HOWTO flout the flavored tobacco ban and make DIY homemade clove cigarettes

Boing Boing reader/commenter catastrophegirl, commenting in a thread about an enraged hillbilly user of flavored chewing tobacco, points to her Flickr photoset documenting her quest to make DIY kretek (clove cigarettes). These lung-rotting treats are much beloved by goths, and by my inner 14-year-old punk girl. Both catastrophegirl and "skoalrebel," each in their own ways, were upset about the Obama administration's recent ban on flavored tobaccos. The new FDA kibosh makes it illegal to sell stuff like clove cigs, and skoalrebel's beloved Copenhagen whiskey deeyup.

Catastrophegirl commented,

I heard about [the ban] the day it was signed. Now i am back to smoking a pipe at home and smoking homemade clove cigarettes when i drive. Besides the difficulty involved in driving and lighting a pipe, cops for some reason cannot fathom a caucasian woman smoking a briar pipe that doesn't have weed in it.
It's kind of a pain to set up and took me a while to find the right tobacco for my tastes, but aside from my little nicotine addiction, I am going to thoroughly enjoy smoking my clove cigarettes in public. The law is about sales and distribution. it does not cover making your own at home and smoking them as far as i have been able to glean from the law. If someone could point me at the full text of it, that'd be neat - even the FDA site has an abbreviated version.

I remember the taste of cloves well. In my memory, it is inextricably linked with certain songs by Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Damned, and other bands from the last great days of leather, studs, and black vinyl. I've long since become a nonsmoker, and believe that smoking and chewing are horrible habits -- but on this point, I can even agree with skoalrebel: the ban is total bullsheyut. Consenting adults ought to be able to purchase and smoke/chew the stuff if they want. The ban is a reacharound for Big Tobacco.

"Making Kretek" (Flickr)

Boing Boing editor/partner and tech culture journalist Xeni Jardin hosts and produces Boing Boing's in-flight TV channel on Virgin America airlines (#10 on the dial), and writes about living with breast cancer. Diagnosed in 2011. @xeni on Twitter. email: xeni@boingboing.net.

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orangebag

Jphilby

…and the skiers…

I believe that skiers will pay an extra premium for their insurance, whereas in certain parts of the United states of tobacco peddlers it is illegal for insurers to ask if you use tobacco. (NY state? Citation Needed)

That would be the key difference between dangerous sports and smokers, in at least some areas.
Anonymous

Please oh please ban tobacco.

I’ve been meaning to get into highly profitable organized crime and this would allow me to get in on the ground floor.
DarthVain

A sign of the times methinks.

Unless you look like Farley Mowat or Chris Cringle police are likely going to assume you are smoking pot and harass you if you smoke a pipe in public.
Halloween Jack

Consenting adults ought to be able to purchase and smoke/chew the stuff if they want.

Sure, hey, no problem, I can agree to that, with one catch: anyone who consents to smoke, chew, dip snuff, whatever signs a little form permanently waiving their right to publicly-funded treatment for any tobacco-correlated illness or condition, at any government level. They can print a little photo on the form, showing an ex-goth dying in the gutter next to skoalrebel trying to do a podcast through what’s left of his mouth. (Hot Topic will probably put the image on a black teeshirt.)
tls

@18
(I said:)
1) There were already laws against selling cigarettes to minors (and in some states, against minors possessing cigarettes). Why do we need new ones?
(Orangebag said:)
Because we can be aware that not all laws will be enforced. Some will in fact be enforced less than others.
—-
So why is this one the magical one that will be enforced better? Why not spend the same time, energy, and money on enforcing the existing law instead of adding yet another law that may be enforced haphazardly at best, and blanket targets both offenders and non-offenders?
Anonymous

I suspect you weren’t raised by a smoker mother (smoked during both her pregnancies) who cannot give up at all.

In my case, I merely smoked myself. ~2 packs a day for 10 years (1978-1988). I quit. I am uninterested in forcing others to quit.

Perhaps you would prefer a society run for the benefit of sellers of known addictive poisons?

Think of it as evolution in action.
MrJM

As the son of hill people, I was raised to see flavored dip as the tobacco equivalent of wine coolers, i.e. Fine when your younger, but by the time you’re a teen, you should switch to the real thing.

– MrJM
Sleeper

@48:
And here we see the common comment section species: the “Internet Tough Guy.”
yri

The ban is ridiculous, in my opinion, but it’s great to see that, should I ever want another kretek, I can make one myself, or buy a re-packaged clove “cigar.” Mmmm, cloves…
sirkowski

Smokers in general smell bad, but pipe smokers are the worst. They smell like shit, even when they’re not smoking.

There was a kid at school who’s dad used to smoke a pipe. The kid would get teased because he stank too.

Anyway, way to go stickin’ it to the Man/Obama. Getting cancer is what the cool kids do.
reiki650

Well, now that clove smokes are banned, I guess I will have to start smoking marijuana.
Ambiguity

You’re absolutely right. It should be a ban of all tobacco–not just the flavored kind. I’m not defending the bill. I’m saying it doesn’t nearly go far enough: we should ban smoking completely.

Because history has shown us time and time again just how amazingly well prohibition works!

…

The only problem with the “you can do whatever you want, so long as it doesn’t affect me” arguments (health-care costs, whatever), is that it’s based upon the assumption that things are much more loosely coupled than they really are. Drive to work this morning? You’re adversely affecting the ability of the Inuit to live their traditional lifestyle, etc. etc. etc.

If people want to start thinking clearly about ethical issues, they need to base such thought on sound assumptions, and not the presupposition that we’re all islands. And they need to cut other people a at least as much slack as the world implicitly cuts them…
_kevitivity

A government run health-care system (which I’m not necessarily against, if done right) is only going to make this type of nanny-state idiocy much more common. Watch for it.
Certhas

@57 As evidenced by numerous European states with public health care systems which were much more reluctant/slow to move on smoking than the US.
orangebag

#57

is only going to make this type of nanny-state idiocy much more common.

