rabid pro-israeli’s probably never changed their tune. But the facts swayed a few who didn’t know what was going on on the ground.

    The facts may never sway the rabid anti-cop posters on these threads, but the fact is that this cop has been charged with a criminal offence. The BART cop has been charged with murder. The three cops who killed the old lady were convicted and sentenced to several years in prison. Those facts should not be lost amid the anger. And anger should not be allowed to justify saying untrue statements about those we are angry at.

  150. Nope, people are entitled to normal outrage at outrageous behaviour. Every bit of dung-flinging done by any person on seeing that assault video is completely justified. There is no bigotry there. Police are held to a higher standard because they are given a higher degree of power. If everyone in uniform has to wince when they get spattered a bit too, so be it, that comes with the turf. They should be ashamed collectively because it is disgrace on all of them. Initially.

    When the normal anger passes, that is when we can get to down to establishing blame, guilt and consequence. Anger should not colour that phase at all.

    Police should not be subject to unjust anger and abuse, like anyone else. But when it IS warranted, it is hypocritical to pretend that that is not what people are feeling.

  151. #196 greglondon: agree with your statement, with one off-topic exception. We invaded Afghanistan three-and-a-half weeks after 9/11 because we were pissed. Two-and-a-half years later, we invaded Iraq. That was a more reasoned (didn’t say rational) invasion. Afghanistan was anger; Iraq, not so much.

  152. Nope, people are entitled to normal outrage at outrageous behaviour.

    calls for castration? ass rape in prison? Posting of phone numbers? Mailing addresses and promises to mail feces to the cop?

    No, we are in fundamental disagreement here.

    You can feel however you want to feel when you watch this video.

    You start talking trash, whether it be bullshit that Iraq was behind 9/11 or bullshit that this cop should be castrated, it becomes unacceptable behaviour.

    And I will point out bullshit and lies, whoever says it.

    When the normal anger passes, that is when we can get to down to establishing blame, guilt and consequence. Anger should not colour that phase at all

    You think the anger we felt after 9/11 can be stirred by the Rush Limbaughs and Bill O’Reilleys of the world, and then somehow after that agitation, we’ll eventually become rational and do the right thing?

    You think the anger people may feel about this video can be stirred up by demands for ass raping, castration, and then condemnations of the guilt of all cops being guilty of either committing similar abuse or covering it up, and then when that’s all vented, we’ll sit down and have a nice, rational chat?

    History doesn’t support your notion of anger followed by a cooling off period and then rational moral action. People get pissed and do stupid things while angry. And then the cycle repeats.

  153. Afghanistan was anger; Iraq, not so much.

    The fear mongering went like this:

    Iraq helped Al Queda train for 9/11.
    Iraq has WMD’s.
    Iraq will give Al Queda WMD’s.
    Al Queda will use WMD’s against Americans.

    We were listening to bullshit from the Bush administration on Febrary 2003 about Yellow Cake from Niger. Claims that were disproven by UN inspectors and Valerie Plame’s husband immediately after the bullshit was stated.

    By February and March, 2003, the UN inspectors had reported that Iraq was complying with inspections and inspections would be finished in a few months.

    And yet, March 2003, we invaded.

    The anger of 9/11 had been steadily fanned this entire time, and the fear of phantom WMD’s, a phantom Iraq/Al Queda link, and a phantom nuclear al queda attack, kept the fear alive for many.

    We invaded Iraq because a lot of Americans were pissed and scared and weren’t thinking for shit.

  154. Fear-mongering, yup. The pissed part, the real white-rage anger stuff – Afghanistan, 3+ wks after 9/11. Fear is different than anger. But I don’t fear there will be anger at this disagreement.

  155. *dons Adjunct Moderator hat*

    While I see the connection between a) anger/outrage leading to the bad behavior of wishing rape/castration/shit in the mail on the cop and b) anger/outrage leading to the bad behavior of invading Iraq…

    …we are straying rather far from the topic. That would be OK, except that we are also dangerously close to the event horizon of one of the Black Holes Of Conversation, i.e. the Iraq War and it’s atrocities, justifications, vilifications, consternations, palpitations, etc., etc., and so forth.

