LulzSec leaks Arizona law enforcement papers (Updated with excerpts)

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300 Responses to “LulzSec leaks Arizona law enforcement papers (Updated with excerpts)”

  1. ibbers says:

    there’s prob some poor bastard(s) undercover right now who are in a world of hurt.

  2. Anonymous says:

    I understand that these hackers just want to try and prove something they don’t otherwise know about yet. We don’t necessarily know anything about what it is that needs exposed either. The fact of the matter is that there has been a heightened awareness of corruption under our Nation’s political system that unfortunately spilled over onto the rest of the world. World War Web. While these hackers think they might be able to expose something valuable for the media to jump on, they haven’t exposed it yet. Which I find VERY disappointing. These hackers waste their time exposing all of these things; yet, are too lazy to actually sort through the heap of documents. They’d much rather researchers do that job for them. I respected only Anonymous’ actions toward helping out rebels over seas. (But that was also Anon, not emberrassing Lulzsec.) I think if anyone has a chance at “taking the stand” per-say, it’s those pride and true of Anonymous.

    Although I always keep going back to this. If they really think they have something “big” and they’re going to these lengths, don’t you think they would have exposed these things already? Seeing how it is important that we take a stand against corruption. Well here’s your answer; THEY MAKE IT UP AS THEY GO. Please prove me wrong hackers. I think I speak for the public when i say we all smell something fishy, and we’re not even aboard the Lulzboat.

  3. MrCompletely says:

    it appears none of you grok lulzsec.

    they are quite plainly playing for keeps and the ‘lulz’ are both a mask and a nice bonus on the side.

    your opinions of their actions, or mine, are irrelevant.

    law enforcement has always hidden their crimes behind the fact that they also do “legitimate” law enforcement tasks. the result is that no one can do anything about any of their own crimes, because oh no, it will cause harmful fallout.

    which is true. it will. the corrupt hold the innocents in front of them as shields against retribution; ’twas ever thus, and it has always worked.

    the power of lulzsec is that they are not playing by those rules anymore.

    lulz aren’t just cute hacks against blowhard wannabe whitehats and blatantly evil megacorps. the real lulz come from chaos, and discomfiting the powerful in general, and disrupting the status quo.

    if you are concerned about social responsibility, you aren’t lulzsec.

    neither am I. nor do I endorse or condemn their actions, since doing so would be irrelevant.

    but I do think I understand them.

    hail eris!

    • Anonymous says:

      That was beautiful.

    • JProffitt71 says:

      Couldn’t they just have.. you know, chose the files that best represent all the corrupt crap in the force and gave the public real hard hitting exposure? Or at least kept the files that disclosed undercover/dangerous operations, perhaps as leverage? What they did is just.. its lazy, and possibly coming at the expense of a human being legitimately trying to make the world a better place. Read that sentence again and say they deserve it, I dare you.

      • travtastic says:

        protest movements

      • Anonymous says:

        What makes you think that this isn’t an organized selection of data? I’m betting they’re sitting on a lot more than what’s been released.

      • Anonymous says:

        Ignorance isn’t a good excuse anymore, anyone who think they are doing good for the world with a weapon is part of the problem.

      • mike says:

        Dare taken.

        They deserve it. If you are a cop, especially a cop in Arizona – you deserve for your cover to be blown. Absolutely. The war on drugs? The war on illegal immigrants? If you, JProffitt71, think those people are the good guys, then you are on the wrong side yourself. They are making the world a worse place, not a better one.

        Three cheers for Lulzsec! :-)

    • LegionofDynamicDiscord says:

      We are responsible for how much responsibility we have for this world and the entire universe. We are finally deciding that the status is not quo and our leaders are nothing but gluttonous, out of touch kings who must be dethroned if our planet is to every see another Renaissance.

      Lulzsec is doing something or other through computer networks, it is up to us to do something or other in the real world.

      Freedom IS free, until someone comes along and says otherwise.

      All Hail Discordia!

    • Anonymous says:

      … All Hail Discordia!

    • Anonymous says:

      Well said.

      It’s important to delineate organizations that are nominally under public control and those are aren’t. Yes, all groups with power behave similarly (similar genes, you know…), it’s important to hold publicly controlled organizations to higher standard than Lulzsec.

      I think lulzsec should be investigated and brought to trial for breaking the law, but it should be a lower priority than doing to the same to the actors within institutions we are responsible for as citizens. Just as we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than that which we hold others, we should hold public institutions to a higher standard than private.

    • enkiv2 says:

      Amen.

    • genre slur says:

      Indeed. Nothing is true, all is permissible — there is no friend anywhere. Many agencies acting from many different positions. Not a lot of ‘social respect’ to be found with most agencies. Look for the skepsozoic membrane on individuals — then express respect on that level. Tao ++wow

  4. Anonymous says:

    Whoa…I’m all for sticking it to the man and all but is Lulzsec still going to be lulzing when there is blood on its hands? Outing informants sounds like a pretty sensitive issue.

    • Anonymous says:

      [QUOTE]Whoa…I’m all for sticking it to the man and all but is Lulzsec still going to be lulzing when there is blood on its hands? Outing informants sounds like a pretty sensitive issue.[/QUOTE]

      … there is already blood on THEIR hands. even daily.
      But now it seems, you get scared it could be yours.
      If “others” blood it seems ok ?!?!

    • Anonymous says:

      i don’t really go for the “blood on their hands” argument. How many people die crossing the boarder each year? 500? how many from poverty? from corruption? lack of medical care? In Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan? If you want to play that game i’m pretty sure you can link all of us to the blood on all of our hands.

  5. Anonymous says:

    OK, to the people of LulzSec, since you are obviously still monitoring this site and all of its comments…

    …we all appreciate that you seem to be highly skilled at what you do and what you claim to be doing for what I imagine you believe to be ‘for the good of others,’ but don’t you think that what you have now done is completely irresponsible and dangerous?

    All you are doing is setting a bad example of how to make a point…countless wannabes out there will now be thinking that they should follow in you footsteps and blindly target yet more agencies.

    I CHALLENGE you, if you want to make a real difference, target the people you should be interested in outing….peadophiles, gang leaders, terrorist organisations, actual corruption.

    After you have done this, and only then, can you be proud of something you have achieved for the good of everybody else. Everything else you do, you’re no better than the people you claim to be against..join their ranks.

    Comments welcome, TNT.

  6. Anonymous says:

    What, that’s it? That’s the glorious day one leak?

    Cue people tuning out in 3, 2, 1…

  7. The Lulz Boat says:

    Hey guys! If you’re looking for a chance to wear your allegiance to #AntiSec, check out The Lulz Boat shop. It will be heavily updated over the next few days with new designs and more clothing variety. Viva #AntiSec!

    http://www.cafepress.com/thelulzboat

  8. Anonymous says:

    get em good ;) more power to ya Lulzsec.

  9. emmdeeaych says:

    It is my understanding that the lulz are @ your security, not @ their antics.

    I hope nobody gets hurt. It seems likely someone will. High stakes and all that.

  10. MrCompletely says:

    Everything about the current war on drugs is evil.

    Everyone who is helping fight that war is a war criminal.

    The cartels are the result of the war on drugs. Yes, they are evil too. But they are a product, not a cause.

    All of the methods in the war are oppressive and directly counter to a so-called “free society.”

    • MrJM says:

      Everything about the current war on drugs is evil.

      Everyone who is helping fight that war is a war criminal.

      And your broad generalizations are a crime against humanity.

      • Anonymous says:

        The War on Drugs is the most criminal generalization of them all.

        Policemen have historicaly proven themselves by and large to be psychopaths with guns, the sadistic guard dogs of the rich and powerful. To hell with them all.

        If you need their protection maybe you’re not as honest and responsible as you think.

      • genre slur says:

        Your understanding of humanity, I presume, is to be held by ALL others. Correct?

    • Anonymous says:

      Why do people think ending the “War on Drugs” will solve anything? When prohibition was ended, criminal organizations who benefitted greatly from prohibition– like Cosa Nostra–became even more powerful and wealthy. So wealthy in fact that by 1980 the Five Families of New York were raking in $25 billion a year.

      I am all for revisiting our approach to drug problem, but to act like ending the war is the solution is just plain ignorant.

      The drug cartels are organizations run by professional criminals. If it is not drugs, it is something else. The crime will still be there.