I believe that flavoured tobacco is not illegal in britain, and we have dirty socialist inefficient free healthcare here. Smokers get treatment, too. (I suspect that both of those things are true in Canada.)

I would say that it’s probably fair for smokers to get treatment. but we should definitely do all we can to discourage smoking; up to the limit where we put too much power in the hands of gangsters.
Anonymous

Wunderkammer Magazine recently published a symposium on the Death of the Clove:
http://wunderkammermag.com/20090921/wk-mag-contributors-end-clove
Snig

#52 Orangebag
Skiing is a dangerous sport for those who don’t know how to ski, or who ski recklessly. For those who grew up skiing, or learned to do it safely, and who ski within their limits, it’s a safe effective exercise. There is no way to smoke without damaging your body. If you smoke near someone else, there is no way to not damage their tissues.

Other conditions associated with smoking: Erectile dysfunction.

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/cigarettes_send_male_sex_life_up_in_smoke

The study did not allow for the possibility that men with erectile dysfunction preferred smoking, since that’s all they could get lit.

Other conditions:
Back pain
Neck pain

Cox, J and Trier, K. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 10(5):239-45, 1987.

BMJ 2004;329:250 (31 July),

J Rehabil Med. 2009 Jun;41(7):550-6.
Anonymous

Fear not clove smokers. I was at smokeland yesterday and saw the new packs of clove “cigars” that come 12 to a pack. Apparently, they are taking advantage of a loophole that allows them to sell with a different package and designation.

I’m glad they are still available as I smoke them occasionally. They remind me of my childhood.
Snig

I think tobacco should be legal, in private or extremely well ventilated zones, but only if all the nicotine is removed. The determined wish to damage your own lungs is fine. The deliberate chemical enslavement of individuals in order to enrich a corporation should piss off the libertarians as much as the liberals. Otherwise, it should be safe to market cocaine or heroine. First few doses are free…

If we can only improve the lives of the smokers who demand sweetly flavored tobacco, that’s better than nothing.
Robert

“Consenting adults ought to be able to purchase and smoke/chew the stuff if they want.”

– Xeni Jardin

====

“Earlier this month it was announced that heart attack rates fell by about 10% in England in the year after the ban on smoking in public places was introduced in July 2007 – which is more than originally anticipated.

“But the latest work, based on the results of numerous different studies collectively involving millions of people, indicated that smoking bans have reduced heart attack rates by as much as 26% per year.

– BBC, “Smoking bans ‘cut heart attacks’ “, http://usproxy.bbc.com/2/hi/health/8267523.stm
Snig

Sorry Orangebag, meant to direct that to Jphilby, not you.
cinemajay

#49/jphilby

You’re on! Seriously though, smoking is a contributing factor in heart disease, so again I don’t sympathize. Also, I’d like proof that my health insurance is higher because of…skiers?

And just to reiterate, it’s not about what you can do to while being a smoker, it’s that it’s a drag on the health care system too.

:)
orangebag

#63
Salright, it was informative for me too;-).

And you may have a point about skiing being safe for experienced practitioners.

(I admit to not knowing, but I am sceptical that it wouldn’t be a bit more dangerous than the average sport even for skilled skiers.)
decline

99% of non-smokers die

the argument of running up the cost of insurance is a crap. insurance will always go up. your actual problem is with how insurance works, is mandatory, and too costly to have and too costly not to have.

and its not a public safety thing either. we don’t really care about safety. we are not out to keep everyone safe and immortal at all.

and honestly if we are interested in breathing clean air…well check the smog and air quality in most places. that isn’t 2nd hand smoke causing that. if no smoking advocates spent half their energy going after emissions from cars and factories we would all be much better off than the less than 2% of smokers using flavored tobacco.
mellowknees

@#55:

“Smokers in general smell bad, but pipe smokers are the worst. They smell like shit, even when they’re not smoking.”

I have to respectfully disagree. My dad smoked a pipe for most of my childhood and he smelled great – like oiled wood and vanilla. Our house didn’t stink, my mom and I didn’t stink…I don’t know what the pipe smokers you know are smoking, but maybe it’s just really smelly tobacco?

I was really saddened by the ban on flavored tobaccos – not because I think smoking is great, but because it’s a stupid limit on the personal freedom of adults in the name of “protecting children”. Instead of going after the idiots who keep selling tobacco products to kids, the law goes after EVERYONE.

And I have news for the legislators – kids who want to smoke are still going to get cigarettes. Do people grow up and forget that they were teenagers once? I don’t think it’s the fancy flavors that attract kids to smoking in the first place. Cloves taste good to a smoker, but it’s not like they taste like Lucky Charms.
bhilton

Everybody seems to want to talk about the cost of cigarettes related to healthcare, but nobody has brought up the profit of the effects of them. Cancer is very big business. And how many capitalists want to see their bottom line shrink?

#39 you had the best comment of all.
cinemajay

“Consenting adults should be able to purchase and smoke/chew the stuff if they want.”

…and run up the cost of everyone’s insurance to boot.
Anonymous

“smokers die so young that it offsets the hospitalization costs they will incur.”

What about all the non-smokers whose health is affected by the smoke?
tomboing

Nice to see “flout” used correctly instead of “flaunt” used incorrectly.
Tenn

@1 Cinemajay:

We start sliding when we decide what products are unacceptable risk. What about heavy cholesterol foods? I smoke (on occasion, few and FAR between), but I’m much healthier than a buddy of mine who eats the worst things possible; I exercise heavily and I have a pretty good diet. I can outexercise a lot of non-smokers.
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  But, Tenn, you’re only nine years old.
Anonymous

@1

If you can do it with fatty foods and children, I should be able to do it with cigarettes.
BastardNamban

Ok, this is fucking ridiculous. It was SPONSORED by RJ REYNOLDS! How is this NOT an example of lobbyist power?