    Please keep closer to home in this case. Talk about police, girls who are beaten by them, how they’re all/some/none of them just plain evil, the reaction of the multitudes, why cops get to be the way (some of them) are, good cops you’ve known, bad cops you’ve known, infuriating teenage girls you’ve known, infuriating teenage boys you’ve known…

    …if you’ve known any infuriating teenage cops that would be absolutely fascinating…

    …but please let’s not go so far afield that we get into another set-to about Iraq. It’s unlikely to lead to anything very new or enlightening, and there will be other threads for that. The same goes for Israel vs. the Palestinians.

    *doffs Adjunct Moderator hat*

  156. Don and Doff!

    I never noticed they were related, thanks Xoph’..

    /Learnin’ the wrong lesson

  157. Fear is different than anger.

    I’ve found that fear and anger are often the difference between flight or fight. different faces of the same coin.

    I think there are some folks who empathized with the girl, put themselves in her shoes, and thought “that could be me” or “that could be my daughter”, and got angry at this specific cop. “This is horrible” or even “he should be castrated”. Both reactions to this specific cop.

    And then I think there are some folks with anarchistic tendancies who projected this one cop into representing the state, representing authority, and from there they declared all cops are like this cop. All cops are dirty. All cops are abusive or complicit in the abuse.

    It isn’t true. But it fits the anarchist worldview. The state is the problem. Remove the state and the people will spontaneously organize as needed. Crime exists only because the state creates unfair circumstances. And here is an unfair circumstance created by the state. Proof of the anarchist worldview. Well, at least if you cross your eyes and de-focus a bit. All cops are dirty.

    The fact that all cops are NOT dirty becomes irrelevant because it doesn’t fit the worldview that the ultimate source of humanity’s problems is the unfairness of the state.

    fear or anger, whichever it happens to be doesn’t really matter, directed at the state, takes an individual bad cop and expands it to all cops, expands it to the entire system.

  158. Greg,

    Again, you are discounting everyone else’s experience. You seem to be supposing there is only one bad cop, now; here in the video.

    Lots of people have an overwhelmingly bad time with the police, and while we are well past ALL (I thought, but here you are still bringing it up) cops ANYTHING, you have to allow for other people’s experience.

    I wrote something similar @ 187, but you didn’t engage with it.

  159. Again, you are discounting everyone else’s experience. You seem to be supposing there is only one bad cop, now; here in the video.

    I’m discounting the people who have actually stated, using the specific words, that all cops are dirty.

    Lots of people have an overwhelmingly bad time with the police,

    I generally didn’t discount people’s specific experiences. I don’t recall every saying “that never happened to you” to anyone.

    and while we are well past ALL (I thought, but here you are still bringing it up) cops ANYTHING,

    Why are we “well past” it? Takuan@197 just gave his justification for why it is acceptable for people to vent their anger at all cops.

    I asked if this acceptable outrage included calls for castration? ass rape in prison? Posting of phone numbers? Mailing addresses and promises to mail feces to the cop? Blanket condemnation of all cops?

    no answer.

    So, while Takuan agrees that not all cops are dirty, it’s OK if everyone says it in response to their being outraged at some specific event?

    The feeling of rage is allowed to spill over into words that aren’t true? And it’s acceptable because people are angry?

    you have to allow for other people’s experience.

    This isn’t dismissing someone’s experience. This is demanding that people maintain their experience in the facts. You want to feel outraged, go ahead. You want to say all cops are dirty because you’re outraged, you stepped over the line.

    YOu want to be angry at al queda for 9/11, go for it. You want to make some comment about towelheads, you stepped over a line.

    I wrote something similar @ 187, but you didn’t engage with it.

    You changed the converstation from “all cops” to “the institution of police”. Which becomes a matter of public opinion. and whatever public opinion about the institution is, is different from whether its acceptable to say all cops are dirty simply because you’re outraged.

    Takuan linked to a police report by police for police. I didn’t read it all, and it was a few years old, but it said that public opinion of police is generally good and had improved since the previous decade or so. I don’t know what public opinion of the institution is right now.

    The thing is that “Do you think teh police are doing a good job?” is not the same as “Do you think all cops are dirty?” and is not the same as “Is it OK to say all cops are dirty if you’re angry enough?”.

    You essentially were asking a question that I wasn’t arguing against. If you want to discuss public opinion of the institution, I’ll have to read the report and get a better sense fo the numbers.

    But that isn’t the issue I was raising when I argued that “all cops are dirty” is over the line and argued that it doesn’t matter how outraged you are, you still don’t get to say something not true.