      Lulz is a organization of half wits who understand very little of the real world. Why these dolts rail against the state but say nothing of the individuals regularly abuse ore individuals the world over. 16,500 Americans were murdered last year. A further 14,000 were killed by drunk drivers. That is 30,000 Americans killed each year by other Ameircans. Not by corporations or government agencies, but by other Americans. Wake up! It is not large entities who are the problem, but humanity in general. The sooner you people realize human being are inherently cruel, base, creatures that taint everything and anything they touch, the sooner you will be able to understand the problems of our times.

      • Anonymous says:

        So you’re saying we need to keep prohibition in place so the cartels can continue to make money off of THAT instead of other things? Here I thought the WoD was being waged for safety or some bullshit. Thanks for enlightening me.

    • Anonymous says:

      Five start to MrCompletely for being one of the few to recognize that the real threat is not from people selling drugs which should never have been made illegal. Our corrupt government is the real problem.

    • genre slur says:

      Touche!

  11. Anonymous says:

    Release info about law enforcement people jeopardizes not only their life but the lives of their families. Please someone has to stop these people now.

    • Anonymous says:

      What you fail to understand is that corrupt LEOs are putting innocent people’s lives at risk, every single day. Without transparency, there is no security. While I don’t agree with Lulzsec’s approaches, I think they’re doing a service to us all.

  12. Anonymous says:

    hahah teapot. nice try, but that’s a Tibetan sky funeral:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

    we are as squirrels, trying to get a nut.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Dial-up connections cannot go .06 kbps. That is 61.44 kbps. Dial-up modems only go up to 56.6 kbps and the connections are not shared. It is either ISDN or, more likely, a very slow DSL connection.

  14. teapot says:

    There is a full, unredacted translation of an arabic instruction booklet on how to produce a homemade ch3mical weap0n with an effective range of 200m, a duration of 1 hour and a suggested list of targets:

    _________ could be used in any closed space that has a limited number of openings, and the Mujahid is sure that
    people other than the ones targeted will not enter. For instance:
    • Prostitution clubs [places]
    • Theaters
    • Shopping malls
    • Jewish temples
    • Alcoholic clubs and restaurants
    • Investment [commission, interest] places
    • Movie theaters
    • Indoor gymnasiums
    • Dancing clubs
    • Gambling places
    • Trains (not the train stations for they are under camera surveillance)
    • Churches in the Islamic countries (without distinction)
    • Schools

    ^This is not cool Lulzsec. Interesting but not cool.

    • politiker0 says:

      It doesn’t take a security counter terrorism background to figure out what places a islamic terrorist might target. Releasing this information changes nothing. Al Qiada or any other terrorist group assumes we know these basic strategies Keeping the public ignorant of these threats helps no one.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Rhode Island has the same basic law regarding immigration as Arizona has. Why doesn’t the press ever mention it?

  16. zebbart says:

    Maybe now corporations and governments will take data security as seriously as they did Y2K. One of the good things about Lulzsec is that they are doing this all for show, and giving us an hell of an education. The real bad guys that we should be worried about are the ones who will use the same techniques, not to embarrass and disrupt, but to exploit and attack. Lulzsec is not the virus, they are the vaccine, and the establishment should be thanking them for exposing their weakness before it is too late.

  17. Anonymous says:

    I hate to godwin, but the gestapo was just doing it’s job. The guards in Soviet gulags were just doing their jobs. Pilots were just doing their jobs when they dropped agent orange on villages.

    Doing your job isn’t an excuse for being an asshole.

  18. Cocomaan says:

    Arizona law enforcement is one of the most abusive law enforcement communities in the country.

    With 1% of the US population in jail, forgive me while I play the smallest violin ever for the fascists in the AZ police force.

  19. teapot says:

    hahaha – post updated with my findings, I see :)

  20. holtt says:

    My this is a comfy armchair!

  21. Anonymous says:

    Police informants are the same as “agent sabatures” as they often finance, arm and organize these target groups themselves. Not too sympathetic for them.

  22. Anonymous says:

    *I CHALLENGE you, if you want to make a real difference, target the people you should be interested in outing….peadophiles, gang leaders, terrorist organisations, actual corruption.*

    AKA the US GOVT. Once the foundation is firm, then you can work on external corruption.

    Anything built on a unstudy foundation will never prosper.

  23. Jake0748 says:

    I am too confused by all the arguments about security, freedom, privacy, idiocy, hacking, and legality – to even come to an opinion, much less post it.

    BUT… I absolutely sure that the LulzSec logo guy looks like Mr. Peanut. Am I wrong?

  24. PlaneShaper says:

    You know, outside of the shit they’ve just caused for the people that put themselves in harms way in order to protect our laws (the worst part of this), LulzSec is becoming akin to fundamentalist Christians, causing more damage to their own cause by justifying their hypocrisy with unearned righteousness.

    There are actual people that oppose the Arizona laws that need to legitimately convince a majority of the public in AZ to support their cause and either get the law struck down or cycle a new set of legislators in the State, because it’s kind of how Democracy works. Right now, I wish LulzSec supported right-wing causes, because with them on “my side,” do I even need enemies? But since they’ve targeted a heavy right-wing platform with their latest attack, you know this anarchist bullshit is going to get pinned on liberalism.

    We don’t live under tyrannical oppression anywhere in America, even Wisconsin (as hard as that is to say), and if you think we do, you should go vacation in a real place that does. We live in a Democratic Republic with a representative government voted on by the people willing to get off their lazy asses and vote.

    Want to expose corruption and hypocrisy? Great! Please do. Want to put people’s actual lives in danger who have no power or ability to actually change the “oppression” you feel like you’re being held under? Go to hell.

    You will never win an argument by pissing off everyone in the room. Get off the stage.

    • genre slur says:

      “…in a Democratic Republic…” Sirius? Bwahahahaha! The map you attempt to show me, in juxtaposition to the reality I seem to directly experience with my senses, is the funniest thing I’ve read this week. Awesome.

    • lightswitch says:

      Finally a voice of reason.

    • Anonymous says:

      But they are wiinnig the argument by pissing off everybody on stage, and by they, i mean, the system thats in power, I repeat “the System” not even the people that are in power, its gotten to the point where everyone says that they don’t agree with the policies but they are just doing theyre job.

      How do you fight a nameless faceless system?
      you try to hold peole accountable, but even if you remove them from the stage, the rules dont change.

      It may be true that you have the most freedom, but it is not true that you have ultimate, objective freedom, democracy does not equal freedom.

      This is something like the bandwidth caps that ISPs are introducing, soon we wont have a choice in the matter, but youl still have more than other countries, I’m sure. (Except for Japan, everybody always forgets about Japan). The continuous erosions of your freedoms, and the small impacts its had on you personally, have you believing that you are still free, but you cannot deny that your freedoms are under siege. The players are getting into position, and you are none the wiser.

  25. Anonymous says:

    I would like to personally invite all the members of the Lulzsec community to move to Southern Arizona. They would most enjoy the boader towns, where they can experience the Drug cartels and human smuggling rings firt hand. I would highly reccomend the isolated ranch experience, where you can be murdered just for mending your own fences to keep your own cattle in.

    If they choose not to experience boader life first hand maybe the can send donations to the boader hospitals for uncompomsated care that these hospitals provice for the victums of the thugs.

    We the public would also like their cell phone numbers, home addresses and names and ages of their family members. Oh right they are a do as I say not as I do group.

  26. eviladrian says:

    Something I wrote back in February, when Julian Assange was still the most dangerous man in the world:Julian Assangeâ„¢

    Wikileaks is kinda like Napster about 10 years ago, remember how Shawn Fanning was always being so cocky and wearing “shared” Metallica shirts and generally starting shit? But eventually Napster got shut down, and that was the end of file sharing, right?
    Oh wait, I mean Napster was the tiny tip of a massive iceberg called BitTorrent, imagine what the thing that comes after Wikileaks is going to be like! CIA spooks will look back on the days when Assange was their biggest problem with fondness and bittersweet regret, they’ll put flowers on his grave…

    Here comes the torrent…

  27. teapot says:

    What will AOL hand over to the cops?

    AOL_Legal_Process_Nov 2010.pdf

  28. Anonymous says:

    Viva Lulzsec!

  29. Major Variola (ret) says:

    Merlot? Burgundy?