Thoughts on legality of tobacco aside- how the FCUK does America not call Obama on this? He basically sucked corporate c*ck on this one. And how did I not even hear of this bill BEFORE it passed? It should have been laughed out of Congress based on the obvious anti-competition bias alone!

I love cigars. But I don’t smoke them in front of others who hate them, in enclosed spaces, indoors, etc. I take my freedom, and don’t make others miserable with it. So why should ANY substance be different? Why can’t Americans adopt attitudes towards personal consumption like those of the Netherlands? If people don’t like smoking, ban it indoors except for clubs and bars, and be done with it!

I’ve had clove cigs. I get that they are a niche item popular with some groups. I can’t say it’s fair to ban these- it’s not for proper reasons. NEVER, ever smoke too many of these at once- you will feel like you’ve died and gone to HELL. It’s the worst feeling I can possibly describe, and I’ve been stabbed. Being drunk and smoking a pack of those made me wish I was dead. The misery these bring your stomache is unimaginable, really. I can’t think of a worse feeling on Earth that rivals the feeling of it, like your lungs become rotten gum. They scare me just thinking of them, and I smoke weed & cigars. Chronic has nothing on the harshness of clove cigarettes.

But this is damning the personal freedom of others’ consumption. And I don’t agree with that, same as Xeni.

FINALLY- I *LOVE* smoking shisha flavored tobacco from a hookha, especially with tapas and wine. Can anyone PLEASE chime in if they know- is shisha banned now somehow? If so, there are like 3-4 great hookha bars in Pittsburgh now, and they’d have to close!

If shisha is banned, I’m going to flip the hell out! !>_
thequickbrownfox

Been smoking black market tobacco for years, widely available here in Sydney.

I call it Open Source tobacco, cheap and high quality.

I roll cigarettes, with a filter added just like Proprietary cigarettes.
Genellyism

I realize I am a bit late to read and post this comment, but this is for archive purposes. For anyone who happens to see this and read it. The recent ban that included the clove cigarettes is a ban on the sale of cloves and other flavored cigarettes from within the United States. In other words, vendors or websites located within the United States cannot sell these flavored cigarettes. However, you can go online and buy them from vendors outside the US and have them shipped to you for personal consumption. The added bonus here is that when you get them by the carton online, they are much cheaper, so thanks to Obama, you can now afford to smoke even more clove cigarettes.!! =)
drmuerto

@1 CINEMAJAY
“…and run up the cost of everyone’s insurance to boot”

You want to take away our cars, too? How about high-heeled shows and the back problems they cause? Computer screens cause eye-strain and you know who picks up the slack? My insurance premiums.

The flavored tobacco ban is a joke. The legislation was co-authored by RJ Reynolds and there is a clause in there protecting menthols. Can you guess which product RJ Reynolds doesn’t produce? a) Menthols or b) Cloves?
se7a7n7

I’ve never been able to enjoy smoking (cigarettes). The last time I tried to smoke a clove, I ended up getting sick.

Many of the flavored cigarettes did seem to be aimed at kids.

Cigarettes are very harmful to a persons health and do end up costing the Health Care Industry a lot of money, that’s a fact.

No one can honestly say that cigarettes are just as dangerous as computer monitors or high heeled shoes… really.
Powell

>but on this point, I can even agree with skoalrebel: the ban is total bullsheyut.

Never in a million years did I think I would hear Xeni agreeing with someone named skoalrebel (I happen to agree with you both) Kudos Xeni! LOL
Mycroft

In regards to the cost of smokers and their health problem, is there anyone who enjoys looking at charts who would like to find out if the costs of smoking are greater than the insane amount of taxes we have to pay to enjoy our delicious evil habit? I know Connecticut’s tax just went from $2 to $3 per pack. I know the price is insane in NYC, and more than high enough here in Suffolk County, NY. How about instead of state and local governments using smokers as a source of easy money that only a minority complains about, 100% of tobacco taxes are used for health care and smoking cessation programs? I am sick of paying a massive tax as a way of convincing me to quit. Taxes aren’t for regulating behavior, they are for raising revenue, and the only way tobacco taxes could be fair is if the taxes were used to alleviate the financial burden that smoking causes. Which as it stands right now is only part of what those taxes are used for.
angurgapi

for one, who here uses energy that comes from coal? who here drives a car that runs on fossil fuels? the amount of carcinogens produced by those emissions is hundreds of times more toxic than second-hand smoke. cancer is a synergistic disease that requires many sources to take root (including genetic predisposition).

i started smoking on menthols that my older cousin’s buddy stole from his mom. i was six or so. i didn’t start smoking regularly until i was twenty. i started out on cloves, because when i was age seven to eight, my mother was trying to quit smoking cigarettes by smoking cloves. they were a fond memory of my childhood.

eighty percent of the mentally ill smoke cigarettes. i suffer from bipolar disorder. i have been smoking at least a pack of cloves a day ever since the full onset of my disease at age twenty-one, (excepting the months and years during which i quit voluntarily or was forced to quit due to incarceration in mental hospitals).

my favorite brand, Sampoerna, has not been available since the US raised tariffs on Indonesian tobacco in the ’90s. Marlboro subsequently bought the house of Sampoerna brand, when they began to fail economically due to the loss of their US market. this brazen child-marketing technique seems like an obvious bait to entice the feds into shutting down Indonesian sales in the US even further, allowing for international corporate undercutting once the lost market effects those Indonesian producers.

the gal above is making a clove much like a Nat Sherman. the addition of clove oil is not part of the standard kretek, to my knowledge. i have been making my own clove rolly off and on since Sampoerna shut down. my only real concern is that there are federal licenses for tobacco blending, and i’m not certain whether or not they legally apply to tobacco blended for personal consumption.
catastrophegirl

@84 YRI – the clove cigars are slightly different, not as sweet smelling, less smooth to smoke and a larger diameter tube. but not awful. i just don’t like them enough to smoke them unless i am desperate.

@86 DECLINE – only 99% of non smokers die? have you been watching ‘highlander’ again?
Tenn

! Antinous, long time no see. :p Let’s just say I take after my great grandmother, who started at 5. Anyway; this is dumb.

