Why Penn and Teller won't cover Islam or Scientology on their TV show

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125 Responses to “Why Penn and Teller won't cover Islam or Scientology on their TV show”

  1. mikesum32 says:

    Apropos:

    Penn Jillette: Why not even Sarah Silverman trashes Muslims.

    http://revision3.com/pennpoint/sarahsilverman

    and Penn on Apple banning an anti-Islamic app.

    http://revision3.com/pennpoint/islam-app-banned

  2. Anonymous says:

    Usually atheism has not had enough support in any area to start persecutions but the one time it did in Soviet Union many people died in result of years of atheist persecution. It is no about religion, it is about extreme believes of any kind. People always need something to believe in but hopefully someday we will learn to respect each others believes so no extreme ideas get support.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Soviet_Union_and_Warsaw_Pact_Countries

  3. neverminding says:

    Whether or not he wants to tackle Islam is irrelevant. It’s his show (or Showtime’s depending on how you read that comment) and he can do whatever he wants since it’s entertainment and not public policy.

    BUT, his justification for not covering Islam is absurd fear mongering that plays right into the hands of the people that are too tired and overworked to fight off the nonsense spewing from Fox. What he just said is nothing more than old fashioned bigotry. The kind we’ve worked so hard for so long to overcome.

    I like Mr Jillette’s books and magic and have occasionally been entertained by his show, but now that I know he refuses to use that big beautiful brain of his, I’m going to refuse to support his professional career.

    That’s all you can really do when someone does something this stupid.

    • Micah says:

      What he just said is nothing more than old fashioned bigotry. The kind we’ve worked so hard for so long to overcome.

      Like I asked agger in my earlier comment, is Colin Powell’s wife also a bigot for talking him out of running for president for fear of assassination by racists?

      Both she and Jillette were expressing a fear of terrorism rooted in historical examples of extreme intolerance/supremacism. You might call it cowardly or hysterical or overblown or unjustified. But it’s not bigotry.

      • neverminding says:

        Comparing Penn Jillette to Colin Powell is a little bit of a stretch don’t you think? Mr. Powell was fooled into convincing the UN that invading Iraq to defeat a particular flavor of Islamic terrorism was not only a priority, but the ultimate responsibility of the USA.

        Penn is a bigot. He broadly labels Islam and justifies it by using a weak comparison to the extremists in another religion he feels safe attacking.

        But you think what you want. I’m only saying the guy showed his true colors and he’s part of the problem, for which I’m not going to fork over my hard-earned to support his career.

  4. Anonymous says:

    You’re pretty safe criticizing Islam in America, most of the fear is overblown. You might incite riots in other countries by doing so, but there’s just not enough hard core Muslim immigrants in America to really threaten you. Honestly, I’d be more afraid of the Scientologists at this point in time.

    You don’t really have to worry much about death in Canada either, though you’ll be sued to death for “inciting hatred”.

    In Europe it’s different, though. If you publicly criticize Islam there you might as well be committing suicide.

  5. DelTaco says:

    “I’m not sure. And we haven’t tackled Islam because we have families.”
    Not sure why people don’t get this. He doesn’t want to end up like Theo Van Gogh…

    BTW, the guy who did Piss Christ in the US, offending Christians only had the threat of getting his grant revoked.

    Note the two totally different reactions.

    End of discussion.

    • Ito Kagehisa says:

      BTW, the guy who did Piss Christ in the US, offending Christians only had the threat of getting his grant revoked.

      I’ve been told Andres Serrano has had his work vandalized by violent Xtian thugs and received hundreds of death threats; some for his work, and some due to his sexuality. What makes you think he has not suffered for his (rather lame) work?

      I myself have been threatened with death by violent Christians. You should look up the Phineas Priesthood; violent christians murder people all the time.

      But really, is everyone here immune to irony? Penn is dissing Muslims when he says he is afraid of dissing them. He is mocking Christians when he claims he’s not afraid of them – he had to pull the episode of Bullshit! that dissed the Vatican (the Catholic faith being of course the greatest mass murderer of all history, topping both Stalin and Hitler) because he really IS afraid of them.

      I think it’s funny. Irony, sarcasm, misdirection. It is to laugh.

    • Neon Tooth says:

      Never mind that iirc the artist was a born and raised Catholic, and Christianity still rules the Western world we live in, but hey….

  6. UncaScrooge says:

    Despite the limitations of the television medium, “Bullshit” should be praised for exposing viewers to the concept of debunking Christianity. This is not something that television has given much air time.

    “Mythbusters” should be praised for exposing people to how much the “Scientific Method” resembles what we call “Common Sense.” Again, television has fallen down on the job here leaving many people to believe that science is a personally unobtainable ideal. “Mythbusters” leads you to believe that you could have science at home while warning you not to attempt it.

    Also Libertarians should be praised for the nostalgia they bring: Remember the days when the conservatives boasted a few intellectual icons? Hell, the Libertarians even have Peter Bagge.

  7. Felton says:

    Has anyone else here ever seen the movie Penn and Teller Get Killed, in which Penn goes on a talk show and tells everyone that he wishes someone were trying to kill him?

  8. mgfarrelly says:

    Both Penn and Teller are hard core libertarians who live in the Nevada desert on their own little compounds. Multi-millionaire living out their Galt Gulch fantasy.

    These are not the people from whom I expect the values of tolerance to flow.

    Mind you, I think they’re dazzling performers, and I’ve paid to see them on stage nearly a half-dozen times.

  9. takeshi says:

    According to ‘Bullshit!,’ scientists can’t decide whether global warming is manmade or not, and secondhand smoke may not cause cancer.

    So, whatever.

  10. jerwin says:

    Well both Penn and Teller are fellows at the Cato institute which isn’t a secret exactly:

    Teller’s page mentions one article: Next Stop: the Crib, which excoriates the V-chip. It seems reasonable enough. Do opinions become suspect once the Cato institute deigns to publish them?

  11. billstewart says:

    mgfarrelly@48, they’re not living in the Remote Nevada Desert because they want to be in their own Galt’s Gulches away from civilization, they’re living there because they perform live in Las Vegas most of the time; they left New York City years ago, even though it was more fun seeing them on small stages in the Village. (Plus you can build a really cool house in Nevada for a few $billion less than the equivalent would cost you in Manhattan, so why not!)