    You didn’t actually build a civilization on this shit, did you?

    First woodpecker? PETN up your butt?

    Epic.

  30. Anonymous says:

    Make sure to tune in today at 1 pm est for “LOCKDOWN” where we will have self proclaimed worlds #1 Hacker Gregory Evans http://live.thetechbuzz.net

  31. Anonymous says:

    I for one welcome our new lulzy overlords.

  32. teapot says:

    This /b/tard got their attention:
    http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9730/tocybertipline.jpg

    ASFC-0127-10 THREAT TO UNKNOWN SCHOOL.pdf

  33. teapot says:

    Wikilulzâ„¢

  34. Anonymous says:

    I’m pretty sure that exposing the corrupt, evil, military-corporate-industrial, post 9/11 society that we’ve become is exactly what the lulz are about. To completely distrust the American government is becoming all too frowned upon, considering the reality of America turning more and more grim.

    Who’s there to tell you the truth? I’m pretty sure Wikileaks supporters were in it for the lulz. It’s a big fuck you to those you don’t trust. We’re lulzing at them, caught with their pants down moment. No, this release isn’t exactly a Julian Assange story. This is anonymous hackers from both Anonymous and Lulzsec. And who are they? They are every computer-literate person who feels the need to say fuck you. Sony had too much money. HBGary controls large private military deals, AZ is the wild wild west of immigration. Lulzsec brazil had it’s own agenda, when they took down their sites last week. It’s the people united to give the big guy the big finger.

  35. franko says:

    …so, in other words, they are acting more like terrorists: picking high visibility targets, the general public be damned, and doing in the name of some “more important” concept.

    • Anonymous says:

      …which then means…

      …so, in similar words, everyone is like terrorists: picking high visibility targets (good or bad is moot point), the general public be damned (as always), and doing in the name of some “more important” concept.

      …That’s deep

    • Anonymous says:

      I’d say that the War on Drugs is a much more ‘general public be damned’ activity than leaking information on a few undercovers. Don’t get me wrong, I hope they get out alright, but they are hardly the general public.

  36. JProffitt71 says:

    Now, I’m going to go ahead and leave room for the possibility that they did not actually end up disclosing any ongoing undercover operations and I read that wrong. In that case I don’t see a major problem with what they just did, at least nothing leaping out and slapping me like this.

    However, when this does happen, people cannot wave away the consequences because its for a good cause. Fighting the good fight against an evil does not excuse people from morality. Humanity has to be the ultimate goal, otherwise people will just be replacing one tyranny with another kind of tyranny. Be better, be classier, you are capable.

    • genre slur says:

      Hey man, that second paragraph is bess. I agree. I just can’t justify supporting socio-political infrastructure. I got sick of Robber Barons justifying their behaviour through language-games (IE Legal arguments — quite different than scientific or philosophical arguments, yet the former seems to want the value ascribed to the latter two. While lying at the same time) when I found out about the first world war. The second one sealed it. Lulz may indicate a group with poorly expressed values, yet they seem to be a ‘force’ which by some small measure is contributing to the ‘erosion/transformation’ of the morphology of socio-political infrastructures. That is something I value.

    • Anonymous says:

      “people cannot wave away the consequences because its for a good cause”

      The USA and their allies seem to find it easy to wave away the odd 150,000 civilians, all allegedly to pop a cap in the ass of a lone, middle aged man in his pyjamas, thousands of miles away.

      Neither group holds the moral high ground.

      • Anonymous says:

        uhhhhh, it’s no where near 150,000 civilian deaths in afghanistan, or iraq, or combined. Cite your source if you’re going to use an exact number since we all know you didn’t count the bodies.

        • Antinous / Moderator says:

          it’s no where near 150,000 civilian deaths in afghanistan, or iraq, or combined.

          You’re quite correct about it not being anywhere near 150K civilian deaths. It’s over 650K civilian deaths in Iraq alone. http://www.brussellstribunal.org/pdf/lancet111006.pdf

          • lightswitch says:

            It’s important to remember that a large portion of those civilians deaths were the result of terrorist attacks directly intended to kill as many civilians as possible.

          • Antinous / Moderator says:

            It’s important to remember that a large portion of those civilians deaths were the result of terrorist attacks directly intended to kill as many civilians as possible.

            If you read the report, you’ll see that most of the deaths were from gunfire.

          • Anonymous says:

            My source was http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ who put a name to each documented death. Of course the actual number is much higher but it’s not always possible name pieces of people.

            And, yes my 150,00 was a slight, rhetorical exaggeration… mea culpa… clearly a crime worse than the slaughter of innocents.

  37. teapot says:

    I suspect the ex-”second-ranking officer in CIA’s Clandestine servive” doesn’t like having his and his wife’s names made public…

    http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3894/ciaguy.jpg

  38. JProffitt71 says:

    *sigh* One more, I forgot to mention, yes, protest movements are far from sketchy survival of the fittest environments. The rest though, come on.

  39. Anonymous says:

    I am totally opposed to SB1070, but it’s not DPS who chose to make this law. The LEGISLATURE did. Why not bust into their systems and look at the communications between Russell Pearce and Jan Brewer. These “concerned citizens” went after the wrong people and not only put the lives of the officers in danger, but their spouses and children at risk. If one person is harmed because of this jerk’s actions, I hope he is held personally responsible for it.

  40. SpartMail says:

    Just the dox, please

    More details of the members are at http://pastebin.com/iVujX4TR

    Lulz members

    Richard Fontaine (Lincolnshire, UK) = Uncommon
    Daniel Ackerman Sandberg (Sweden) = Topiary
    Christopher Ellison (Essex, UK) = Avunit
    Xavier Montsegur (New York, NY) = Sabu
    Solomon Saleh (London, UK) = tFlow
    Sven Slootweg (Dordrecht, Netherlands) = Joepie91

    All in the interests of anarchic transparency, which is in keeping with the spirit of Lulzsec and Anonymous

  41. Anonymous says:

    America doesn’t realize how hypocritical they are as a country.
    “We believe in human rights and free speech and free actions”
    …. unless of course it’s something we disapprove of, then it’s wrong..
    OH. OKAY. Are you that blind to not see that?

  42. libraryatnight says:

    This is unfortunate for any officers who are reasonable and try to do good, but there’s a large number of police here (AZ) who think they’re cowboy badasses above the law. We’re living in a growing surveillance state. I can’t help but feel some cynical joy in watching them be the victims. My mother would tell me two wrongs don’t make a right. But it’s more complex than that. Interesting times to be alive.

    “When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”

  43. Wingo says:

    Whoa. This is some serious espionage. Anyone torrenting that file should be very, very careful.

  44. Anonymous says:

    I suspect this is a message re-positioning after they managed to get hacked by another hacking group themselves, making ‘We did it to protect your security’ kind of an empty one.

  45. teapot says:

    Files in the torrent I will be interested to inspect:

    files/iphone apps- used against officers.doc
    files/Tampa Police Department How A Suspect Defeated the Cruiser Lock to Escape.pdf
    files/2010-02-0011_Countersurveillance Tactics.pdf
    files/Mexican Hitmen – It Was Better to Just Shoot Them 0211.doc
    files/TRAPSTER.doc
    files/McDonalds Off Duty Shooting 0910.doc
    files/Cell Phone search affirmed 4th circuit.pdf
    files/Spike Deployment Gone Bad.wmv
    files/Covert Electronic Key Video camera 0809.pdf
    files/Radical Islamist Tattoos 0210.pdf
    files/Right-Wing Extremists Part 1.wmv
    files/oops.wmv
    files/Racial Profiling.docx
    files/looks like batman symbol.jpg
    files/purple drank.pdf

    Thanks lulzsec for providing me an entertaining Friday!

  46. Anonymous says:

    I think, in an era when the Corporations and The Banks do whatever they feel like to make money for their shareholders with no consequences, including rubber-stamping thousands upon thousands of mortgages they didn’t even own and turfing those people out onto the street, when people have to get the Sheriff’s department to foreclose on the banks themselves to get recompense, when the FDA just hand hundreds of assault weapons to Drug Gangs with GPS transmitters from… fucking RadioShack!? in them… in a time when buying a product or a game is now an indefinite leasing agreement…

    While the world is turning into a Capitalistic Anarchy, I can see why hacker groups think it’s acceptable to commit their own forms of Anarchy.