This better not come down to my flavored tobacco for the hookah. Obama, I support you, but I am -not- happy.
Snig

@3 Tenn
And there’s likely folks who could use heroin or cocaine recreationally. Many who could likely out exercise me. While you may buck the curve, many will get addicted and regret that the cigs were available. You may get stressed out later in life and get more dependent on them. The FDA does push people away from high cholesterol foods too, but it’s harder to regulate.

This is a nasty question, and I feel shitty asking it, but would you want your kid smoking? At 18, he’ll likely feel pretty independent and capable of making decisions. He may feel that way at 13. He may have more of an addictive personality than you.
catastrophegirl

@#100 angurgapi – i’m confused. i used to smoke sampoerna extras. i was charged with misdemeanor possession of a pack of them in 1999 in florida [they've been illegal there since 1985, although still sold at many retailers for years]
i smoked them until 2005 when philip morris quit importing them to the US.
maybe they weren’t available locally to you?

i’ve never had a nat sherman, but i tried making these with just cloves and not the oil and it didn’t taste good to me at all. i guess i just prefer them more strongly flavored?

but a friend linked me to this today also:

http://myclovecigarettes.com/original-clove-cigarettes-p-180.html

for a roll your own cloves starter kit.
the site and packaging are clearly designed to circumvent US law
Anonymous

I don’t smoke, I hate the smell of tobacco, but maybe this will be the start of a movement like the home brew beer movement. Alcohol abuse is certainly still a problem with home brewers, but at least anecdotally the work used to understand how to control the process and get something out that is enjoyable grants them a better appreciation.

Again from my own experiences, a home brewer is less likely to pick up a bunch of Boones Farms to get plastered, so it is my *hope* that this legislation might encourage similar behavior.

I’m probably completely wrong though :(
Anonymous

My late father rolled his own cigarettes from cherry-flavored pipe tobacco for most of his life, and always found it amusing that the cops showed not the least interest in the middle-aged crew-cut wearing white guy driving down the road with an obviously hand-rolled cigarette in his mouth.

He also found that even the most ardent smoke-nazis tended to ignore his hand-rolled cigarettes, long before the tobacco lawsuits explained why his hand-rolled pipe-tobacco cigarettes irritated fewer people’s lungs and eyes and sinuses than anything available by the pack. Neither his hand-rolled cigarette papers, nor his pipe tobacco, were treated with the chemicals that are used to keep ordinary cigarettes from going out if you don’t keep puffing on them.

Most of my friends who smoke cloved cigarettes are coasting by on the cartons and cartons of the stuff they packed into their freezers in the week before the ban. But once that supply runs out, I fully expect hand-rolling your own flavored cigarettes to be all the rage among hipsters. And, frankly, that’s probably a good thing.
thebelgianpanda

I posted #74, I forgot to log in :D
Anyway, for the hardcore do-it-yerselfer you might check out http://www.seedman.com/Tobacco.htm
cinemajay

Yet another reason NOT to smoke: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/12/soldier.lung.cancer.transplant/index.html
remmelt

@1

This may be unsubstantiated, but I read somewhere (citation needed) that smokers die so young that it offsets the hospitalization costs they will incur. In other words, their addiction keeps them from costing a lot once they get old (which they usually don’t) so they actually keep our insurance cost [i]down[/i].

(Notice how I go us against them, etc)
Anonymous

i started rolling my own cigarettes after the recent tobacco tax hike took effect. i found you can get around paying a fortune for loose tobacco by buying whats called “smooth pipe tobacco”. its labeled for use in a pipe but actually is just regular cigarette tobacco. i pay $15/lb which works out to about $1/pack when combined with the cost of the tubes and shipping. i dont recommend the tube stuffers shown in the photo set. i use the premier brand super-matic excel. it does a great job and didnt cost much.
adamnvillani

“The deliberate chemical enslavement of individuals in order to enrich a corporation should piss off the libertarians”

Actually, in my experience libertarians will froth at the mouth madly at the slightest exercise of governmental power but are completely blind to power when it’s exercised by corporations.
angurgapi

looks like that Ryo tabac is legit. packaging of that sort is a typical anti-theft maneuver. and the law is not about rolling tobacco, just chew and cigarettes, no? (like i’ve taken the time to read an article of law that i have no power to change…)
- catastrophegirl
  
  thanks for the tips, i tried it tonight with mixing the last of the clove oil flavored tobacco i had ready to go with an equal amount of unflavored and more crushed cloves. i don’t have a strainer i am willing to sacrifice to the cause yet, so i’ve been just picking the large stem pieces out by hand, but judging from the amount of machine jamming i am getting, i miss a lot.
  the blend i made tonight was an accident, since i am almost out of clove oil. i do kind of like it a little better.
  the clove oil option is based on the description of the clove cigarette in the florida tobacco tax law from 1985: “containing in whole or in part clove, clove oil or eugenol”
  still working on the recipe but your tips helped!
  i still prefer the vera cruz papers. if i needed the sweetness on the paper i’d do as the manufacturers do and dip the tubes in saccharin first, but that was always something that actually bugged me about clove cigarettes – i never liked artificial sweeteners
tls

As the ban is not against all tobacco but merely certain types, purportedly to reduce underage smoking, arguments in favor based on the fact that smoking is bad for you sort of miss the point.

I’m against the ban for two major reasons:

1) There were already laws against selling cigarettes to minors (and in some states, against minors possessing cigarettes). Why do we need new ones? Enforce the old ones, and leave the choice of smoking materials for adults alone until and unless tobacco becomes illegal.
2) Menthols both are used by a large percentage of smokers (including underage smokers) and were totally untargetted by the bill. The ban may claim to be about reducing underage smoking, but the omission of menthols makes it seem like it’s more about closing off routes of competition for American cigarette companies.
LavenderNotes

Tenn brings up a good point. Does this ban include shisha (or whatever the real word is) for the houkah?