    Libertarian versions of tolerance don’t mean not telling you that things they disagree with are bullshit, but they do mean the much more radical form of tolerance which is not having the government arrest you for it. Right-wingers want to have you arrested for saying “bullshit” on TV, left-wingers want to have you arrested or fired for saying mean things.

    And the Danish newspaper guy who had those cartoons drawn a few years ago talking about how some Moslems were intolerant of free speech had any number of threats of violence against him and the cartoonists even after the initial riots were over; sometimes fear of intolerant people is justified.

  12. Ito Kagehisa says:

    Rumor has it the Vatican episode wasn’t included on the season 7 DVD of Bullshit.

    I hear it’s not on their website any more, either.

    O, brave new world, that has such people in it…

  13. Wien says:

    The notion that Islam itself is a tolerant religion is laughably absurd. Perhaps compared to Christianity in the 7th century.

    The Quran — “God’s word” — contains plenty of hate directed towards homosexuals, apostates, Jews, Christians, and unbelievers in general. While chiding Christians and Jews as unbelievers, it somewhat lets them off as “People of the Book” but there is no such remittance for polytheists or anyone outside the Abraham fold.

    Individual Muslims can obviously be good or bad, just like Christians and Jews, but the closer they adhere to “God’s word” the more dangerous they become. Just like Christians and Jews.

  14. jmzero says:

    I think the comments here have been pretty sad.

    I think it’s clearly more dangerous for a high-profile American performer to insult Islam than to insult Christianity (or recycling).

    Anyone really want to disagree with that? Really? Yes, I understand Christianity has committed atrocities through the ages. Yes, I know abortion doctors get threatened by Christians all the time.

    But we’re not arguing about some cosmic scoreboard of badness or something, we’re talking specifically about whether a particular behavior is likely to have negative consequences. Is anyone surprised that Christians haven’t responded to getting ribbed by someone in the media? And does anyone doubt that a small group of Muslims do react to this kind of thing with credibly serious threats? Again, this isn’t about some scoreboard of civilization goodness, it’s about a rational evaluation of risk.

    So, given that risk (or ignoring it, even), what moral obligation are Penn and Teller failing here? Why should they have to make fun of Islam if they don’t want to? Or are people mad at them for their rational self-preservation? Or are people mad at them for telling the truth about why they’re behaving this way?

    And how many people are mad at both Penn and Teller for acknowledging the quite likely violent response and thus not poking fun, and also mad at the Facebookers who poked fun by drawing Muhammed (irresponsibly, because they should have known it would make people mad)? Shouldn’t we say that those people were non-bigoted, because they apparently believed they would be safe to make those drawings? Or something?

    Really, most of the posts here just seem like thoughtless, reflexive contrarianism – as though, just because often Islam is criticized when it shouldn’t be, it should therefore be immune from any kind of negative comment.

    • Anonymous says:

      “I think it’s clearly more dangerous for a high-profile American performer to insult Islam than to insult Christianity (or recycling).”

      I agree, but the question is: how dangerous is it really in absolute terms?

      In any given year, about 1 in 10,000 Americans will be killed in car crashes. That’s a lifetime risk of about 1 in 100. If a celebrity like Jilette does a show criticizing Islam, what are the odds that he will be killed by Islamic militants because of it? There have been a few high profile cases where a critic of Islam ended up on the wrong side of a fatwa. Most of those critics were Muslims themselves, but sometimes a non-Muslim gets someone pissed off enough to provoke an attack. But how often does someone high-profile criticize Islam and nothing bad happens? You probably don’t remember (or never even heard about) most of those times, because nothing happened as a result.

      Terrorism is effective because the effects are dramatic and people grossly overestimate the odds of something similar happening to them. In reality, you are at greater risk of winning the lottery than dying from many of the things that people fear most, including and especially terrorism. (And, keep in mind that the odds of a randomly selected person in the developed world dying in the next 24 hours are roughly 1 in 30,000; as compared to the 1 in 13,500,000 chance of winning a pick 6/49 lottery with any given ticket.)

  15. Roger Krueger says:

    There are plenty of groups who react to criticism in shameful ways. But no one significant currently kills for mere speech other than organized crime and Islam.

    To be sure, Christianity of centuries past was far more ruthless at this sort of evil than Islam is now. But this isn’t about history, or moral superiority, it’s about current risk level.

    I think many Muslims are decent folk who just want to live their lives. But some branches of the Islamic hierarchy are exceptionally fond of threatening to kill anyone they disagree with. They succeed often enough to make sure everyone takes their threats seriously. This is not just a few isolated wackos like the abortion killers or McVeigh, this is business-as-usual for them.

    It’s good to disdain bigotry, but that’s not an excuse for willful disregard of a genuine threat.

  16. Neon Tooth says:

    Why don’t Christian Americans get mad about ribbing by such guys? Well for one, they do. For another they run the show in this country. There’s not much to be angry about when you’re the tyrant rather than the underdog, and it’s obviously better comedy to go after the people with power. These kind of intellectually dishonest comparisons always fail to notice that one religion completely dominates the Western world, while members of that religion are also dropping bombs on people in the East.

    Furthermore Libertarianism is an ideology for petulant, selfish children who refuse to acknowledge that they’re part of a society and a civilization.

  17. Alessandro Cima says:

    Christopher Hitchens criticizes Islam quite freely (‘God Is Not Great’). In fact, he criticizes all religion freely, without worrying that someone might come along and do a drive-by shooting on him.

    I think a lot of people watch too much television really. I know a lot of Muslims that you can walk up and give the finger to and they’ll still buy you a nice hot cup of coffee.

    Every time you think about a Muslim with a gun you’re really just taking a big fat cop out.

  18. osmo says:

    So nothing on the fact that they are more or less PR-staff for the CATO institute?

    • agger says:

      Ah – if that’s true it does explain something!

      Re: My own previous comment: So many typos! :-( That’s what I get for staying out in the sunny weather all day …

    • Bionicrat2 says:

      True that.

    • Anonymous says:

      We all know why they won’t go after libertarians or global warming critics – maybe this is more interesting?

      • Anonymous says:

        It makes no sense for libertarians to go after libertarianism. You can’t make a show explaining why something is bullshit, if you don’t actually believe that. Let’s leave attacking certain ideas to people who actually disagree with them.

        Of course, like everyone else, P&T are allowed to have and express their own opinions. Just be glad that they’re honest about what they believe, and don’t pretend that they are in any way neutral of objective. Claiming that would really be… bullshit.