    • Mal says:

      This isn’t capitalism. This has nothing do to with capitalism. Capitalism means free trade, sound money, and enforced laws which include civil liberty laws like the U.S. Bill of Rights, none of which we have anywhere I’ve been able to get to. The vast majority of my home nation of America’s resources, manpower included, go toward keeping government and government enforced monopolies (corporations) from collapsing, while they get less efficient and more tyrannical. It’s “progressives” on the left and neo-conservatives on the right that keep this avalanche going. The government doesn’t have a place in daily life, it’s just that simple. Enough is enough, and LulzSec are just another group waking up to the fact that radical, dangerous action is required to deprive these tyrants of their power.

      Capitalism is the old solution to the old problem. It’s what American revolutionaries used in response to corporatist England and the East India Company. I think everyone just needs a history lesson.

      A message to everyone else: Please stop laughing when peaceful protesters get attacked or killed by police. They didn’t “have it coming”, they weren’t “asking for it”. It’s flat out fascism and it needs to stop.

  47. Anonymous says:

    Lulzsec offline?

    I hear CloudFlare got raided?

    http://lulzsecurity.com/

  48. maryofkentucky says:

    “LulzSec draws its name from the neologism ‘Lulz,’ (from LOLs) which often signifies laughter at the victim of a prank, and ‘Sec,’ short for ‘Security.’” (from the Wikipedia page)

    I thought it was “sec”, as in “dry” in French, referring to the wine in the chosen meme’s hand. That’s a big ol’ wrongos.

    I’ve not seen what’s included in the “leak”, but I hope they were selective with what they released. I’m sure not everyone in the force there is corrupt or supportive of the policies put in place, so I hope they had that in mind.

  49. Rob Beschizza says:

    “Are you seriously saying that the better line of action there would be to let the armed suspect walk away”

    Yep. This ‘stop the criminal at any cost’ mentality has little to do with public safety, and in this case it got a child killed.

    Refraining from starting a gunfight when surrounded by children is ‘arbitrarily ignoring any criminal?’ Please.

    • Anonymous says:

      Really Rob? How many terrorists would have to be hiding in a daycare center before you’d give the greenlight to bomb it? Like a thousand?

      But seriously, yes the message to criminals is “If you are around a bunch of children, you probably won’t get shot in the immediate future.” We need to be okay with sending that message.

      The (previously less-)desensitized public used to understand the concept of hostages, but apparently children are now acceptable collateral damage (even among readers of Boing Boing!) if it means that someone might otherwise make off with some cash and take his chances on the lam.

      This is actually taught to police officers at the Academy (believe it or not). You don’t follow an armed suspect into a wooded (or similarly obstructed) area for your own safety and you don’t follow them into a densely crowded area, such as a large restaurant or a shopping mall, for everyone elses safety. These are some of the principle rules of dealing with armed individuals. They also teach you not to get into car-chases because it’s too great a threat to public safety… but all you have to do is cover your face when a cruiser passes to get them to chase you.

  50. Rich says:

    My app is mentioned in these documents! – http://t.co/HmUTO0D

  51. gwailo_joe says:

    It’s all fun and lulz

    Until the FBI (or their foreign counterparts) come to your door and charge you with fourteen felony counts of whatever-they-want.

    When I open my newspaper and see the pop-tart cat on the second page: I know somebody is going to get it.

    Even if you believe you are fighting tyranny, especially if you ARE fighting tyranny; just know that a small army of moderately paid servants of the oligarchy are driving to their offices every day, spending upwards of forty hours a week with the sole purpose of finding you and putting you in prison.

    To this new breed of rebel protest hackers, I tip my proverbial hat to your cojones and chutzpah.

    But beware The Man. He is inexorable and unyielding.

  52. benher says:

    Lulz finds a new toy, cops get 0w3n3ddd AND I can play Call of Duty again!

    I even got to use my A.K! Today was a good day!

  53. Anonymous says:

    the war on drugs will never end cause the people who run/own america know if drugs stop americas economy will plummet.

  54. Anonymous says:

    It’d be nice if they did this to the BATF(E). The Gunwalker scandal (it’s like Watergate + lots and lots of murders!) surely has lots of paper trail that needs to see the light of day.

  55. Anonymous says:

    Amazing how everyone is quick to condemn these sorts of activities. You’ll look just as foolish one day as those who condemned Ellsberg back in the 70′s look now.

  56. meowdip says:

    As a side note to the discussions here, I want to comment on this line from the “spice” bulletin:

    Officers should exercise extreme caution when handling regular cigarettes; the “spice” solution would be water soluble and easily absorbed through bare skin on contact.

    Few water soluble chemicals easily penetrate skin, there are some but I doubt this to be the case here.

  57. Anonymous says:

    I live in Arizona and I’m all for it, I think this leak is necessary to help inform us about the true workings law enforcement system, especially since being an immigrant became a crime. Also, I’m VERY curious to see what types of “terrorist groups” law enforcement has been tracking, I think it likely that even pacifist peace groups have fallen under suspicion. Good for you LulzSec!!! A++++

  58. Ratio says:

    Lulzsec may be heroes to some readers here, but their actions are going to result in new laws that you will not like. And they know this.

    Tip your hat to these “rebel protest hackers” all you want. Rage against “The Man” and deify these reckless, amoral thugs to your heart’s content. We will all become their victims.

    • gwailo_joe says:

      Hey! Using my lines to make your own point is bad rhetoric!

      Though, unfortunately. . .you are indeed correct.

      and Major V. (ret)…what *are* you talking about?

      Sometimes I make the mistake of commenting when drunk and/or angry and look back later and say ‘damn. that made no sense.’

      yet I enjoy deciphering the rants of others…but red wines and woodpeckers? Man, you got me all confused.

      (for the record I would prefer a nice Cabernet. . .and Woody)

    • Anonymous says:

      Folks should consider that the more laws are created =’s more law enforcement officers required to enforced said laws.

      let them drown under the weight of their own duties.

      Anyway…LEO shall, regardless, generate laws ad absurdum.

      Folks like luzsec are just helping to immanentize the eschaton. I say bring about the change, sooner than later please and thank you.

      hail eris.

    • travtastic says:

      Wallow in that terror!

      • Ratio says:

        Revel in that ignorant delusion!

        You think I’m wrong? Wait until these brave, noble revolutionaries take down the wrong FAA system and bring air traffic to a standstill for a couple of days. Or maybe you’d prefer the FDIC? How about the cellular network? The government lockdown that emerges will be legendary, and not in a good way.

    • Anonymous says:

      Theyre victims? Meaning LULZsec?
      It sounds to me like youre saying its best to keep your head down, and not look for more trouble.

      Maybe he wont beat you anymore, he was just having a bad day. Its your fault really.

  59. Anonymous says:

    Police have been abusing power. We see a new story about it every day. It’s only getting worse. Politicians are more corrupt than ever. They call it lobbying, but it’s really bribery. Corporations own the government. Powerful, wealthy men are controlling our futures, sending our family and friends to die. They care nothing about us. It’s time we started caring about ourselves and take back our world. We fought against dictatorships and monarchies for a reason, and it’s time we fight against the tainted joke that we call Democracy.

  60. Silent Eagle says:

    Dear LulzSec,

    Is LulzSec taking requests? If so, I have one or two.

    Expose the operations of Mexican drug cartels directly responsible for 11,000+ deaths in 2010 (in Mexico alone). List banks/businesses that launder money for the cartels, post info about “employees” of the cartels, corrupt public officials/military personnel/law enforcement personnel/citizens who aid the cartels on both sides of the border, safe house locations, smuggling routes, etc.

    I also wouldn’t mind seeing Erik Prince exposed for the treasonous bastard that he truly is.

    Possibilities are endless.

    Thank you for your time and consideration.

    Sincerely,
    Silent Eagle

    • PathogenAntifreeze says:

      That’s too easy for Lulzsec to accomplish: List every US congressperson and senator who supports drug prohibition. Tada: you have the _DIRECT-LINE_ causative agents for every single bit of drug related violence, every single bit of property theft related to drug purchases, every single meth lab screwing up a neighborhood instead of being a controlled process at Glaxo-Smith-Kline or Pfizer, every single kid growing up without the presence of a parent who was killed or put in jail over simple buying/selling/using things more or less equivalent to alcohol, every person addicted to a drug that they thought wasn’t as bad as the propoganda says, because the propoganda is obviously written with political instead of scientific aims, and the 11,000+ deaths in 2010 you cite.