I stopped caring about cloves when I was 30, but take away my houkah, and them’s fightin’ words…
orangebag

Smokers deserve every single quantum of their increased risks from cancer and everything else.

Nothing fills me more with rage than the idiotic teenager smokers who are convinced of their coolness and the non smokers fggtry.

There is a special place in hell for the knowing peddlers of this addictive poison. Truly the native american’s revenge.
Anonymous

I’ll be throwing a big party the day all fucking tobacco products are banned for sale everywhere.
Methinks due to the income they bring into governments this will never happen, even if that income would have been offset by the savings in health costs. Then again it would mean people living for longer, sucking up resources. Hrm. A tough one.
Anonymous

You can still get the flavored stuff from the middle eastern stores :)
cinemajay

@3/Tenn, glad you can exercise. The problem I have with smokers is they say they should be free to smoke and even pay higher premiums for the privilege, but the problem is when smokers, en masse, are hospitalized and the cost of care skyrockets. Why is that?

Well, for starters, take the doc’s I work. They complain constantly about how smoking is a contributing factor to a laundry list of other health problems.

It’s a public health issue and goes supercedes an individual’s personal choice. Why should anyone get the “choice” to burden and/or harm the whole of society with their nasty habit?

@4/Anonymous, you’re bypassing the topic by making an assumption about my lifestyle. (Neither of which is correct, btw.)

@5/drmuerto, You’re absolutely right. It should be a ban of all tobacco–not just the flavored kind. I’m not defending the bill. I’m saying it doesn’t nearly go far enough: we should ban smoking completely.

@11/remmelt, like you said, unsubstantiated. I had an aunt who died at 55, a grandfather at 60, and one of my coworkers at 62.
Mike Estee

huh. can we ban flavored alcohols too?

smoking is a terrible bad habit, and I’m don’t like being around smokers when they’re smoking, but I do believe in personal freedom.

freedom is the ability to make bad decisions.
Anonymous

Free people should have the right to make their own choices, so long as those choices don’t infringe on anyone else. This applies to this absurd flavored cigarette ban, as well as the ‘war on drugs.’
orangebag

TLS

1) There were already laws against selling cigarettes to minors (and in some states, against minors possessing cigarettes). Why do we need new ones?

Because we can be aware that not all laws will be enforced. Some will in fact be enforced less than others. We all know that age restrictions on things like alcohol and tobacco will certainly be cirumvented at times. Nicotine addicts can get their fix from a cool, smooth natural alternative.

Sounds pretty likely that “flavoured” cigarettes will appeal to children and teenagers disproportionately. It would follow then that this kind of ban is also not unreasonable.
orangebag

freedom is the ability to make bad decisions

I enojoy a wide variety of freedoms, and include in that freedom from drug peddlers targeting children.

I do realise that what this legislation represents is as many limits against nicotine pushers as corruption and lobbyists will permit.
inkfumes

Let’s go ahead and ban flavored tortilla and potato chips too, those fun flavors are aimed right at my internal child. Lets also ban fruit flavored wine coolers, beer with lime flavor, cherry coke and breakfast cereals flavored with marshmallows.
inkfumes

Can we also ban political legislature flavored with mormon intent?
Anonymous

#10
Would I want my kid smoking?

Well, having 2 daughters that are almost teenagers, this is something I have thought about.

I would WAY rather them smoke (tobacco, cloves, or weed) than drink alcohol.

How many kids die EVERY DAY from alcohol poisoning, vs. die from smoking? No kids die of smoking — if they continue it affects them years later. However, they could go to a party and drink so much they die that night.

And, we know what happens when you try to make alcohol illegal…
Mark Frauenfelder

I dipped Copenhagen snuff every day from 1976 – 1985. We looked down on users of Skoal and Happy Days (raspberry!) with snide disgust. I think it’s great that the Feds are outlawing flavored dip. I hope they make flavored coffee beans illegal while they’re at it.
Anonymous

It is already ILLEGAL for kids to buy tobacco products. Taking away my cloves is not going to change anything, except make life less liveable for the law-abiding adult like me who loses freedom of choice.

I can’t stand the way the government is choosing what I can and can’t smoke. If cigarettes are really so bad (and maybe they are), then ban ALL of them, not just the ones that have certain flavors.

I would accept (grudingly) a ban on ALL tobacco, just like a ban on all pot. But picking and choosing serves no rational purpose. Either ban it all, or get the government the hell out of the process!!!
agoodsandwich

I am not a smoker, and I do think that smoking is a terrible habit, but I also think that this ban is an enormous waste of energy. You cannot legislate people into making good decisions. We don’t need government to protect us from ourselves.

People are very resourceful, we can always find a new methods of self destruction.
Antinous / Moderator

Government policies aside, angry addicts are hilaaaaarious.
cyranodeventura

I don’t smoke, but many of my friends do, and of that grouping some have actually quit with some success. When people start demanding that we think of the children and whether an 18 year old is capable of making decision for themselves I say screw it. We have existing laws, designed specifically for this issue, if my child started smoking that’s their damned decision. Those of you who rail against this seem to forget that just like you the people who smoke have free will, and further they have a brain. If a teenager decides to start smoking and in spite of all of societies warnings continues to do so, that’s their choice. It’s like some of you believe that the addictive quality of cigarettes is so powerful that once hooked you’ll never be free…it’s called willpower, and or determination. The same with fatty foods, alcohol, all these other things that are bad for us. we can’t hand hold everyone through their whole life, and dang it I hate when I sound like my libertarian friends but people have the right to make bad decisions in their lives, even teenagers.

I mean this is transparently about RJ Reynolds knocking out competition.
Anonymous

@drmuerto
R.J.Reynolds now produces a clove cig and they are marketing it in Indonesia…. the place where the cloves came from that were previously sold in the U.S.
FUBAR.!!!!
scifijazznik

Welcome to my basement flat
No windows to see through
With darkness closing in, my friend
We’ll both know what to do

Let’s wait for the blackout
The light is too bright
Let’s wait for the blackout
Wait for the night

Aww, man…cloves, the Damned, Siouxsie– Xeni, darling, you have restored my long undead inner goth to his natural state: mourning.