  19. steers says:

    Anon, you’re so screwed up. Yuck!

  20. agger says:

    About Islam, I call bullshit. People are criticizing Islam all the kind. Way too many extreme right extremists are spewing really unpleasant hatred against Muslims and Islam on their blogs, all the time. I’ve not heard of anyone being actually harmed because of it, or at least only anectodically, not significant the way people are still harmed for being Black, sometimes even for law enforcement. If the guy really think attacking or satirizing Islam is “dangerous”, he’s an idiot.

    • djdole says:

      “I’ve not heard of anyone being actually harmed because of it, or at least only anectodically, not significant the way people are still harmed for being Black, sometimes even for law enforcement. If the guy really think attacking or satirizing Islam is “dangerous”, he’s an idiot.

      You don’t pay attention much then…or only selectively pay attention… or are incapable of using Google (or unwilling).

      Here’s a few for one famous satirist:
      http_://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?nid=4957
      http_://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/2010/01/02/mo-toon-artist-kurt-westergaard-survives-murder-attempt-by-axe-wielding-terrorist/
      http_://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/2010/05/15/home-of-swedish-modog-artist-lars-vilks-fire-bombed/

    • abrakadabra says:

      you are looking at a very small finger print, news media and your anger about anything you might have been even trying to explain or describe doesn’t make any sense.
      why do people not ask the right questions,
      why do people come to conclusions on mis-information,
      gl hf

    • peterbruells says:

      Agger, you haven’t?

      Well, lets see, Salman’s Rushdie still hiding, Kurt Westergard still is under constant police protection.

      Both are lucky – Theo van Gogh wasn’t.

      • Anonymous says:

        Dr. George Tiller wasn’t so lucky, and neither were the kids in the daycare in Oklahoma city, all dead because a Christian became a violent terrorist.

        I see no evidence that, when poverty and oppression are taken into account, that Islam is any more dangerous than Christianity. In fact, Christianity’s violent past is far more difficult to rationalize than Islam’s.

        Violent extremists are violent extremists, regardless of their religion.

      • sum.zero says:

        because, of course, christian extremists have never intimidated or killed anyone over their beliefs… oh, wait…

        that’s a broad brush you’re painting with there.

        • Brainspore says:

          Sum.Zero: Agger said he’d never heard of anyone getting hurt for criticizing Islam, Peter just filled him in.

          • sum.zero says:

            i apologize. i misread the intention of the post.

          • agger says:

            Nopes, what i meant to say is that I heard about it

            anectodically, not statistically significant like the way people are still harmed for being Black, sometimes even by law enforcement.

            And like I also said, right-wing idiots are spewing hatred about Muslims and Islam all the time without getting harmed.

            Like other commenters on this one, I say Mr. Penn here comes across as seriously bigoted.

          • Rindan says:

            Like other commenters on this one, I say Mr. Penn here comes across as seriously bigoted.

            So he is bigoted for NOT doing a show about how Islam is bullshit? I suppose he would also be a big old bigot if he did do a show about how Islam is bullshit too? Basically, you are saying he is a nasty old bigot no matter what he does then? Srsly.

            The fact that these guys piss off such a broad range of people just makes me love them a little more.

    • Anonymous says:

      People who write negative blog articles on Islam usually are small and don’t have a large enough audience for the massive religion to worry about, but those with a much larger influence are the ones radical Islamic followers want to silence. After South Parks episode with Mohammed the staff of South Park was threatened with violence, and this was very recently

    • jackdavinci says:

      I don’t know. Did anything ever come from the South Park, Salman Rushdie, and Mohammed cartoon fiascos? Maybe no one ended up actually dead, but surely the death threats had a chilling effect on both the creators of the works in question, and their families?

      • Trent Hawkins says:

        “Did anything ever come from the South Park, Salman Rushdie, and Mohammed cartoon fiascos?”

        South Park creators got death threats sent to their families and I think Comedy Central had to close one of their buildings due to bomb threats

        The group making the threats was a radical Islamic group based in New York.

    • Micah says:

      I’ve not heard of anyone being actually harmed because of it, or at least only anectodically,

      See, e.g., the Jyllands-Posten cartoon riots, Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh, Trey Parker, etc.

      Only one of those represents an actual murder, but there is no shortage of credible death threats involved with the others.

      …not significant the way people are still harmed for being Black, sometimes even for law enforcement.

      Nobody here is advocating discrimination or violence against Muslims or saying Muslims are inherently violent or bad people. Jillette is simply stating (in a somewhat hysterical, but nonetheless satirical, way) that he doesn’t feel comfortable making direct satire that criticizes Islam, because there are a significant number of Muslims out there who are crazy enough to issue death threats and sometimes even follow through with killing critics of the Religion of Peace™.

      If anything, your “Muslim/black” analogy is exactly the opposite of the situation here. I’m not aware of any American black activist who has ever murdered a white person for criticizing the white community. On the other hand, you have people like James Earl Ray who did try to terrorize black America into submission the same way extremist Islamic supremacists try to terrorize the west.

      Is it bigotry to acknowledge terrorism? Is Colin Powell’s wife a bigot for not wanting her husband to run for president for fear of him being assassinated by anti-black racists?

      Bigotry sucks, but even the most die-hard, idealistic liberal has to acknowledge that a line must be drawn somewhere when it comes to tolerating violent intolerance.

      • Neon Tooth says:

        I’ll see you those victims of Islamic nuts for abortion doctors shot point blank in church, Olympic bombers and so on. Tim McVeigh identified as a “Libertarian” if I recall correctly…

        • Micah says:

          The abortion doctor thing is another good analogy indeed, but I think you missed my point.

          Is it bigotry for an obstetrician to say he doesn’t do abortions because he’s afraid of the nutcase anti-abortion people?

          If not, how is it bigotry for a satirist to say that Islam is off limits for his satire because he’s afraid of getting killed?

    • Anonymous says:

      Salman Rushdi living in hiding under death threat for 30 years and will be for the rest of his life is not enough? Then maybe this?