      Doesn’t take the slightest bit of hacking to get that *secret* info.

    • Anonymous says:

      There are assholes on all sides of the “war on drugs.” You have the cartel bosses and those who support them–either through a show of arms, being mules, laundering their money, etc. And you have the politicians (and please note: we’re entering tinfoil hat country here) who see no fiduciary benefit to legalizing things like marijuana. What happens if you were to legalize marijuana? Suddenly, there’d be less profit in selling this stuff on the black market. There’d also be fewer people going to jail, and that would make the prison system smaller. WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE PRISON GUARDS’ JOBS!?!?!?

      So, yeah, there’s no reason from a politician’s POV to legalize the stuff. Also, to suggest things other than mandatory minimums, etc, would make the politician seem “soft on crime” and more likely to lose their cushy job as a legislator. And, who wants to lose their job IN THIS ECONOMY?

    • Anonymous says:

      Oh, and one more thing. Totally anecdotal and second-hand, but here it goes:

      I knew a man who was upper-middle management type with the federal government (GS-13). Part of his job dealt with drug interdiction in the Northeast. This man, plus some other people, put an intelligence group together to get as much info and interdiction capability as possible. Even the Navy got involved, and offered some space for use in Brunswick. The Canadians were also involved. As he told it, Washington was A-OK with the whole thing. But, the day before this massive joint project got underway, the regional office (Boston) shut it down.

      Why?

      (Again: this is anecdotal. I talked to the guy, which is why I know about this story. There may be many pieces of the puzzle missing)

      OK, LulzSec, I have a mission for you, should you choose to accept it. Go after the DEA, US Customs, etc, and find the TRUTH about whether they really give a crap about stopping the flow of drugs. Or are they just putting on a show and doing it half-assed?

      This message will self destruct in a half a seco*BOOM*

    • Anonymous says:

      why do the three letter agencies job for them?

  61. bkad says:

    “LulzSec draws its name from the neologism ‘Lulz,’ (from LOLs) which often signifies laughter at the victim of a prank, and ‘Sec,’ short for ‘Security.’” (from the Wikipedia page)

    I thought it was “sec”, as in “dry” in French, referring to the wine in the chosen meme’s hand. That’s a big ol’ wrongos.

    When I first saw the name I thought of “Dalek Sec”…

  62. Anonymous says:

    I think the best thing to come out of this is the name “Mrs. Dranklesworth”

  63. Bevatron Repairman says:

    Christ, what a bunch of assholes.

    I’m all for embarrassing for law enforcement for certain bad behaviors, but document dumps like this are both irresponsible and lazy. There have to be thoughtful ex-law enforcement officers (the sort one finds commenting on progressive or libertarian sites who could help sift through this material to expose bad policing procedures while protecting current undercover operations.

    This shit gets people killed.*

    * Yes, as does the drug war. I’m opposed to that, too.

  64. janusnode says:

    I have not read the released documents, but one thing I find disturbing from the excerpts above is the implication that the police should, as a matter of course, be going through (be allowed to go through) our phones/computers to see what we have on them. Are they really allowed to look through what we have stored on our devices whenever they feel like it? That seems insane; before we had such devices, the police surely could not, when they stopped us for any reason, also ask to be taken to our homes to read through all our files and letters. Don’t they need some kind of probable cause to start looking at our personal documents?

  65. Palomino says:

    I think it was BB that had a post about Wikileaks and the issue of them obtaining planted “disinformation”. Don’t you think that some of the document classifications might be intentional? Confusion and contradicting information IS the new game plan.

    And, as stated above by anon, the police department and the sheriff’s department often don’t see eye-to-eye.

    Also stated above, it will be a truth in the future that the only step government’s can take in the future is to make it illegal to OWN or HAVE these documents, like child pornography, since it is blazingly apparent that hackers have the upper hand and are here to stay. Or, maybe it’s time to return to old school paper documents, no copy ink, vault-like file cabinets, and secured storage warehouses for billions of file boxes. If it’s stored on servers or online, then it’s not truly “classified” or “secret”.

    Just watch 1984, then you’ll get the idea of what our future holds: Double + Ungood.

  66. knoxblox says:

    Yup, don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this point.

  67. johnnyaction says:

    Looking over the file list

    http://lulzsecurity.com/releases/chinga_la_migra_1.txt

    It shows some poor sod’s resume included as part of the release.

    It also looks like there are a few video clips in the release package that might be interesting:
    Spike Deployment Gone Bad.wmv
    WW30mm.wmv
    oops.wmv
    Gavel-2011.wmv

  68. Anonymous says:

    false flag operation?

  69. datura says:

    I would not recommend downloading that torrent to your home computer! It would be very easy to compile a list of IP addresses of the peers on a torrent, just joining the pool, so please be aware.

    I am not a lawyer, but I would think that having these documents on your personal computer could be akin to ownership of stolen goods.

    • aldestrawk says:

      @datura: possession of protected information is not a crime if you are not the leaker or the hacker who originally copied it. If that were true, downloading NY Times articles containing classified Wikileaks articles would be a crime. Boing Boing has published excerpts on this very web page. If downloading stolen information was akin to receiving stolen goods, you would have already committed a crime by reading this page. Also, This is SSI, not classified documents.

  70. Anonymous says:

    My guess is the material came from an AZPD employee.

  71. Anonymous says:

    Lulzsec’s mouthpiece disappeared yesterday. The person talking on their twitter feed right now is a different one, and that person has never been in for the lulz.

  72. Anonymous says:

    Yo, 148 comments and nobody’s pointed out that the major Mexican cartels already had this information because they routinely pay hackers who are easily as skilled as lulzsec?

    The news here is that Arizona is not protecting the identities of their undercover operatives from criminal hackers, OK? Fuck arguing about whether the bad guys have a mustache or not, the point is Arizona has no data security and thus all their people are either in danger or already suborned.

    We already knew the cartels have repeatedly pwnzzored the Mexican government, so how can you people pretend they haven’t penetrated Arizona’s equally bogus info security? Get on the cluetrain.

    PS: anon #129 – somebody’s already on that job, supposedly, or at least I’m paying taxes that are supposed to going towards that.

  73. Anonymous says:

    LeSigh..Some undercover police who have been betrayed by their administrations inadequacies < Millions of lives lost, families destroyed, communities obliterated and countries invaded.

    90% of the worlds opium comes from Afghanistan, alot of cannabis comes from mexico into the states which funds the extremist organisations and criminal cartels that they then spend countless resources on fighting. They’re essentialy worthless plants but prohibition rises their value higher than that of gold. Logic people, the war on drugs is never ending and its destroying the world. The ignorant people who support it are the very same who excessively buy cheap products of poor quality made from our brothers and sisters in china who are slaves living like cattle in factories and must be exposed.

    Lulzsec has simply leveled the playing field and if they censored their release of information they would be nothing but hypocrites and the cycle would continue. Go lulzsec, you are the light in the dark and you will never be forgotten. Go with god, allah, buddha and the universe as they’re counting on you too and when all is said and done you will join them as masters of your time. Peace.

  74. Anonymous says:

    What is the difference between this and the theft of the emails that led to the so-called “Climate-gate”? What is the difference between this and the Freedom of Information requests made to acquire the emails of that Wisconsin labor professor?

    • semiotix says:

      What is the difference between this and the theft of the emails that led to the so-called “Climate-gate”?

      Not much.

      What is the difference between this and the Freedom of Information requests made to acquire the emails of that Wisconsin labor professor?

      Well, the request was made through a legal process, and when the university complied, they knew they were doing so. (Full disclosure: Bill Cronon was one of my professors in grad school, and isn’t a labor historian.)

      It was a dick move on the part of the guy who did it, but he was legally entitled to make it, because on the whole it’s generally a good idea for the public (even dicks) to be able to keep tabs on public employees. And it didn’t really work as a dick move, because the dickish parts of the request fell outside the bounds of the law.

  75. Anonymous says:

    Anyone commenting here about people being in danger is believing all the garbage that the main stream media is feeding you, good job!

  76. n3td3v says:

    Technically its not a leak if something is stolen by an outsider.