Can’t say I’d be able to smoke a Djarum like I did back in the day. But that unmistakable scent always took me back to a simpler time pale skin, black hair, and wasted weekends watching Eraserhead and The Hunger. It will be missed.
Anonymous

I bitterly hate smoking. Despite having just had surgery to remove cancer caused by smoking, my dad is smoking again. His mother/my grandmother died of lung cancer. His brother/my uncle died from smoking related cancer. His father died from bladder cancer from smoking. My mother’s brother/my uncle died of lung cancer from smoking. If smoking were a person I’d beat the crap out of it with a baseball bat until it died, and feel good about it. My brother and sister are still addicted to smoking despite all this.

I used to smoke, and cloves were what I started with as a teenager. I am glad they are banned, I only wish they would go further. Cloves may not have been directly marketed at teenagers, but I don’t see anyone else smoking them, so I am especially pleased to see them banned. Cigarettes are a deadly addictive drug marketed by amoral monsters to reap profits off an addiction that kills.
Anonymous

What enumerated power is in the Constitution to ban tabacco and or cloves? Oh right it’s not expressly given. Well I guess if we cared about liberty and law we’d write up an Amendment to allow that power. But we don’t. I’m 100% certain the founders had no intention for any of the enumerated powers to be use for these legislative measures.
WaylonWillie

did any of you ever watch someone die of lung cancer? it is a really brutal way to die.

i know the ban may be bullsheyat, but the cigarette companies are bullsheyat times infinity. fuck them.
Mitch

They banned the only kind of cigarettes that don’t stink!

What’s next, banning blueberry flavored marijuana?
angurgapi

well, i use whole cloves that i grind in an electric coffee grinder. i then sift the cloves with a wire cooking strainer. this step catches all the large, woody chunks of clove for regrinding. the remainder that has fallen through the strainer, i then sift through a finer wire strainer to remove the clove powder. what remains caught in this second strainer i mix with tobacco at a 40/60 clove/tobacco proportion, by weight.

i used to use fine cigarette tobaccos from my local store (hooray rich’s tobacco!), but since the taxes have increased so dramatically, i have been using cheap, sweet pipe tobaccos. to imitate the sweetness of the sugared clove tobacco filters, i use rizla licorice papers.

hey, i hope someone tries my blend at home!

oh, and catastrophegirl, perhaps it was the change in the blend of sampoerna x-tras that got me started making my own blend. i will say that i much preferred them to djarum, which is all that was commonly available after sampoerna vanished.

which could make my whole argument moot and reconstructed without reference to any database…

either way, i’m pissed that they forced me back into making my own cloves. i’m lazy and crazy.
montymov

#1 POSTED BY CINEMAJAY,
#50 POSTED BY ORANGEBAG,
#55 POSTED BY HALLOWEEN JACK,
and probably a few others:

Why would anyone accept the cost of insurance as an inevitability? Maybe, if you are concerned with saving money, you should work to get rid of the insurance companies rather than condemning people for lifestyle choices you find immoral. It would be difficult and a real drain on your self righteousness. but it would make more sense.
Tobacco is taxed at an incredibly high rate and those taxes go to offset healthcare expenses. My guess is that these taxes more than cover the expenses you are worried about. I would concede that these ridiculously large sums of money, along with other â€œsin taxesâ€, are likely being diverted to other areas of our government, though.
In short, I think we need to decriminalize more drugs rather than move in the opposite direction as these new laws do.
But then, Iâ€™m generally in favor of more freedom, rather than less.
montymov

Re:
#67 POSTED BY ROBERT:
“Earlier this month it was announced that heart attack rates fell by about 10% in England in the year after the ban on smoking in public places was introduced in July 2007 â€œ

Did they look into any other possible explanations of the falling rates, or did they simply attribute them to a ban they favored in the first place? Iâ€™m sure many pleasant events occurred in England during the one year period that followed July 2007, but I would hesitate to attribute any of them to this ban without more detailed research from an impartial person or organization.

Lightwood,Â JamesÂ M.,Â PhD
Doctorate in Economics, Field: Econometrics, University of Southern California,Â 1994
Professional Biography
James M. Lightwood is an Assistant Adjunct Professor, with emphasis on Health Economics and Statistics, in the Department of Clinical Pharmacy at the University of California, San Francisco. He is also affiliated with the Center for Tobacco Control, Research and Education, funded by the Legacy Foundation.
Source: http://clinicalpharmacy.ucsf.edu/faculty/bio.asp?bioid=%7BB530BB03-4CA8-4C34-8F55-9D6FA926A4E2%7D

In other words, Doctor of Economics Lightman is paid by an organization focused on the banning of cigarettes. which calls into question the conclusions he comes to, just as it would if he were paid by an organization focused on promoting smoking.
orangebag

It’s like some of you believe that the addictive quality of cigarettes is so powerful that once hooked you’ll never be free…it’s called willpower, and or determination.

I suspect you weren’t raised by a smoker mother (smoked during both her pregnancies) who cannot give up at all.

I view the problem from a different viewpoint, I am entirely unpersuaded that drug peddlers need the freedom to target children.

(I agree that making tobacco illegal would hand vast amounts of power to people even worse than BAT or whoever, so I *would* vote against outlawing tobacco.)
montymov

Re: the emotional arguments:
Cigarettes did not kill your grandma, sister,cousin, etc.
They killed themselves.
So please stop running around, snatching things out of strangersâ€™ hands, or asking the government to do so on your behalf.
Your services as Self Appointed Preschool Warden of America are not wanted, or needed.
Remember:
â€œNo matter what the argument, waving around a corpse or a baby doesnâ€™t make you any righter.â€
- Mark Twain
cinemajay

@27/cyranodeventura

“Those of you who rail against this seem to forget that just like you the people who smoke have free will, and further they have a brain.”