      Wikipedia: “As of early 2010 Rushdie has not been physically harmed, but others connected with the book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book, was stabbed to death on 11 July 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month; William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, barely survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993, and Aziz Nesin, the Turkish language translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Sivas massacre on 2 July 1993 in Sivas, Turkey, which resulted in the deaths of 37 people.[4]“

    • Steaming Pile says:

      99.9999% of right-wing bloggers do not rise to the celebrity level that Penn Jillette does. Mr. Steaming Pile can rip on radical Islam all he wants, and nothing will happen because (1) they don’t know where I live, and (2) I’m nobody – far too small a target for any would-be terrorist to bother with. Penn Jillette rips on radical Islam on Showtime, and all Hell will break loose, I can guarantee you that.

      As for the Church of Scientology, they won’t declare fatwa against anyone because they’re too keen on continuing to make lots and lots of money from impressionable idiots like John Travolta. If somebody threw a bomb at Matt Parker and/or Trey Stone because of what they did to Chef, you can bet the Church of Scientology will be declared a terrorist organization, and you’ll see how committed they are to their religion once the money dries up (probably not much). So they use lawyers to conduct their jihad instead. Big difference.

      • Anonymous says:

        And of course, you can’t find any truly famous pundits who publically criticize Islam. None at all. It’d be a waste of time to look, don’t even try.

  21. Anonymous says:

    I’ve spoken with Muslims for years about controversial issues. You can see some of this dialogue at http://www.bible-quran.com. If you speak the truth in love and respectfully, then you don’t have anything to fear. Penn, it sounds to me like your fear is more because of your method than it is about Muslims.
    Sincerely yours in Christ,
    Aaron

  22. Alessandro Cima says:

    “We haven’t tackled Scientology because Showtime doesn’t want us to. Maybe they have deals with individual Scientologists —- I’m not sure. And we haven’t tackled Islam because we have families. ”

    That’s a rather bigoted comment on the face of it. You’d better look at Mr. Jillette a little harder, I would say.

    What he’s saying is that he won’t talk about Muslims because he thinks Muslims will kill him or his family. Ridiculous. What does this guy have to say about dark-skinned people in hoods? I’d love to hear it. I’m all ears.

    And since when do we only criticize nice people? If he’s scared, he shouldn’t do the show. Maybe he should call the show ‘Weak Piss.’

  23. waqas says:

    Islam is religion of peace its a complete way of life.i wonder why people say negative things about islam with out understanding and reading Quran and call it freedom of speach.simple thing is say what ever you say we cant stop media and all these things but read islam from open heart you will get to know why this world is made and where we will eventually go.there is only one God and on judgement day what ever you say God will do justice and will show what is right and wrong.peace for all .

  24. grimc says:

    So he doesn’t attack Scientology because of business considerations, and doesn’t attack Islam because he’s a scaredy cat. What a hero.

  25. Pipenta says:

    Christopher Hitchens and Penn Jillette aren’t comparable.

    Jillette is an entertainer. He’s a magician, for pity’s sake. Why do you even care about his opinion on religion or recycling or, my gawd, global warming?

    I don’t want to know. Oh please, I don’t want to know. I just want to laugh at his jokes and his magic tricks and his over-the-top stage persona.

    I used to be huge fan. Now I want to put my fingers in my ears and go NYAH NYAH NYAH, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!

    Only I can hear you. And it’s bumming me out in the worst way.

    • Alessandro Cima says:

      Why aren’t Hitchens and Jillette comparable? They are both concerned with how one might or might not express one’s self in relation to a religion. One decides to speak freely, the other decides to be a bigot. It’s an interesting comparison I think.

    • Ito Kagehisa says:

      It’s OK, Pipenta, just remember Penn is one of those guys who is “always on stage.” One hundred percent of what flies out of his mouth is entertaining nonsense – like you said, his over-the-top obnoxious stage persona, which is how he makes money.

      Think of him saying these things very fast with lots of spittle, flying hair, and wild gesturing and then cutting off Teller’s tie with a big pair of scissors. Does that help?

  26. chgoliz says:

    I find the fact that they claim

    [quote]We haven’t tackled Scientology because Showtime doesn’t want us to. Maybe they have deals with individual Scientologists —- I’m not sure.[/quote]

    much more “horrific” than not being willing to talk about Islam because of fear of retribution against their families.

  27. neverminding says:

    Whether or not he wants to tackle Islam is irrelevant. It’s his show (or Showtime’s depending on how you read that comment) and he can do whatever he wants since it’s entertainment and not public policy.

    BUT, his justification for not covering Islam is absurd fear mongering that plays right into the hands of the people that are too tired and overworked to fight off the nonsense spewing from Fox. What he just said is nothing more than old fashioned bigotry. The kind we’ve worked so hard for so long to overcome.

    I like Mr Jillette’s books and magic and have occasionally been entertained by his show, but now that I know he refuses to use that big beautiful brain of his, I’m going to refuse to support his professional career.

    That’s all you can really do when someone does something this stupid.

  28. jramboz says:

    Refusal to criticize, or very clever paralipsis? You be the judge.

  29. bja009 says:

    “Tim McVeigh identified as a “Libertarian” if I recall correctly…”

    Yes, and therefore all libertarians are going to detonate fertilizer bombs in federal buildings. Better report BJA009 to the feds before he blows up the Gateway Arch – he’s been known to occasionally support libertarians, after all.

    ITT: Lots of people use broad and inaccurate assumptions to argue with each other about the accuracy of their broad assumptions. I’m going to go have a drink and be entertained b an episode of Myth Busters, and then an episode of Bullshit.

  30. DrRufus says:

    Last show I saw them “boldly” went out to “debunk”
    a poor elderly woman teaching Tai Chi. Prety lame.

    Next they are going to show kids that Santa Claus is a fake.

  31. imag says:

    Well said, JMZero. I am astonished, reading the comments here, that people are calling them racist for this.

    I am not at all anti-Muslim. I live in a diverse community and have Muslim friends. I have never, in fact, met a Muslim that I know, who I didn’t like. I don’t blame Islam for the WTC bombings. I don’t think it’s more of a violent religion at heart than Christianity, or Judaism. That Old Testament is crazy.

    All that said, I wouldn’t do a high-profile show calling out Islam as “bullshit”. I don’t think it’s media brainwashing or fear mongering or any of that; I think there are a limited subset of people who happen to be Muslim, who would be interested in causing violence to me or my family for calling their religion bullshit. That doesn’t – repeat – doesn’t, mean I think all Muslims are evil, or that Islam is evil.

    You people who just yell out “racist” are more knee-jerk than the people you are calling out. That label should be severe enough that people have to really deserve it. As far as I’m concerned, not calling a religion bullshit because of fear of retribution, after someone got killed for drawing a frickin’ cartoon, is not racist, it’s just being safe.