    A leak involves an insider… this wasn’t a “leak”.

    Andrew

    • Anonymous says:

      How do you know for sure how they got it?

    • PlaneShaper says:

      Technically, unless they took hardcopies, it isn’t stolen, either way. If it was provided to them by an insider, it’s unauthorized disclosure, and if they obtained it on their own it’s unauthorized access and duplication.

      To the Anon comment about main stream media, give the Palin-esque preaching a rest. I am fairly confident that the audience of Boing Boing is not representative of the run-of-the-mill “sheeple” and retains both the mental wherewithal and sapience to draw their own conclusions about a given topic (including you, whose conclusions would likely be welcomed here as much as any others’).

      I’m willing to concede I probably have more bias about this particular topic than most here, coming from a background where information disclosure can literally get people killed (and yes, cause revolutions in despotic countries; unfortunately, it’s very hard to predict which of the two results are going to happen, if not both or neither, without disclosure first, and it isn’t up to Privates to make the decisions to take such risks, but I’m rambling).

      Anyways, the bottom line here is that the people who are most likely the ones to stand a greater risk of danger from this disclosure are not the people with any responsibility for the law in question, nor have any power to change it beyond being individual participating citizens in a Democratic environment. And I *assure* you that putting them in greater risk of danger is unlikely to convince them to swing their own vote in favor of your causes. And the people who *are* in power are simply going to laugh and say, “We don’t negotiate with terrorists,” when they really mean, “We don’t negotiate with anyone who puts at risk someone who isn’t somehow emotionally connected to us,” but they’ll still get greater public support for being “strong” in the face of attacks.

      In a representative democracy, pulling this kind of crap does not garner effective support beyond fringe elements. Instead it vilifies the cause by association in the eye of the greater public, and I really wish they weren’t on the same side of the issues as me if this is how they protest.

      • Douglass says:

        Isn’t the United States kind of a bad and worsening example of a representative democracy as far as a lot of these kinds of issues are concerned, though? What would protests and actions through normal channels have accomplished?

        A jury trial for police officers: they’ll just find the whitest jury they can and the police officers will get off.

        Writing letters: completely ignored.

        Mass protests: completely ignored-and if they aren’t ignored, it’ll just turn into mass arrests.

        Changing politicians: neither party (and having only two major parties is a large part of the problem) wants to be accused of being ‘soft on crime’-or for that matter, really has the slightest bit of interest in getting their feet off of our necks.

        • PlaneShaper says:

          I don’t know about you, but I believe my vote has the same weight as everyone else’s votes. I also think you seriously discount the weight that letter writing provides to elected officials.

          But I do agree that we have weaknesses and the near certainty of biparty representation for the foreseeable future is a pretty big one. But I would say America is actually quite a bit better than it used to be in terms of being a representative democracy, even if it’s had a very recent, but noticeable, downturn.

          A democracy functions by actually convincing people to be on your side, this kind of vindictive assault is not helpful, and will only serve to perpetuate a continued downward slope of social and civil rights being quashed, not pull us up out of it.

          Much as I’m sure people here will want to scoff at the thought, almost universally people have a breaking point where they are willing to give up some Liberty for some Security, though that point and the amount exchanged varies. However, when that has *already* happened, the way to get back your Liberties isn’t by continuing to make people feel insecure.

          I feel like LulzSec is operating akin to someone approaching someone else walking on the sidewalk and punching them straight in the face, then yelling at them for “not protecting themselves from the possibility that there might be a sociopath randomly punching people in the face.” Their targets are wrong, and their methods are wrong to actually have any possibility of affecting the change they say they want to affect.

          As the Anon said very eloquently, these folks are sooo good at what they do that they have sooo much potential for doing things a better way, a way that the classy guy in their picture would support. The fact that they aren’t would be funny, if it weren’t so sad.

          While I may agree with their motivations, I can’t agree with their actions. It would be much better for these guys/girls to fight for social/civil rights and online protections in a way that wasn’t actually damaging to the fight for civil rights and online protections.

          • Anonymous says:

            The issue with things like letter writing and following through on the more effective, proven means of ennacting political change and engaging with people are multiple:

            1. It requires you to act like a grown up for five whole minutes and I don’t think we can manage that any more.

            2. It just doesn’t stroke the old ego like playing internet desperado does.

            3. It would require not acting like an Internet and communicating in something other than memes and pictures of cats.Indeed, it may require effectively communicating a message to a broad demographic, some of who do not treat the internet as the be all and end all of cultural experience.

            4. There may be a greater number of people who hold an opposing viewpoint. Naturally these ‘Sheeple’ as I have so cleverly coined them should not have a right to an opinion, so that may preclude that particular avenue as well when combined with the sitation above.

            5. The change does not happen straight away this very minute.It may be gradual or suffer some set backs. As ennacting meaningful change through traditional means can be acutal hard work, this this can be upsetting to some people.

            So, face punching it and shrieking it is.

          • Mantissa128 says:

            Well, it certainly worked for Rosa Parks. If it hadn’t been for her indignant letter to her congressman, I expect the government wouldn’t have worked so diligently to eliminate institutional racism and segregation.

            And of course, women getting the vote. Good thing they were able to vote to effect change.

            The French Revolution is another good example – calm, reasoned letter-writing was key in getting the aristocracy to introduce reforms to free the people.

            And, what with the measured, intelligent letter-writing campaigns to King John, why we wouldn’t have made him change his mind and enshrine some basic freedoms in the Magna Carta.

            You’ve completely changed my mind, with your calm, reasoned post. Proof again that it works!

          • Anonymous says:

            You haven’t read the history books have you? The French revolution is full of blood, rage and violence, where you could have gotten beheaded just by saying “I don’t think the King is a bad guy…”.

          • Mantissa128 says:

            You haven’t read the history books have you? The French revolution is full of blood, rage and violence, where you could have gotten beheaded just by saying “I don’t think the King is a bad guy…”

            “The French Revolution (French: Révolution française; 1789–1799) was a period of radical social and political upheaval in French and European history. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from left-wing political groups and the masses on the streets. Old ideas about hierarchy and tradition succumbed to new Enlightenment principles of citizenship and inalienable rights.” – Wikipedia

            Yep. Those lawless, violent mobs. They should have written letters to the King, instead.

          • Anonymous says:

            We’ll ignore the Rosa Parks thing a moment because it kind of proves my point in so far as it wasn’t that effective compared to the actual real ground work and organising of the civil rights movement.

            Instead we’ll raise this question: Are you an actual grown man or woman who is likening a relatively free, democratic society that has mechanisms for citizen feedback that have been proven, time and time again, to respond to public pressure, to the Regime?

            Let’s not pretend the boot is on your throat, here.

          • Antinous / Moderator says:

            Let’s not pretend the boot is on your throat, here.

            Once the boot is on your throat, you can’t get up to take it off.

          • Anonymous says:

            It gets a lot harder to tell it’s there if you start claiming everything is a boot, though.

            The fact that things like, hey this is timely, like the legalisation of gay marriage in New York or the entire goddamn civil rights movement, came about because of years of actual real, hard work as opposed to a bunch of mastubatory theatrics, produces real change.

            If you aren’t willing to go do the real work of persuasion and compromise and effectively communicating your point to society at large in favour of creating you’re own narrative where you’re the rebel hero fighting back against the man? That’s not a problem with the system. That’s a problem with you and you should go fix it or fuck off.

          • Antinous / Moderator says:

            The fact that things like, hey this is timely, like the legalisation of gay marriage in New York or the entire goddamn civil rights movement, came about because of years of actual real, hard work as opposed to a bunch of mastubatory theatrics, produces real change.

            No, it came about because a bunch of pissed-off drag queens and street hustlers threw bricks at the cops and set a bar on fire 42 years ago. There would be no discourse on the issue now if somebody hadn’t picked up a rock at Stonewall then.

          • Douglass says:

            “I don’t know about you, but I believe my vote has the same weight as everyone else’s votes.”

            Somehow, I don’t get the feeling that ‘near totally meaningless’ is what you meant-even though I consider that far closer to the truth. I live in a ‘safe state’ for the Democrats (California, and Arnold Schwarzenegger’s election notwithstanding) in a distict just about as heavily gerrymandered as any other in this country, despite my own serious problems with gerrymandering as a concept. As a party, the Democrats have basically learned to take voters like me for granted because they assume that we’ll be so eternally terrified of the Republicans that we won’t notice that theocratic aspirations aside, they often intend to do the exact same things as them-although with more subtlety and less bluster.