Ah, but see you’ve made a critical error there as it’s been proven for years that nicotine short circuits the brain. If it were true that free-will was unaffected by the chemicals in cigarettes, et. al., people would be able to quit cold-turkey without little effort.

I understand that it’s not fun or even right to be told that “you shouldn’t have a free choice” in the matter, believe me!

Of course, you’ll sympathize when I complain how have no choice but to pay higher premiums for my health care–as well as an increase more than the cost of living each year–to offset the cost for people who don’t take care of themselves. And yes, obesity and other bad habits figure into that. That’s irrefutable. It’s enough to break an already inefficient health care system.

Smoking is 100% preventable, and like I said–I don’t get to choose to pay less to cover those who do.

The only smokers I find myself offering sympathy for are those who want to/try to quit. That’s a step in the right direction.
catastrophegirl

@#2 TOMBOING – i meant smoking them in public is flaunting my habit, but yes, i worded it poorly.
had no idea anyone would even read that deep into the comments that late into the day until i got a rush of emails telling me that i was being added as a contact on flickr by a bunch of folks.

but hey, sure my insurance costs are high… but that’s because i’m a diabetic with multiple sclerosis. the smoking only increases my premium by $1.70 a month. i’m also allergic to weed and alcohol… this law put a crimp in the only vice i had.
i’m not going to get into a debate on the evils of smoking or vices. unlike the government, i believe we are adults who can make our own choices.
Xeni Jardin

@SCIFIJAZZNIK,

KISS ME YOU FOOL
foobar

I’d rather see them move all tobacco sales to dedicated tobacco stores, with a zero tolerance policy on sales to minors.
cinemajay

Correction in previous post”

“…quit cold-turkey with little effort.”

:P
Snig

Very sorry to read so many who support the freedom to smoke. While you can decide to start, it is physiologically and psychologically extremely challenging for many to stop. The addictive qualities are typically greater than alcohol, as a large percentage of the populace can drink whithout developing a dependency. Fatty foods are not close to the same order of magnitude in their addictive qualities. Its neurochemistry, not a matter of a simple choice. Your second hand smoke may effect the lives of those around you. (Second hand snuff is less risky of course, but pretty disgusting). RJR and likely all “Big Tobacco” also makes flavored tobacco, so it’s doubtful they’ll significantly gain market share.

I feel very old scolding kids not to smoke. Couldn’t you kids just go out and get tattoos or have wildly inappropriate safe sex or something?

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/health_effects/index.htm
Anonymous

I think this kid nailed it in his YouTube video regarding clove cigarettes and individual liberty for adults:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFuH4h0d-Aw

For every one person like the inarticulate hillbilly in the dip video, there are a handful of people with common sense who also think the illegal status of flavored tobacco is ridiculous.
apoxia

I support all efforts to restrict the availability and range of tobacco and alcohol for purchase.
Anonymous

Freedom from vs. Freedom to…
When one of the “Enlightened” hears that freedom is people’s ability to make bad choices, what they hear is:
“People make bad choices.”
They, by virtue of their intelligence and success, have proved that they make good choices. It is only proper that they should make choices for those less capable. There is no good reason for them to hold back from making a better choice for the others, there are only the limits of opportunity.
Extremists will talk about freedom, but there is still freedom as long as you are making good choices. Those who make good choices have even more freedom, as now they can make choices for others, and shape their environment in a better way. We can now all be free of bad choices, and that is worth more than the symbolic freedom to do something stupid.
We are in for a lot more of this, because most people can’t construct an argument against further encroachment by the enlightened based solely on freedom.
Anonymous

To be honest, this is the first action of the Obama admin that really pisses me off. Aren’t we trying to rid the world of idiotic prohibitions, not introduce new ones?
Anonymous

Or you can search out the new Djarum clove cigars. They are basically the same, but they are rolled w/ tobacco instead of paper, making them cigars, not cigarettes. Other than that, they are the same. My only complaint is that they aren’t rolled as tightly, and smoke faster.
scifijazznik

@ XENI-

only if you’ll shotgun me some clove smoke…
Anonymous

I’ve never seen any minors smoking cloves. I do see plenty of minors smoking menthols. The flavor is not comparable, smoking a clove is a much harsher experience than a normal cig or menthol, doing this to save kids just doesn’t hold water. Furhter, I’ve only ever seen cloves for sale in two places, Head Shops, which generally bar minors from coming in, and due to cops being ever so slightly more vigilant in regards to Head Shops usually kick out without a sale anyone without proper ID. And Indian Reservations which, well this isnt a good example, as I’ve never actually seen them proof anyone (and being technically outside the US, I guess is their right to do), but I’ve also never seen any (obvious) minors on the rez who werent there with their parents. So where are all these minors we’re protecting even finding their cloves?

I never much liked the taste of cloves, but the smell is wonderful, always reminds me of Pennsic…
Anonymous

I’m old enough to remember the ‘non-smoking’ sections in restaurants being a joke — a single table in a hazy room. It sucked for me, since a single cigarette’s worth of smoke gives me a painful cough.

However, I support others’ freedom enough that I have no problem with a walled-off and mostly seperately-ventilated ‘smoking area’ anywhere. Only in places where other’s smoke is oppressive should it be banned completely.
Ian70

if you’re really good at the flute you’re called a flautist.

if you’re really good at flouting what do they call you?
haineux

Do you know what the picture on the Djarum package is? It’s a NEEDLE. As in, you might as well just SHOOT THE POISONS DIRECTLY INTO YOUR VEINS.

Cigarettes contain far more poison per dose than damn near anything else, AND they don’t even give much of a lift.

I’d totally support banning tobacco outright — make people use the “electronic cigarettes” that emit nothing but nicotine, water vapor, and some kind of NON-TOXIC flavoring agent.

This would DRASTICALLY reduce the health damage to “smokers” — but not eliminate it, alas. It would also eliminate the health risk of second-hand smoke to all but a very small part of the population.