    As far as that, everyone has a right to try to be safe, as long as they are not hurting anyone else – even if they are being irrational. How some of you decide to sling shit at them for it is beyond me…

  32. not_kevitivity says:

    One of their very best episodes was the show they did on the recycling industrial complex. They detailed just how pointless, costly, and even destructive (in the case of paper recycling) it is.

    According to what Penn and Teller found, The largest polluter of water in the US is the paper recycling industry. Recycling paper is entirely pointless since it’s a 100% renewable resource (we don’t cut down virgin forests for paper, we farm paper trees) and paper trash is bio degradable.

    • Alex_M says:

      Yeah, that’s bullshit indeed. Recycling paper is neither economically or environmentally pointless.

      The water pollution from recycling paper isn’t necessarily greater than water pollution from producing new paper. Paper is a more refined product than wood chips. And we don’t cut down trees for the sole purpose of making paper _at all_. Trees are cut for lumber (an even more refined product). It’s the wood not suitable for that which gets made into paper. And once paper has been recycled so many times it’s no longer useful (because the fiber lengths are too short), then it can be burned for the energy.

      I took a course in paper and pulp technology for my chemical engineering degree, and I suggest you do the same if you want to know how it really works, rather than listen to those guys.

      • Anonymous says:

        Up in Minnesota there are tree farms that plant fast growing trees specifically to make paper. The trees don’t grow very large because they are not making lumber out of them, they just need the pulp. No point in waiting years and years when lumber is not the ultimate product.

      • kc0bbq says:

        “we don’t cut down trees for the sole purpose of making paper _at all_. Trees are cut for lumber (an even more refined product).”

        False. The wood used around here for paper is only used for paper. It’s aspen, a clear, clean wood that regrows itself with no intervention because an several hundred acres can be a single plant with many stems. It grows fast, and stems die fairly young.

        You can’t recycle paper more than a couple times and you need fresh fibers almost every time. Cities that mandate excessively high amounts of recycled fiber in paper have to import paper. The fibers break down and are not suitable for use fairly quickly.

        Wood used for lumber is generally unsuitable for paper and the waste goes into different products or is sold as fuel.

    • peterbruells says:

      Hmm…. Do you have some links about this? Paper trees might be renewable, but there’s lots of energy in first generation paper, from harvesting the trees, shredding them, and so on.

    • Steaming Pile says:

      Waste paper also makes good fuel. And wood ash is supposedly good for agriculture. My tomato plants sure like it.

  33. Brainspore says:

    “Bullshit!” has its moments but it’s often more “anti-authority” than “pro-critical thinking.” For that you have to turn to the Mythbusters.

    • ivan256 says:

      You mean Mythbusters, the show where they could get the answer right by doing some rudimentary arithmetic, but instead use a poorly designed experiment to come to the incorrect conclusion?

      Or were you being sarcastic and I missed it?

      • Brainspore says:

        You mean Mythbusters, the show where they could get the answer right by doing some rudimentary arithmetic, but instead use a poorly designed experiment to come to the incorrect conclusion?

        Arithmetic only gives you the right answer if you use the right equations and know all the variables. Real life is much more complicated than that- otherwise we wouldn’t need scientists or engineers, just mathematicians.

        Mythbusters is not the gold standard for scientific precision nor should it be seen as such. It is, however, one of the best shows on television in terms of fostering critical thinking and experimentation. They are also known for revisiting some of their old experiments when someone points out a flaw in their methodology.

        • retchdog says:

          Yeah, but the point is that their experiments ARE often just as simple-minded as the rudimentary calculations would be…

          It’s still worth it for the spectacle though, at least for young kids. If even 20% of them grok the point of idealized experiments, it’ll have been more effective than basic arithmetic hour.

    • Anonymous says:

      you must have spores in your brain if you think mythbusters is ‘critical thinking’. Dont get me wrong, its a fun show, but its rare that they approach a subject with critical thinking and rigor. They are focused on entertainment, not on actually finding out any sort of truth. I dont think they are being purposefully misleading, but I disagree with their methods often.

      That being said I like the way they use experiments to ATTEMPT to prove or disprove things people believe to be true. In that manner they are being very scientific.

  34. Neon Tooth says:

    What this boils down to is power, who has it, who wields it, and who is for the most part the victim of it. Such self examination is not the stuff of tv shows, or those who don’t have the ability, or are too proud, arrogant and comfortable to recognize it.

  35. Anonymous says:

    Hum. You know what? I see a lot of people saying “islam is a religion of peace! This guy is a wanker for saying otherwise!”

    Friends of mine were converted to meat vapour when the WTC collapsed, a mass murder committed by radical islamists. One of them was on IRC at the time, and his disconnect was like my beating heart being ripped from my chest as the tower went down.

    Radical islam murdered my friends.

    I know radical christianism murdered a lot of people in subsequent years. That too is abhorrent. The deeds done in the name of “gods” is sickening, and I despise it.

    For Gilette to say that he won’t criticise Islam because he has a family is a fair comment. Radical Islamists are murderous bastards who see no lines of demarcation, who do not recognise noncombatants, who will kill little girls and little boys to make their point. These are the breed of folk who tore a schoolteacher limb from limb for the “sin” of teaching women to read and write.

    Radical xTians are as bad. They have invaded countries illegally and for no reason other than putatively potential profit – and managed to bankrupt the First World in the offing.

    Your organised religions disgust and repel me. Your apologies for them sicken me to the core. Your gods of the Desert are ancient, useless things created back when Humanity didn’t understand how a singe damned thing worked, and your continued demands for respect I can meet only with scorn.

    The time for respect of religion is past, gone and unlamented. Ge the hell out of our way, and let us build a world based on understanding how things work, not on woolly thinking and Wishing Makes It So.

    Islam kills. Christianity kills. Religion Kills.

    Just. Stop. It.

    Stop pretending that your imaginary friend is worth *even one* human life.

    I’m not being funny, but if Penn Gillette did throw out a show attacking Islam, someone *would* try to kill him, his family members, even his dog.

    So I tell you – I respect no religion. Because religion kills.

    End rant.