            If anything, my situation is actually better than a lot of other people in this country-who have been trying to change the minds of politicians even more intractable to the opinions of their constituents, or who can’t vote at all because of state disenfranchisement schemes or other methods of lowering voter turnout.

            This also doesn’t take into account the degree to which most of the things that are truly wrong with this country are never really voted upon. They’re agreed upon, in private, and then only presented to Congress to ratify a decision already made, or the government just goes ahead and does it without even bothering to consider the people at all.

            Somehow, I don’t think that the peace groups in Fresno who were being spied upon voted for such.

            ” I also think you seriously discount the weight that letter writing provides to elected officials.”

            Yes, I do. The reason why is because while I think letter writing can succeed in situations that aren’t central to the agendas of those in power (ie, in favor of dismantling the public sector and privatization, more warfare, diminishing privacy rights), I’ve never seen letter writing affect them. If it made any difference, then the Democrats would’ve supported single payer and denied funding to the continued occupations, much less the two or three new wars that Obama has gotten the United States into since he was elected. These are high profile issues, but they do help to demonstrate my point: which is the degree to which public opinion and opprobrium are basically regarded as irrelevant by the government-much less corporations-here.

            “But I do agree that we have weaknesses and the near certainty of biparty representation for the foreseeable future is a pretty big one. But I would say America is actually quite a bit better than it used to be in terms of being a representative democracy, even if it’s had a very recent, but noticeable, downturn.”

            I would say that this speaks more of how horrid an oft-falsely idealized past was, as compared to how much progress was made.

            “A democracy functions by actually convincing people to be on your side, this kind of vindictive assault is not helpful, and will only serve to perpetuate a continued downward slope of social and civil rights being quashed, not pull us up out of it.

            Much as I’m sure people here will want to scoff at the thought, almost universally people have a breaking point where they are willing to give up some Liberty for some Security, though that point and the amount exchanged varies. However, when that has *already* happened, the way to get back your Liberties isn’t by continuing to make people feel insecure.”

            A democracy also functions when people who are either elected by the people or empowered by the state don’t betray that trust by ignoring them for personal enrichment or ideological motives, or seek nothing but increasing their own power at the people’s expense.

            Otherwise, one point you may wish to consider is that the same things don’t necessarily make people feel insecure in a universal manner. I certainly don’t feel secure knowing that I could get shot and killed by some random policeman for being too brown while using BART-and that he’d probably get off with a slap on the wrist for it. If lulzsec, say, leaked his private emails and it turned out he was the kind of bigot who was emailing racist jokes to his coworkers, or they found out that the Arizona police were spying on protesters against their racist government’s policies, I have a hard time seeing that as wrong. Not when it seems like not much of anyone else even gives a damn.

            It may take a while, but when the people that are supposed to be responsible for ‘security’ and stability turn out to be threats themselves, eventually people are going to start turning to the devil they don’t know instead of the devil they do know.

  77. bbbarry says:

    Hail Eris!

    Says it all. The world of information on the net & the ways that is used & abused are yet young.

    Folk like Lulz are inevitable – stirring up this pot, acting from outside the box for both good & ill whatever your perspective. They are demonstrating to us not the real nature of Government, Police & Corporation behaviour (which we all knew anyway) but the real nature of the wired world.

    Privacy, secrecy & copyright are concepts with a long ethical & practical history that are undermined by our new media. We need to evolve as an online society & we need to adapt both socially & culturally to this new environment.

    IMHO it’s not about the right & wrongs of Lulz or Wikileaks activities, but the response that the world makes. A security arms race is unlikely to be successful. Fascistic control of online media may be some folks’ wet dream but it is impossible.

    So what next?

    • Anonymous says:

      Basically the web either dies from its own pollution like a chat room full of trolls or the government starts requiring licenses to connect to it.

  78. Anonymous says:

    Dear LulzSec:

    Please hit the Rochester PD, Rochester Police Locust Club, and personal website of Officer Mario Masic next.

  79. Anonymous says:

    The only question I have to all the agencies getting hacked is “Why is this information on a system connected to the public internet?”

    If you have secure information then you have it on a secure system which isn’t directly accessible by the internet. Its not rocket science – that’s NASA’s job :-)

  80. starbucksdude says:

    Warrants being prepared for cloud flare CDN?

    http://www.dnsdumpster.com/report.php?domain=lulzsecurity.com

    Maybe they should be prepared offline for now….

  81. iamcantaloupe says:

    Did they really say “Hackers of the world [unite]?”

    Where’s Razor and Blade when you need ‘em.

  82. Anonymous says:

    Do something productive with the hacking and find BIG stuff like UFO documents, inside jobs, or something of that nature. At that point, all bets are off and I don’t understand who couldn’t support LulzSec.

  83. Anonymous says:

    “Carlos Santana is a blind hypocrit for his recent rant while ignoring his own countries past.”

    His own country’s past? He’s an American citizen and has been for over 40 years. I think this IS “his own country”.

    “Well, stop right there. Yes, Carlos Santana is ethnically Mexican and he was born in Mexico, but he was naturalized a U.S. citizen in 1965. He played at Woodstock, for Pete’s sake, and he was an American when he did it.”

    http://forums.corvetteforum.com/politics-religion-and-controversy/2636712-i-had-to-fix-the-wikipedia-carlos-santana-page.html

  84. semiotix says:

    Hackers of the world are uniting and taking direct action against our common oppressors – the government, corporations, police, and militaries of the world.

    Oh, well, is that all.

  85. Anonymous says:

    SB1070 was, indeed, signed into law but the US Justice Department managed to get an injunction on the more controversial parts. So this is all over a law that isn’t really a law yet because it’s tied up in the courts.

  86. Greg323 says:

    One overriding problem with an infodump like this is releasing personal information. That’s also an issue I have with Wikileaks. Release everything else, but don’t include names, addresses and family members of the officers. In the process of running a non-profit, I was fortunate enough to work with some decent, ethical, rule-following police officers. Not only is it in poor taste, it gives the Feds the excuse to call it “terrorism”, and enact even further draconian legislation.

  87. oasisob1 says:

    Well, so much for the ‘lulz’ and picking targets at random…

  88. Anonymous says:

    i am kinda dissapointed, i was expecting really big news, we have alot more controvertial news on the newspaper here in mexico about Boarder Patrol and the War agains Drugs (operation “rapido y furioso” for example, where the US goverment smuggled weapons to Mexico for the drug cartels without the mexican goverment knowing, claiming it was an undercover operation to catch those groups…bullshit, houndred of people have died by those guns, for years we have captured groups with those weapons). Also they are puting leaks that could endanger the life of people that are trying to catch criminals.

  89. Anonymous says:

    Looking through these, what I’m mostly getting is that AZDP is sad, depressing place to work where you are perpetually surrounded by well funded lunatics.

    I am not sure this is what I am meant to be getting from this.

  90. Anonymous says:

    The rainbow shitterz name checked you on twitter someone may actually read Cory’s new novel now.

  91. Anonymous says:

    Lulzsec are heroes. But some time they do stupid shit.

    OH NO WAIT! That’s a bunch of tech media bullshit!

    Ryan Cleary is not of Lulzsec you mother**** liers and and yes Lulzsec take legetimate requests.

  92. Ito Kagehisa says:

    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. ~Louis D. Brandeis

  93. Anonymous says:

    Hello,

    Please cease this discussion about a terrorist group, or we will be forced to nuke your officers. Yes, I’m the real president of the United States of America. If you doubt me, check my signature. I can verify this by posting on Pastebin.

    Regards,
    Barack Obama,
    President of the United States of America.

  94. Anonymous says:

    I was already a passenger on the lovely Lulzboat, but if I wasn’t, I would have swam as fast I could to catch up after the Dune (first!) reference.

    Let us all warn of icebergs and participate in the inevitable revolution (and hopefully mental evolution) any way we can.

    Next stop, the true rulers of the world: the bankers. I sure hope they bring down the credit card companies. Wipe out everyone’s debt and mortages. That would be very lulzworthy.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25080

  95. teapot says:

    I wonder if Disney/Pixar approve of this unauthorised use of their IP?
    NYSIC Concealment Handbook.pdf ~ P3

    PS: files/Spike Deployment Gone Bad.wmv is not cool.