I know they sell these “electronic cigarettes” in malls in California right now. I hope THEY come in clove flavor.
- Anonymous
  
  they’re trying to ban the electronic cigs to. explain that one buddy
- Anonymous
  
  @ all the people that want to out right ban tobacco
  
  Most of the arguments you’ve made apply only to cigarettes. Cigars and Pipe tobacco are far safer (no not safe) seeing as most if not all cigars and pipe tobaccos contain NONE of the unnatural chemicals that cigarettes. As it is I bought a huge supply of pipe tobacco because there was talk of talk of banning internet sales of tobacco.
  
  Tobacco use is a choice that has been legal in the united states since 1889 and is unlikely to change. While were at it lets ban trans fats, fast food, red meat, all forms of alcohol, television, professional sports, computers, ALL Vehicles including cars, motorcycles, trucks and vans and be forced to use public transportation because ALL of these are personal choices that CAN be dangerous with out self control and an understanding of what you are doing.
- Anonymous
  
  Yes, it’s a needle… as in the needle from a record player. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djarum]
  
  As many others have stated, it appears to be an attempt by the American tobacco industry. Big Tobacco is probably also behind the recent initiative to tax pipe tobacco at 775% because companies are trying to market their Roll-Your-Own blends as pipe tobacco to get around taxes on RYO tobacco [http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/pipe-news/stop-the-pipe-tobacco-tax/]. Although RJ Reynolds, etc. doubtlessly own many of the RYO brands, I think the increasing numbers of people attempting to get around cigarette taxes by rolling their own is cutting into their profit margins.
Brainspore

It’s time for us liberals to admit that we’ve won the war on big tobacco in this country and give it a rest for a while. Every schoolchild now knows the risks of smoking, and almost nobody is exposed to dangerous amounts of secondhand smoke in public places anymore. Yes, people still die of tobacco-related diseases every day, but it’s now almost entirely due to their own lifestyle choices.

If we push tobacco bans any further than we already have then we’re going to look downright ridiculous when we try to legalize weed.
haineux

IAN70, if you’re really good at flouting, in the Olden Days, they’d call you a Scofflaw.

These days, they call you a Terrorist.

Hope that helps.
WeightedCompanionCube

Ah cloves. I love the smell of one burning near me. I’ll take a puff or two off a friend’s. But holy hell, does it hurt to smoke one in earnest.

There might be a reason menthol isn’t included in this ban: Menthol doesn’t make my chest ache after one cigarette. Cloves do. That can’t be good for ya.

Speaking of which, Camel has an interesting gimmick these days: The “crush” cigs are unflavored, but have a little capsule in the filter you can pop if you want a menthol.

Considering the oil is in not actually in the tobacco when the pack is sold, could Camel get around the law by doing that with clove oil? They’d make a killing, especially considering they sell several flavored varieties that will be outlawed by this ban.

I’ve just about given up on cigarettes. Used to smoke American Spirits, and still do socially, but ever since I got a pipe I mostly just sit on the balcony and puff A.S. tobacco in that. I don’t smoke as much and my fingers don’t stink.

Although I must admit, when I picture myself sitting on a swing and smoking a pipe, I can’t help but think “Crap, I’m getting old!”
LowOnProzac

We should implant electrodes in the bodies of babies at birth. As the government determines what is bad for them, they can shock them into the correct behavior. â€™m sr th Dmcrt prty wld spnsr th bll.
jphilby

@1 CINEMAJAY
“…and run up the cost of everyone’s insurance to boot”

The insurance companies … and the skiers and HS sports and skateboarders and car drivers and booze drinkers and fast-food eaters and lazy asses … etc. … are doing that just fine without my help. (#1 killer: heart attacks)

I enjoy smoking much more than living in a world full of people who need scapegoats to excuse their continual mistakes. I’ll outrun you up the stairs two at a time without any puffing … and probably twice your age.
orangebag

Maybe I should support early years smoking, if only smokers died of cancer before they reproduced. ;-)

Unfortunately anonymous coward #39 your argument is the argument for legalising marjuana, cocaine, heroin etc. etc. We only need to prevent heroin users from operating machinery while high. There are already laws against being drunk in charge. Why do we need more laws??(Wipes foam from his mouth..)

Get the goddam filthy nazi-nanny socialist elitists out of our lives, eh? (Insert terribly literate reference to Orwell here)

LOWONPROZAC.

Perhaps you would prefer a society run for the benefit of sellers of known addictive poisons?
After all, “The Market has spoken. All praise to the Holy Market. Blessings and peace be upon its Holy Name and Works.”
orangebag

Jphilby

“I’ll outrun you up the stairs two at a time without any puffing … and probably twice your age.”

My gd r cck mst b s fckng bg.
t’s shm t’s mr lkl t b flpp thn mn.

Who is more likely to need:
a laryngectomy?
a leg removed because of circulation trouble?
Surgery to remove cancers?

Is it a smoker or a non smoker?
Can you tell me Marlboro Man?
Certhas

The total societal cost of smoking varies from country to country, based mostly on the health system which takes a hit from people being sick and the retirement system which benefits from people dying earlier, and tobacco taxes.

There are countries where smoking saves the taxpayer money.

At this point there isn’t terribly much rational about the demonisation of tobacco anymore. It’s a cultural fight against those who have not subscribed to the total supremacy of physical health as a value in itself.
Super Nate

Any extra smokers get in insurance payments they make up for in too dead to collect social security.
Anonymous

Personally, I’d just like to see some rogue scientists develop a highly resistant blight to specifically and solely attack tobacco plants. Get a big lung cancer awareness group to secretly spread it across all the tobacco plantations. Then when it all dies out we can use the crops to plant more important things like food and trees. More food… less starving people. More trees… less global warming. No more tobacco… no more lung cancer (from smoking), less pollution (do you think millions of people in the world lighting up doesn’t affect the environment?), less smoking related health issues (to free up doctors and researchers to work on more important things).

Epic Win!

Any brainiac scientists have some free time? :)