  160. what? that needed an answer? Isn’t it sufficient that all those things were dealt with here? Promptly and effectively? You’re coming across as a bully Greg, the kind of person that when joustled in an elevator takes to werewolf manners instead of letting go and moving on.

  161. Ark’ 205: I never noticed they were related, thanks Xoph’…

    I was talking to a guy back in high school who knew these two words, but couldn’t remember which was which.

    “They’re contractions,” I told him, “for ‘do on’ and ‘do off’.” His eyes got very wide; the relationship had never occurred to him.

  162. I think there are some folks who empathized with the girl, put themselves in her shoes, and thought “that could be me” or “that could be my daughter”, and got angry at this specific cop. “This is horrible” or even “he should be castrated”. Both reactions to this specific cop.

    And then I think there are some folks with anarchistic tendancies who projected this one cop into representing the state, representing authority, and from there they declared all cops are like this cop. All cops are dirty. All cops are abusive or complicit in the abuse.
    _____

    I generally didn’t discount people’s specific experiences. I don’t recall every saying “that never happened to you” to anyone.

    True, but it seems like you gave exactly two options: “there are some folks who empathized with the girl” … “And then I think there are some folks with anarchistic tendancies who projected this one cop into representing the state”.

    No leeway for ‘sick of having my experience of police reinforced again and again’. Or, ‘well, this is the one video that got past the blue wall’..

    You changed the converstation“, “You essentially were asking a question that I wasn’t arguing against.

    No Greg, I was trying to have an actual conversation, where we weren’t all on ‘sides’, relentlessly repeating the same shit over and over, it’s fucking annoying.

    And if you can’t see the causality of people’s experience of individual cops leading to hatred of the institution, leading back to a hatred of individual cops, you are just being obtuse.

    I’ve repeatedly stated where I’m at regarding ALL X are Y. But I’m trying to get the conversation past the few All-Cops comments at the top of the thread, into the whys and hows of people feeling like that. You just keep wanting to feel outraged and appalled that people can dislike things in general. How is it that you have to be an anarchist to find the police overbearing?

    Yep, it’s never the cops’ fault, its all society. There are no problems but people making generalisations about the police, and politically forcing the poor police to act in a certain way. If people would stop it, everything would be fine.

    Keep on repeating yourself Greg, I’m sure someone is listening.

    /OUT v2.0

    1. I’m sure someone is listening.

      …………Ripley, last survivor of the Nostromo………….

  163. Xophe’

    His eyes got very wide

    Exactly! The contractions just clicked as soon as I saw the two words bookending your post. D’off was the missing link!

    Learnin’ Roolz!

  164. I was 19 before I noticed that ‘razor’ was the -er form of ‘to raze’.

    I thought ‘shrapnel’ was pronounced with the stress on the second syllable until I was 18…which was the first time I ever said it out loud.

    I always knew that “women need more iron than men,” but I didn’t figure out WHY until I was about 23. (OK, being a gay man makes that a little more excusable. But still.)

    I sounded out the label on the garbage disposal in my parents’ house when I was a kid. “In sink” made sense. I didn’t know what an “era-tor” was though. Years later when a (grown) friend saw it for the first time he said “InSINKerator! That’s a terrible pun!” It had never occurred to me, because I stopped thinking about it before I was capable of getting the pun.

  165. True, but it seems like you gave exactly two options

    “some” and “some” does not equal “all”. I said some are this and some are that. That doesn’t make it an exhaustive list. It isn’t presented as an exhaustive list.

    No leeway for ‘sick of having my experience of police reinforced again and again’.

    If that’s what they were trying to say, I would have happily read their post saying that rather than saying “all cops are shitbags” or whatever. But a bunch of people went with the “all cops are shitbags” rather than whatever alternative you might suggest.

    There’s plenty of leeway as far as I’m concerned for people to have said something along those lines. BUt a bunch of people didn’t say that and said something else instead.

    And the point is that what they said, wasn’t true.

    Or, ‘well, this is the one video that got past the blue wall’

    Not sure what you mean here. Of the last three “bad cop” threads on BoingBoing, the BART cop was charged with murder, the three cops who killed the old lady were convicted and sentenced to prison, and this cop is being charged with some kind of criminal charge.

    so three incidents got by the blue wall.

    Yep, it’s never the cops’ fault,

    Yeah, see, this is pure strawman. I never said that. But if you want to pretend that’s what I said, then yeah, you and I never had a real conversation.

    its all society. There are no problems but people making generalisations about the police, and politically forcing the poor police to act in a certain way. If people would stop it, everything would be fine.