    • Godfree says:

      Anon at 82: Right on. *Fist bump*

    • mati says:

      Oy. This whole “religion kills” meme needs a rest. People kill. For any excuse they can dream up. If we look at the major genocides of the 20th century, you’ll find as many atheists on the roll call as theists: Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc. Does that many atheism promotes a culture of violence? Of course not. People will kill people for just about any excuse that one can conceive of. Every World Cup cable news runs stories about fans who are killed by other fans. So I guess maybe Penn and Teller should avoid taking on the FIFA officiating scandal?

      • DeeEss says:

        mati, the major difference is that no one is killing in the name of atheism or using atheism as a banner to kill. Likewise, probably no one is going to threaten your life for saying something negative about atheistic books or beliefs, and I’ll even bet that if you made a movie that supported a non-atheistic position, there would be no protesters.

        The dictators you cited weren’t having people killed in order to support a belief in atheism or shut down discussion about it, they were doing it to prop up their governments and to seize and retain power.

        • Anonymous says:

          the major difference is that no one is killing in the name of atheism or using atheism as a banner to kill.

          Man, you really need to spend more time in the library. Try the “world history” section.

          The dictators you cited weren’t having people killed in order to support a belief in atheism or shut down discussion about it, they were doing it to prop up their governments and to seize and retain power.

          Uh, that’s the exact same reason that religions kill people, you know.

          As someone else said, people use whatever excuse works – for some, that’s religion, for others it’s atheism. Since there are more religious people than atheists, more atrocities are going to be rationalized on religious grounds than on atheism. Duh. Ya ever notice that the vast majority of imprisoned murderers in the USA are self-proclaimed Christians? News flash, that’s because most people in the USA are self-proclaimed Christians.

          Islam is the whipping boy for today’s pseudo-intellectual talking heads. It used to be atheists – those Godless Commies!! Never mind that the jihadis are to mainstream Islam as the Ku Klux Klan is to mainstream Christianity – we wouldn’t want actual logic and reason to penetrate the popular discourse, would we?

        • Anonymous says:

          “mati, the major difference is that no one is killing in the name of atheism or using atheism as a banner to kill.”

          Maybe not as much anymore, but Christians (and, well, most of the other major and minor religions) were driven underground in the old CCCP, PRC, DPRK, and Cuba due to secret police actions outright killing them or putting people into “reeducation camps” designed to kill them.

          I’ve heard similar things about Vietnam and Cambodia, but haven’t studied them enough to know for sure in those cases.

    • Anonymous says:

      “Islam kills. Christianity kills. Religion Kills.”

      Wrong. Humanity kills. Religion is just sometimes a convenient excuse. Eliminate religion as an excuse, and we will (and have) found other things to fight about.

  36. Anonymous says:

    Seriously, screw Penn and Teller. They acknowledge that the Christians who send them death threats are scattered weirdos in garages, but they go on to paint 1.2 billion followers of Islam with a pretty broad brush. They are just racist, dicks, and pretty poor entertainment too.

  37. Anonymous says:

    As the Christian leadership said (when asked how it would be possible to tell Christians and Jews living peaceably in the Umma from the helpless Muslim women and children the valiant Christian soldiery were being commanded to slaughter):

    Kill them all – God will know his own!

    So they did. But the Christians did take some time off to rape a lot of girls and cute young men before butchering them. That was OK, see, because afterwards they were granted absolution by fat, perfumed men wearing dresses.

    Maybe you didn’t learn this in school. Maybe you don’t even believe it. But Muslims all taught this. And they know it did really happen. They are also taught that Saladin tried to be honorable and play fair with the Christians. How far did that get him, eh? Six feet under.

    • Anonymous says:

      Nothing like going back hundreds of years to try and make a comparison. Although I will grant you that the Muslims of today are more in line with the Christians in the 6th century. But you keep holding onto that belief. You never know, you may run into a Muslim OR a 5th century Christian any day now.

    • Anonymous says:

      Have you actually studied the Crusades?

      Saladin was nice and fair to the Christians he conquered, and he managed to take over quite a chunk of the Middle East and unite the Muslim kingdoms before dieing.

      Also Muslim law treats citizens taken over by conquest as ok people and lets them decide if they want to change faith. Muslims are given privilege, but non-Muslims are still treated fairly and with respect. He wasn’t doing anything special, he was just following his own laws.

      • Anonymous says:

        “Also Muslim law treats citizens taken over by conquest as ok people and lets them decide if they want to change faith. Muslims are given privilege, but non-Muslims are still treated fairly and with respect. He wasn’t doing anything special, he was just following his own laws.”

        Eh, depends on whose in charge where and when. A big chunk of his army was angry because he tried to forbid taking Christians as slaves when they finally took Jersualem. Their local variation of Islam and culture said it was okay to loot and take slaves of vanquished foes, but it was against Saladin’s interpretation. I wouldn’t be surprised if differences between him and his underlings like this were what got him his several failed visits from the Hashshashin.

        Oddly, you see similar things out of the Knights Templar at times. I have several translated Arabic Muslim accounts of Templars kicking Christian pilgrims out of a combo Mosque/Church and apologizing to the Muslims for the pilgrims’ rudeness when the pilgrims kept interfering with Muslim prayers.

    • phisrow says:

      “Kill them all, God will know his own.” was a (very snappy) line from the Albigensian crusades.

      A bloody; but intra-european and intra-christian affair, occuring mostly in what would now be part of southern France. It isn’t news that Medieval christians could be real pricks; but anybody who thinks that the muslims had a dog in that fight is mislead.

      • Anonymous says:

        Nicely nicely, Phisrow! I wondered if anyone would catch that howler, but they’re all too busy being offended.

        As-Salaam-Alaikum, peace be upon you.

  38. Anonymous says:

    Penn and Teller have both been nice and reasonable people throughout their entire career. I’ve read their books and gone to their Vegas and Broadway shows. I’ve watched their TV series too. And they never fail to be entertaining and fun. That’s their act. They entertain people.

    Anyone criticizing them for not tackling the hard-hitting issues or going after the tough targets is missing the point. They are a couple of guys who enjoy performing and making people smile. If a little education slips in there from time to time, all the better.

    Instead of casting aspersions on these guys in the comments, I challenge any of you people to go out and do your own expose on Islamic Extremism or Scientology. Then let us know how it went for you.

  39. Anonymous says:

    @Brainspore – You think Mythbusters is “pro-critical thinking”? They like to present their “experiments” as scientific and authoritative but they are really nothing more than wanting to see something blown up. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good explosion just as much as the next guy. But in each and every one of their shows there are serious problems with their experiments, what they use for a control group or a standard of measurement and for the conclusions.