    Well, this goes back Takuan’s assertion that what the police deliver, is not what the public needs or wants. My response at 135 pretty much refuted this on the grounds that there is a segment of the population who believe the police are doing exactly what they should be doing. the same sort of people who watch “24” and think it is a documentary.

    At which point I said if Takuan wants to go into a metadiscussion about the source of this incident or any other specific incident, then he’ll have to change the people who watch “24” into people who watch PBS or something real.

    You want to turn that into me saying that the public is “politically forcing the police to act a certain way”, then you’re deliberately strawmanning my position into something repugnant.

    Yeah, I blame the 70% who approved of Bush on March 17 for the US invasion of Iraq. That isn’t the same as saying those 70% forced poor George W. Bush into invading. Bush wanted to invade, and 70% of the population were too afraid and angry to think and object to Bush’s assinine plan.

    And no, I never said if the public stopped it, “everything would be fine”. I said the same worldview in teh public that watches “24” is the same worldview in the police that act out “24”. You remove the worldview and replace it with something more realistic, you still have potential for abuse. Even if you put in gun cameras and badge cameras, you have potential for abuse.

    It’ll never be “fine”. Because there is no perfect answer to the question of who watches the watchers. Ultimately, the answer of who watches the state is the public. but even the most vigilant public cannot stop every abusive politician or cop or judge.

    I said several times that who watches the watchers has no easy, perfect, answer. It is never “fine”.

    But I’m trying to get the conversation past the few All-Cops comments at the top of the thread, into the whys and hows of people feeling like that.

    First of all, if you want a conversation, don’t strawman every single thing I said into something entirely different.

    You think everyone who said “all cops are” are basing it solely off repeated numerous encounters with bad cops? Nobody made a hasty generalization off of one bad interaction or maybe reading stuff in the news about bad cops?

    Well, lets try anecdotal evidence. Takuan, you posted the anarchist link. How many different times have you personally had to deal with a bad cop when you hadn’t done anything wrong?

    You just keep wanting to feel outraged and appalled that people can dislike things in general.

    Gaddamn it. I don’t care if people “dislike things in general”. I care if they LIE.

    Can you get the difference between “I hate cops” and “All cops are dirty”????

    There really is a difference there. One is disliking something. One is factually untrue. You want to dislike African Americans, that’s your choice. YOu want to say something like they’re all a bunch of criminals, that’s something else entirely.

    Do you get the difference between “I dislike every cop” and “Every cop is a dirty cop”? YOu want to dislike every cop, go for it. You want to say every cop is dirty, then I say you’re a liar.

    It’s a fundamental difference. Given how badly you’ve strawmanned me elsewhere, I’m not terribly surprised that you turned my “don’t lie” into “don’t dislike cops”. But what I’ve been saying, and what you’re complaining about what you think I’ve been saying don’t actually line up.

  166. Greg: if what you want to say is not being heard by those you want to hear it as what you want to say, is it them – or you?

  167. I’ve never been on this site before so I’m not going to bother making an account. I did want to address one statement posted by Hawley though.

    “the comments found on this website illustrate perfectly what the cops feared” – The Officer’s defense attorney, not “the cops”, pushed for the tape not to be released. I’m not defending the King County Sheriff’s by any means, they are a crooked agency with a LOT of problems, but the truth is the department was not the entity pushing for keep the tape from public view.

    “inflamed public opinion on something they neither understand or care to understand.” – What we understand is that a 6’2″ 195lb man who has given his oath to uphold the law assaulted a minor child who was under his care at the time. I challenge you to find one reason under which public opinion should be anything less than outrage.

    “little did you know that not only was she a rampant pedophile but also a narcotics distributor. she has destroyed lives and terrorized hundreds more.” – How exactly is that relevant? If she was a rampant pedophile then a case should be built against her and she should be charged accordingly. If she is a narcotics distributor the same should take place for that offense. Try reading “Corruption of the Noble Cause” by Dr Micheal Caldero (he’s a retired cop who earned his Phd studying the “justification” crooked cops use and you’ve just referred to.)

    “the police officers sense of justice simply overwhelmed him.” – Simply put. If he can’t handle dealing with things like that, he shouldn’t be a cop. Period. If you don’t know as a cop stepping onto the street that the justice system isn’t as strict at you’d probably like it to be you should have never been hired in the first place. Part of the problem is the screening and selection process for LEO’s is seriously flawed, but that is a different discussion. Police are within the executive branch of government, NOT the judicial or legislative. His job is to arrest the suspect and write a report. Too many cops forget this. The job of determining the level of punishment is up to the courts. Whether the courts’ chosen punishment is stringent enough or not is NOT the cops problem or his job to fix and does not give him justification to hand out additional punishment as he sees fit.

    “you would have done the same, except he was able to show remarkable restraint, which i assure you all that non of you would have been able to do.” – I was a Deputy Sheriff for six years and a municipal Police Officer for three. Both in geographic areas which I ASSURE YOU have a higher rate of crime then King County’s 4th precinct. (I know because I grew up in King County’s 4th precinct so I’m familiar with it.) During my tenure as a Deputy and an Officer I’ve been shot at, attacked, strangled, you name it, and I NEVER found reason to attack someone as this man did. People kicked their shoes off when I put them into cells an uncountable numbers of times a day. Sometimes they were smart asses about it and MAYBE a shoe would hit me. Big deal. All you have to do is CLOSE THE CELL DOOR and the problem is solved, the assault CANNOT continue. Then you add a line to the report that says “Soandso then kicked their left shoe at my person, striking me on the right shin which caused pain etc etc” and add the assault on a peace officer charge to the booking slip. PERIOD. The COURT then decides if punishment for the shoe kicking is appropriate NOT ME. If the Deputy wants to hand out sentences he needs to go to law school and become a judge. So I can say with confidence that I would NOT have done the same. And if you have a second, please elaborate on what restraint you think the Deputy exercised in this circumstance?

    “you should all be ashamed of your selfs” – You are defending a 6’2″ 195lb man who physically assaulted a minor child under his care. And we should be ashamed? You don’t feel that defending such action is shameful? Cops are supposed to be the good guys, remember? His actions are pathetic and shameful and criminal. You should be ashamed of yourself for defeding his behavior.

  168. if what you want to say is not being heard by those you want to hear it as what you want to say, is it them – or you?

    Tak, show me where I ever said “it’s never the cops’ fault”.

    Show me where I said people shouldn’t dislike things in general as opposed to saying people shouldn’t say something like all cops are dirty because its a statement of fact, and it’s wrong.

    Show me where I said “There are no problems but people making generalisations about the police”.

    Show me where I said its just people “forcing the poor police to act in a certain way.”

    Arkizzle ends his post by saying “Keep on repeating yourself Greg, I’m sure someone is listening” as if he heard a single thing I actually said. NOT ONE THING arkizzle attributed to me was something I actually said.

    You tell me how many times I have to say “the statement “All cops are dirty” isn’t true” before someone will stop turning that into “it’s never the cop’s fault”, and then I’ll tell you if the problem with communication is what I”m saying versus what people are twisting it into.

    Explain to me any one of these complete misrepresentations of what I said versus what arkizzle twisted it into.

    Cause from my experience, I’m reminded of march 2003 and the runup to the invasion of Iraq. People didn’t care about the facts. They’d say Iraq tried to get yellow cake from Niger. I’d tell them that flat out isn’t true. They’d accuse me of siding with the terrorists. They’d say Iraq had WMD’s. I’d tell them the UN inspection teams haven’t found any and report they’ll be finished in a few months. They’d tell me if I didn’t love america then I could leave it. Did they do that because I wasn’t communicating clearly? Because I wasn’t stating the facts? Or did they have a listening problem? Was it them? Or me?

    Explain it to me, Takuan.

    How is it that I said something fairly specific, several times, “not all cops are dirty”, something factually true, and it gets twisted around into “it’s never the cops fault”.

    Tell me how I caused that.

  169. “They’re contractions,” I told him, “for ‘do on’ and ‘do off’.” His eyes got very wide; the relationship had never occurred to him.

    Dear Cthulhu. I think you’ve changed my world.

    I was 19 before I noticed that ‘razor’ was the -er form of ‘to raze’.

    AHHHH! I never realized that!

    I always knew that “women need more iron than men,” but I didn’t figure out WHY until I was about 23. (OK, being a gay man makes that a little more excusable. But still.)

    Phew. If you’d given me any more revelations, my head might have popped off with a font of Silly String.