    There’s even been shows where they’ve not been able to duplicate the results of a “myth”, declared it “Busted” and then at the end of the show reveal that it really did happened and was documented.

    Mythbusters is entertainment and nothing more. You want science, watch Bill Nye, you want critical thinking, well, saddly that’s becoming a rare commodity in this country.

  40. sdmikev says:

    I’d rather just watch those dorky brother figure out ways to blow stuff up..

  41. Anonymous says:

    I think the worst thing you can say about a group in a free society is that you’re afraid to talk about it — I can’t think of anything more horrific.

    Yes. Very well said. And what happens when people or organisations express their opinion about what the state of Israel is doing to Palestinians? We fear being labelled anti-semitic if we are not Jewish, or self-loathing Jews if we are Jewish; and some of us fear losing our jobs – especially media jobs.

    I think we need to add another one to Penn’s list.

    And when we realise that silence is consent, this is of course all the more horrific.

    (I have an account here but for this I am anon)

  42. Anonymous says:

    Look into yourself, may be i am a bullshit. No need to analyze others. Let everyone take care of his own religion.

  43. spcfgt says:

    It seems that the spin on this focuses on things these guys are NOT doing rather than what they are doing.

    What exactly is so bad about not tackling those two issues? Why can’t these two men leave them for someone else? Why does it have to be them? Is there some sort of check list that debunking shows have to fulfill that I’m not aware of?

    And so what if they belong to the CATO institute? What exactly is so bad about being politically active?

    Do they have an agenda? Sure, debunking bullshit. What possible harm could that do?

    Plus, it’s a TV show, not public policy. If you don’t like their show, don’t watch it. If they don’t cover things you want to see, write them a letter and see if you can have some discourse about it. Whining on a blog isn’t going to change anything.

    • Anonymous says:

      Do they have an agenda? Sure, debunking bullshit. What possible harm could that do?

      Do they have an agenda? Yes, promoting Cato Institute values; they will debunk things that don’t agree with them, and ignore things that do. If you want an example of the harm, you need look no further than this thread, where it is mentioned that paper recycling is the largest polluter of water in the US, when it produces less pollution than making it fresh.

      It always suprises me to see how many people are against complaining in comments. If that isn’t going to change anything, what is meta-complaining supposed to do?

    • Anonymous says:

      It’s not about the show; it’s the fact that this man believes Islam is evil. He clearly reads too much right-wing press.

      He even mentions death threats from Christians, and passes it all off as ‘It’s ok, cause Christians are good people, or just a bit weird’. It may be news to him that the vast majority of those who follow Islam are also good people.

      Maybe if he lived in a middle-eastern country he’d be pretty scared of taking the piss out of Christians in fear of his family being sent to Guantanamo; and a probably more realistic fear it’d be.

      He can deal with whatever he likes on his show; not covering it isn’t the issue; but insulting an entire religion – not based on what they believe in, but his warped and bigoted view on what it is – that’s the problem.

  44. yri says:

    Back in the 90s, my graduate advisor at a prominent public university was teaching an “Islam in Literature” class, and he put Rushdie’s “Satanic Verses” on the syllabus. In conversation, he told me (with a laugh) that he’d gotten “a call from some of the Brothers” asking him to reconsider.

    Later, at the first lecture, he came in with two black eyes and a bandaged nose. He read a terse statement about how he decided that it was inappropriate to include that work in the course at this time, and was removing it from the syllabus. That was the entire lecture for the day.

    So no, I don’t think Penn is being racist here, nor is he being an idiot. Sadly, he’s merely being prudent.

  45. Anonymous says:

    Christ, what an asshole.

  46. Anonymous says:

    And what brilliant argument does Teller imagine to put forth against Islam? Judging by his criticism of Christianity, he would accomplish little more than to reassure those who already agree with him and give them more words with which to strengthen their faith in the non-existence of faith. That being said, I appreciate his honesty in explaining why it is that he doesn’t wish to confront Islam. Emotional sensitivity and political correctness aside, what more could Teller say other than Islam being a collection of Laws and Demands of an unattainable standard which create the hope of now being about to “do” right because they “know” right. Yet these Laws ironically stir up the same ravenously rebellious impulse in a person that a “Do Not Touch” sign has on a plain undesirable vase. In a desperate attempt to rid himself of guilt, shame, inferiority and condemnation.. the “religious” man takes “extreme” desperate measures to Make Himself right before God. This “religious law” has no power to change human nature and rather just agitates and amplifies it. Law has manifested the darkest aspects of human nature. After all, you never know how desperately evil you are until you try really hard to be good. And yet, the irony is.. man can Never Make Himself right, just as a broken person could never make himself whole. It’s a logical impossibility; you cannot do without first being. But when the “religious” man finally reaches the end of himself he will either abandon his religion and begin to build faith in moral relativism and the non-existence of sin (deviation from the perfect divine will) OR he will come to his senses and acknowledge his weakness and his need for the saving grace of God. What is there to “debunk”? The inferiority complex and guilty conscience of man? The inherent realization that we all fall far short from expressing the stunning harmony and awesomeness we perceive in the universe around us? Penn would be better suited debunking his own existence and leaving the theological arguments to theologians. I offer that same advice to many people on this forum.

  47. Anonymous says:

    I really couldn’t care less about their politics, it’s their failure as entertainers that drove me away. That Bullshit show has nothing to offer me as a viewer (except I think I caught half of one that had breasts in it…breasts are nice)

  48. Broken Window says:

    Penn, you filthy racist! STOP avoiding attacking muslims!

  49. Xenu says:

    “Bullshit” is a good title for the show, since much of what’s on there is patently false.

    Penn and Teller should stick to magic tricks.

  50. bjacques says:

    It’s Penn & Teller’s show, by way of Showtime, so what they cover or don’t is their business.

    That said, their reasons for not “going after” Islam and Scientology are cowardly.

    Frankly, I wonder how a show like theirs could really go after Islam. There’s no Pope of Islam, just a book. It’s got basic rules on how Allah says one should live. Islamic law, Sharia, is law based on interpretation of the Koran. How individual Muslims, congregations and sects interpret either and behave is pretty much according to their inclination and circumstance. Calling “Bullshit” on Muslims for beheading schoolteachers or flying planes into office buildings makes as much sense as, well, calling out Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh. Some people are bastards whatever their beliefs were.