  170. God Dammit!

    My final words (hopefully):
    (..and I don’t think I twisted your words Greg, I responded to the overarching theme of what you appear to be saying. NO ONE still in the conversation is advocating the actual belief that every police person is dirty. Please don’t have a meta argument with this bit, just answer the following question:)

    Greg, have you defended lawyers in this way? Is it not common to say “All lawyers are..”? Do you think anyone really thinks that ALL LAWYERS are personally bad? Or is it more likely that “All Lawyers” represents a coloquial group view that doesn’t need defending because it isn’t 100% true and everyone knows it, but is true enough that most people have had a confirming experience.

    Taxmen? Do you rush to defend the good and truthful honour of each individual taxman, when they are slandered? DO you rush in to defend each and every IRS employee when someone spouts off about them?

    What about Nazis? (minus Godwin, and not comparing cops to Nazis..)
    Do you take the time to make sure we all know Nazis are individual humans too, behind the work-a-day chores of a soldier (not including genocide, which most Nazis weren’t involved in), who were very probably loving fathers at home?

    You can pick on any single misplaced word in this comment and argue it til you’re blue in the face, but if you honestly answer the question being asked, YOU WIN.

  171. just answer the following question: Greg, have you defended lawyers in this way? Taxmen? Nazis?

    Ok, you gotta admit, godwin is funny.

    I don’t recall defending lawyers, taxmen, or nazis, specifically. However.

    I have questioned people when they assert that the US needs Tort Reform, which usually is something they attempt to back up with lies. The old lady who burned herself with coffee from McDonalds! She should have known it was hot, it was coffee! Lawyers are the problem! A bunch of these kinds of stories circulated when John Edwards was in the presidential campaign. He made his money sueing nice doctors for malpractice! So, yea, I’ve probably defended lawyers to some degree.

    Taxmen? can’t think of a specific conversation off the top of my head.

    As for nazis, I probably said something to the effect on warhw.com that using Nazis in a story is a copout to allow you to present a war porn story which removes the moral qualms that would come from killing an enemy represented as human. Sort of like how the foot soldiers in Lord Of The Rings are Trolls and Orcs and RingWraiths, rather than other men from Middle Earth. The Persians in “300” were monsters and freaks and perverts, rather than human, specifically so that killing them in slow motion, showing the blood spray across the screen, wouldn’t invoke an empathy response.

    So, I’ve probably defended lawyers. I don’t recall defending taxmen, but I don’t recall blanket statements about all taxmen. And while I haven’t defended Nazis, I have attacked people who have used them for purposes of war porn.

    Does that sufficiently answer your questions?

    a coloquial group view that doesn’t need defending because it isn’t 100% true and everyone knows it, but is true enough that most people have had a confirming experience.

    So, here is my question to you, arkizzle:

    Someone says “all lawyers are crooks” and uses that in part to justify Tort Reform. Would you still say that “all lawyers are crooks” is simply a coloquial view that everyone knows really isn’t true? Would you still say that it is, you know, harmless?

    That seems to be what you’re going for here. That comments like “all cops are dirty” is harmless. Everyone knows it isn’t true. It’s just something people say.

    And in a way, it is harmless, right? It is just words after all. It would be no more harmful than someone forwarding a story about how lawyers are greedy and use lawsuits to make themselves rich. It would be no more harmful than using Nazis in a movie because they make nice, convenient, emotionally cost free, cannon fodder. Or Jack Bauer using torture to save the wordl from a ticking time bomb.

  172. Well, that’s how you get federal jurisdiction. Bring them up on civil rights violations.

  173. So, I ended up reading the original article from the main post of this thread again.

    I think the original post is incorrect. It says “the King County Sheriff’s department tried to block the release of this video”.

    I don’t think that is the case. I think the lawyer defending the deputy sherriff tried to block the release of the video. Which isn’t the same as the institution of the Sheriff’s Department itself attempting to block the release of the video.

  174. Greg: FWIW, Anonymous @ 129 pointed that out as well.

    Someone says “all lawyers are crooks” and uses that in part to justify Tort Reform. Would you still say that “all lawyers are crooks” is simply a coloquial view that everyone knows really isn’t true? Would you still say that it is, you know, harmless?

    I would look at why a phrase like “all lawyers are crooks” existed, what the underlying sentiment parsed out to, rather than using a four word phrase to write law. If I found evidence of the legal system being used as a business opportunity, then there would be good reason to look into ways to curb conspicuous litigation.

  175. And in a way, it is harmless, right? It is just words after all. It would be no more harmful than someone forwarding a story about how lawyers are greedy and use lawsuits to make themselves rich. It would be no more harmful than using Nazis in a movie because they make nice, convenient, emotionally cost free, cannon fodder. Or Jack Bauer using torture to save the wordl from a ticking time bomb.

    I’m not sure what you were going for in this paragraph.. Because I mostly agreed with it. Was I supposed to wince in horror at my monsterousness?

    ..I don’t get it, sorry (genuinely, not trying to stir you up).

  176. Arkizzle, sometimes people are just looking for someone to beat up, either physically or intellectually, to show off for the crowd.

    If someone insists on misunderstanding you, quotes you out of context, and treats your discourse as a puzzle to be deconstructed to your detriment, you have to ask yourself – am I having a conversation, or is someone just using me to feed their ego? If who wins is more important than what’s meant, anything you say can and will be misinterpreted.

    I myself am not a twig to be bent, so I avoid such people when at all possible, and thrash them soundly whenever they cannot be avoided.

  177. I’m not sure what you were going for in this paragraph.. Because I mostly agreed with it. Was I supposed to wince in horror at my monsterousness?

    No, I wasn’t trying to get you to “wince in horror at your monsterousness”.

    Some people just don’t care about words. I do. You asked if I did this sort of thing to other occupations. I do. Because I think words matter.

    I think stories about Iraqi soldiers throwing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators (a false propaganda story, if you didn’t know) are responsible for people’s actions in response to those stories. Nurse Nayirah testified before the US congress about Iraqi soldiers killing kuwaiti babies for their incubators and several members of congress cited her testimony when they voted for ousting Iraq from Kuwait. Turned out she was a distant relative of the Kuwait royal family, but, oh well, just words.

    I think words matter. Some people don’t. If you don’t, then say it doesn’t matter. Don’t try to pop-quiz me into whether or not I think words matter when spoken about lawyers, tax people, or Nazis. It irrelevant to your actual position. If you don’t think it matters what people say, say that instead of attacking me for saying words do matter.

    If you really feel that “all cops are dirty” isn’t 100% true and everyone knows it, and it’s OK if everyone says it because we’re all under this unspoken agreement, then say that.

    And so, back to my question, since you didn’t answer it: say we find a topic you do care about. I’m not sure how you feel about Tort Reform, but say you’re against it. Now say someone comes along and says “all lawyers are greedy and that’s why we need tort reform”.

    My question to you is this: do you not care about statements like “all lawyers are greedy” no matter what position you stand on the topic?

    Or do you care if the statement conflicts with your personal experience of the group in question? (say your wife is a lawyer, do you let “all lawyers are crooked” go without comment because, you know, we all understand that the statement isnt’ true, its just that a lot of people have that confirming experience.)

    Or do you care only if the statement conflicts with your political position on the topic? (you don’t know any lawyers, but you’re against Tort Reform, so you object to the “all lawyers are greedy” for political reason?)

    Me? I tend to object to any statement that doesn’t line up with the facts. Even if that statement might support my own position. I was against George Bush, but if someone in a discussion said they hated Bush because he had the Air Force bomb the pentagon on 9/11, I’d be disagreeing with that statement.

    So, that’s question number 1. do blanket statements not matter even if they disagree with your personal experience or your political position?

    question number 2: When people posted that the cop should be castrated, is that OK? How about when they hoped he got ass-raped in prison? Still just words? How about when they posted a mailing address and promised to mail the guy some feces? Still just words? Requested his home phone number so they could make annoying calls? Still just words?

    Basically, is there a point for you where words do become potentially harmful to the point that someone ought to discourage further similar statements?

    “all cops are dirty” obviously isn’t over the line of “harmful” for you. The question is there any words that start crossing the line.

  178. “bah, don’t start in on anarchists until you’ve done your research. if you wanna dive in head first, try anarchymag.org or anti-politics.net.”

    I read most of the material on both of those sites, and my opinion of anarchism as an ideology is lower than when I started, which I didn’t think was possible. They’re more delusional than Stormfront.

  179. And so, back to my question, since you didn’t answer it: say we find a topic you do care about. I’m not sure how you feel about Tort Reform, but say you’re against it. Now say someone comes along and says “all lawyers are greedy and that’s why we need tort reform”.

    My question to you is this: do you not care about statements like “all lawyers are greedy” no matter what position you stand on the topic?

    Greg, I thought I did answer.