    Also, Islam, aside from the life of Muhammad, isn’t larded with easily-debunked miracles like Christianity is, so there’s no purchase there either.

    I guess if they really wanted to, Penn & Teller could find something about Islam that fits their format, but I personally don’t see the point. I also don’t see the danger. They’re far more likely to embarrass themselves and depres viewers by scoring the wrong sorts of points without making any meaningful criticism of it than they are to be shot at.

    Scientology, on the other hand, is all about miracles. Miracles for breakfast, even. That and documented fraud and other bad behavior. As above, P&T might as well leave the bad behavior to journalists and the courts. But in “Cruel Tricks For Dear Friends,” Penn & Teller cite approvingly the Tonight Show segment in which Johnny Carson debunks “psychic” Uri Geller, because “pretending to have powers that don’t exist is EVIL.” That’s their own standard, and they’ve fallen from it.

    From L. Ron Howard’s and “Clears’” purported powers over “Matter, Energy, Space & Time” to the efficacy of E-meter sessions and horse-doctor’s doses of Niacin during saunas, from their cosmology, admittedly no sillier than most, to the existence of “Thetans,” bullshit is in Scientology’s DNA.

    Scientology are a much worthier target than Islam. While some Muslim clerics are indeed bastards, all Scientology officers are bastards, because their holy writ requires it.

    If Showtime’s lawyers showed the same bravery against Scientology that they do against file-sharing, it’s be no contest.

  51. Rindan says:

    What is even more fucked up about this is that he isn’t accusing every single fucking Muslim of wanting to kill him if he does a show on how their mysticism is dumb. He is saying that out of the couple billion or so Muslims in the world, there are enough where he isn’t giddy about pissing them off because he has a family. That isn’t a declaration that all Muslims are evil, just that a subset of them make him not all that giddy about doing a show on how dumb their religion is.

    I personally think that his fears are pretty unjustified. I doubt that he is likely to attract the attention of other Islam critics that HAVE been attacked did, but that doesn’t suddenly make him an Islam hating bigot. It makes him afraid of a subset of Muslims. Hell, I am afraid of a subset of Muslims. You won’t catch me hitch hiking in Afghanistan because… you know… I fear a subset of Muslims too.

    For fucks sakes… the entire declaring someone a bigot because they won’t declare your religion bullshit argument is completely off the scale.

    “Those guys are bigots because they won’t do a show on how Islam is fucking stupid!”

    Do your logic filters not explode when you just say that out loud?

  52. Anonymous says:

    Christians don’t have to be violent (yet) because they are in control of everything. Little stuff of comedians and such they can brush off but good luck saying you aren’t Christian and getting on the Supreme Court or being President.

    • deebeedee says:

      Check out http://www.persecution.com/ and see what are being done to Christians in the minority around the world.

      (in reply to anonymous: “Christians don’t have to be violent (yet) because they are in control of everything. Little stuff of comedians and such they can brush off but good luck saying you aren’t Christian and getting on the Supreme Court or being President.”)

      • Anonymous says:

        But not here. That’s the point. Where Christians (or any group) are the minority I’m sure that’s a different story.

    • coaxial says:

      At least the irony of you saying “good luck saying you aren’t Christian and getting on the Supreme Court” isn’t lost on one of us. Two Jews are on the court right now, and if Kagan gets confirmed, it will be three. A whole third. In case you’re wondering, the other two thirds are Catholics.

      Not a single born again evangelical among them. Nor an atheist either.

      Someday… Someday…. Then we’ll restore our pre-1954 pledge and money too.

    • Anonymous says:

      Right, because all justices and all current justices on the supreme court were/are christian:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices

  53. Anonymous says:

    If you don’t know what the Cato Institute is, think Rand Paul.

  54. Anonymous says:

    People, “mythbusters” and “bullshit” are entertainment.

    They aren’t real, they are just made-up nonsense that uses women’s breasts, common bigotries and absurd posturing to entertain you.

    You know, like Fox “News”.

  55. Anonymous says:

    Penn & Teller jumped the shark for me when they dissed the Dalai Lama. They were apparently stupid enough to believe the propaganda the PRC government puts out against him and “pre-liberated” Tibet.

  56. Red Zebra says:

    I remembered Pen & Teller as amazing magicians and comedians from my childhood. What happened? No longer funny, no longer magic :(

  57. Anonymous says:

    News flash: Penn & Teller are not journalists. They do entertainment, and do a damn good job of it. You people are holding them to the same principles that our news men/women are held to and it is just plain stupid. I don’t blame them for not taking on Islam. Look at the backlash that occurred because of the most recent South Park Muhammad episode.

    We shouldn’t be scared of these extremist fucks, but the bottom line is that they are dangerous. If Penn & Teller care too much for their families to put them in the cross-hairs of a dangerous organization, more power to them. Plus, we all know every religion is BS anyway, so I would rather them focus on other issues that are BS.

  58. Anonymous says:

    I am an ex-Muslim from Pakistan. In my experience, it is a really peaceful religion except overly sensitive about some issues. I am not talking about extremists who will interpret anything to suit their agenda, I’m talking about majority of the Muslims who are pretty liberal and indifferent compared to the extremists. I sincerely think that this show should talk about Islam and Scientology. There is so much wrong with religion, and it should be eradicated from our society. If you want a relationship with whatever God, it should be personal.

  59. osmo says:

    … I know allot of muslims and as of yet they haven’t killed me for all the shit I talk about theirs and others religion. Wierd. Maybe, just maybe, its so damn easy to just jump on the band wagon promoted by everyone and condemn someone you’ve never met nor know anything about.

    Its like saying all Americans hate gays and expect them to burn in hell because thats what you see on TV.

    Lets make religion pointless instead. Lets lessen its point to something individual and personal. To paint with a broad and dark brush is not the way – your just pandering to the racists and the islamists that way.

  60. Cyberwasteland says:

    That’s not a fucking argument. I too know a lot of Muslims and none of them rollerskate. That must mean not a single Muslim rollerskates, right?
    No! You effin idiot.

    You complain about generalizations, but your doing the exact same thing in reverse!

    “There are Muslim terrorists = all muslims are terrorists” is the same idiotic fallacy as “I know muslims who aren’t terrorists = extremist muslim terrorists are fairy tale”.

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