    I don’t make up my mind about anything based on people saying ALL X are Y. Maybe this isn’t the answer you want to hear, but you are setting up a very specific circumstance in which you want me to explicitly argree or disagree – whereas I think you need to add a lot more detail to your hypothetical for me to judge it.

    This is how you tend to argue. Set up some ultimate black and white situation, and no matter how much people say “well, its a grey area”, you demand “yes” or “no”, over and over.

    I’ll try to answer you genuinely, though.

    When anyone says ALL X are Y, about anything, I assume they are exaggerating and take their words with a kilo of salt. I usually try* to disengage my reality sensors because the person is either an arse, or they are blowing off steam. Neither are constructive, so it’s easier to see them as such. And It’s extremely good for the blood pressure; why spend the energy fighting battles when your foe was only cardboard. Maybe later, in calmer times I’ll get them to clarify their position.

    I agree words are important, but not that they always need to be acted upon. I hope I also have an awareness of what my actions do to a thread, and if no one is engaging the way I expect them to, I’ll try to walk away instead of hammering and hammering, long after the original offenders have gone (who may not have had the conviction in their words that you credit them for).

    Shorter: If someone was talking about murdering cops, I’d say “hold on”. In fact, you’ll note I flagged and called out the person calling for the cop’s castration. That was too far, and I stood up and said so. Beyond that, it was empty words and frustration.

    And to be clear: This is entirely different to racism and bashing minorities. The police are privileged and in control, and have no right to the kind of protection we give to vunerable groups. Same as students :)
    (Maybe you don’t make fun of students in the US, but over here they are free-game)

    Me? I tend to object to any statement that doesn’t line up with the facts.

    Me too, I agree entirely. However I try* to choose my battles (Mostly. Sometimes I launch in headfirst, like you have in this thread).

    Sometimes there is zero to be gained by picking apart the white-lies or fuzzy truths in a conversation (least of all the one-liner drive-bys). All you can do is offer the other side and know that people are intelligent enough to know the difference.

    No: I’m not saying STFU in case you annoy people.
    Yes: I’m saying if you are getting nowhere, walk away.

    My point with the lawyer comment was to widen the range and see if you pick on every similar situation. You played along, but I genuinely don’t believe you are such an insufferable bore as to pick on every little grey thing someone says, all the time.

    You must have some sort of filter, or threshold (not only of things that offend you, but of when you will fight back). I suppose ours are just set differently.

    * It can be difficult :)

  180. arkizzle, thanks for the honest answer.

    You must have some sort of filter, or threshold … I suppose ours are just set differently.

    yeah, different something. At the moment, I’m at a loss as to what exactly it is.

  181. To serve and protect.

    Absolutely inexusible, for any reason. She could have been a 15-year-old girl convicted of murder, for all I care. There is no excuse for him to ruthlessly attack a girl in his own holding cell who posed no risk to him at all.

    The Seattle P.D. needs to discipline that cop big time.

  182. you sheriffs (pigs) should be executed i look at the video she wasnt resisting and if she was you all are grown men she’s only 15 . punching her like she was a man then throwing her down why dont you do that to me and my wolf pack we’ll get up with your drama idiots one year in jail i hope he gets raped and beat up coward pig! matter fact i just might move there and resist arrest so i can see him and spit in his face and beat him senseless like he did her! that is totally uncalled for what they did and a harsher punishment should happen , if it was up to me i’d stone them like they did in the biblical times! may you all be dealt with accordingly by god!

  183. Yeah, takes a real tough cop to keep a 15yr old girl in place.
    Can’t imagine the dept keeping this guy on to even clean toilets.
    Schene belongs in jail.

  184. Boy, I must admit she looked highly dangerous and that officer took a hell a chance! Frankly, he’s a fricken coward, bully, dung head and at 65 I still like to have a shot a him!

  185. And they wonder why people hate or distrust cops they abuse the authority and the job goes straight to their heads. I could see if she posed a real threat yeah she may have had a little attitude when she kicked off her shoe but if you whatch close enough she was about to kick off the other one so she clearly didnt mean serious harm to the officer. They said the video shouldn’t have been released so he could recieve a fair trail but wherein was it fair to her for him a grown man to put his hands on a little girl like that. Even after any intial “threat” was over he still hit her two more times. What a pussy ass bastard!

  186. There is no reason for that sheriff to be on the street. that was nothing more than a completley vulger and irresponsable display of power. this gy deserves to rot in jail with all the pathetic pieces of S**t.

Comments are closed.