  96. Anonymous says:

    I hope I’m not targetted in some way by them, but I’m saying this because I care.

    This kind of unquestioned supremacy of the “just for the giggles” attitude could, more often than not, lead to absolutely needless problems.
    It’s the same kind of weird humour that a kid shows when he lights a house on fire and just shrugs and giggles at the sight, with no care as to whether the house had innocent people inside it or not. “I knew it belonged to a policeman, so there…”
    It’s the humour (the lol’s) that makes this hypothetical kid giggle with his friends when they’re told there were indeed people inside that can then make these actions troubling and what makes people feel understandably and rightfully uneasy. There’s an automatic careless humour attached to these actions.
    When you find careless amorality funny, you’re going down a path that any thinking person should consider problematic and most probably will not support. And to what advantage is this to them?

    And I wouldn’t be surprised to see that, if one were able to track down the origin of this kind of humour to forums and imageboards, they’d be coming from the more sociopathic contributors. With the anonymity of the net, you can’t tell the difference between a person you’d be friend’s with in high school and laugh the juvenile laughs of youth with, and the strange man you’d instinctively walk away from because he’s talking to himself in the street corner. I’m sure the humour would overlap in some places, and I’m sure the strange man has many things one could identify with (he’s still a human being after all), but I wonder how many have crossed the line of sensibility in their innocent interaction with people they don’t know.

    And I agree with JProffitt71.
    I can even understand their “battling against” modern society’s thousand perceivable oppressions (oh so many people understand you!), but this group sometimes shows a kind of classlessness in addressing those oppressions that completely contradicts the character that’s become the symbol of Lulzsec. Don’t just post that picture up and look at it for reassurance. Be it! Where is that class; that sophistication in the actions taken, which the “common people” can applaud? And where is, I must ask, the willingness to put yourself in other people’s shoes?
    When I see someone “crushing bastards”, ala-Wikileaks (which can be commendable), I like seeing that they didn’t grab a chair, threw it at the “bastards” and started to laugh and flew away never to be caught. I actually appreciate it when there is strategizing behind the behaviour, that goes beyond the hacking and the superficial and wide identification of “bastards”. And the best kind of strategizing is the one that has a morality that most people can identify with.
    What I’m talking about is comparable to what some people feel when they see bank robbers and heists being successful without any innocent party getting physically hurt, and even without any party ever noticing before it’s too late. Some people can’t help tipping their hats off for that kind of achievement. That’s what an “Epic Win” is.
    “Oh we’re defacing the CIA and laughing while we’re at it because we won’t be caught for a while”. That is not an “Epic Win”. Not by a long shot.

    When they start tracking down corrupt corporations and cartels and racist groups, dismantling undoubtedly immoral places on the internet and so on, then I have no problem in tipping my hat to them and ‘clinking’ the wine glass with them, so to speak. But the shrugging humour…
    The non-sociopathic majority of the population will cheer this kind of attitude only to an extent. And this is coming from someone who can take it further than most.

    My only hope with these people is that, as they grow up (because I’m sure they’re in the ‘young’ department) they mature their behaviour as well, and their actions and decisions become more sophisticated too. I don’t say this to insult, I say this as advice from someone who’s from the same generation and who probably shares many of the same ideals.
    I can’t help imagining some of these individuals growing old and still making the same jokes in front of their computers, constantly reiterating funny internet memes, like some form of tourettes or OCD. What a waste of life and more importantly, potential.

    This distancing from the world is to their detriment as an entity on the world stage, and to the detriment of the world. If you want to be applauded and matter, people need to understand you outside of the 4chan imageboards and geeky blogs and the Internet. If you want to do things that matter and want people to recognize the good you’ve done for them, and how well you’ve done it, you can’t display a sociopathic disinterest in good sense to the world. Nobody will trust you and you’ll never achieve anything higher than the spotlight of the police helicopter.

    People involved in efforts like this have a tremendous platform here. I’d hate to see them screw it up (to put it mildly) because of some dogmatic attachment to Internet culture and heavy handed humour that is nothing compared with wit and sophistication of action.

  97. Anonymous says:

    Paging Public Enemy to the thread …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMAfKo65nng

  98. Anonymous says:

    When they hack into drug cartel systems and release internal procedures, emails and passwords along with this kind of thing, then I’ll believe the “it’s about the war on drugs” thing.

  99. querent says:

    Go team!

  100. Anonymous says:

    It is nice to see people who aren’t actually looking at the information making assumptions about the contents therein.

    While you might think they handed out complete dossiers on every undercover agent, until you check why scream and rail about something that might not actually be true?

    We have an amazing ability as humans to insert worse case scenarios and run with them, and later when proven wrong we cling to our original belief despite overwhelming evidence. You might mock them but your behaving like “birthers”.

    Did this infodump out undercover agents, I have no idea. I have not seen the data. But I am willing to stand up and question people making claims that it did when they offer nothing to support that position.

    And considering all of the fun we had looking at the law enforcement press release stating anyone who know who pedobear was was OBVIOUSLY a pedophile, sometimes it might be worth while for someone outside their sphere to look at the data and “facts” they are using and inject some common sense.

    Or have we not figured out that most of what the “powers that be” often try to hide is not something that will lead to the downfall of the western world but shows us that they are so far removed from reality that we should be paying more attention to how they operate.

  101. daneyul says:

    From the release: “…Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted.”

    From Rob(?): “…concludes the sergeant who so artfully avoided saying who fired first in a shootout in the presence of children…”

    The “suspect raised his weapon at me” renders the “who fired first” question moot. You may or may not question the wisdom of the cop calling out an automatic-toting suspect in a crowd of people. Fine. I do too.

    But…are you implying that the sergeant should have waited for a suspect with a raised weapon pointed toward him to fire off a shot?

    • Ugly Canuck says:

      The sergeant was not in uniform, was he?
      The moral of this tragic story is as the sergeant draws it: careful with that guin, Eugene, if you are not on duty, and are out of uniform, in a place crowded with people, who do not know what is actually going on.

      Don’t escalate a situatioon’s violence, until you know you’re not likely to make things worse by your attempts to make things better.

      So the lesson drawn is sound, in pretty much any circumstance where the Officer is off-duty, and out-of-uniform: before you draw your weapon … Think!

    • Anonymous says:

      The point is he should not have escalated the confrontation by announcing himself and pointing a gun at the suspect. Stopping a small time robbery is not worth the risks of a shootout in a public space, especially when there are minors around.

    • Rob Beschizza says:

      “But…are you implying that the sergeant should have waited for a suspect with a raised weapon pointed toward him to fire off a shot? ”

      No, and you’re right that at that point he had little choice. I’m wondering why he felt the need to be coy about who fired the first shot. Why do you think he felt the need to gloss over that in such a detailed report?

      Perhaps it has something do with having drawn his weapon, “announced” himself to an armed robber, and taken a kneeling combat stance while surrounded by kids in a McDonalds.

      • daneyul says:

        I’m sure there’s a lot more to the actual, official police report than what got released here (there’s likely a step by step, shot by shot account somewhere) but I’m not sure I’d call the sergeant’s statement coy.

        When I read: “…the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted.” I interpreted as the bad guy raised his weapon and the sergeant shot. He didn’t say the suspect fired, he said the suspect raised his weapon. I dunno, didn’t get the sense that he was trying to conceal anything.

        I do agree in hindsight the officer may not have been wise to announce himself from the midst of a crowd, but hindsight is 20-20–it was a dangerous, unexpected, quick-moving situation that turned horribly tragic.

        But I agree with the above post–there’s likely not a night that goes by that the officer doesn’t question himself on what happened, and it’s very difficult to vilify anyone’s actions or motives here but the hostage takers’.

      • ncinerate says:

        And had he – not – drawn his weapon, “announced” himself to an armed robber, and taken a kneeling combat stance while surrounded by kids in a McDonalds, what then?

        Pretty clearly this was a -bad- person, someone willing to be involved in a shootout, someone with the capacity to pull a trigger and kill. What if the armed individual decided to shoot the whole place up? What if he went on from his “mcdonalds” robbery career to even more violent and dark crimes.

        Would you be sitting there standing all high-and-mighty saying this guy, a member of law enforcement sworn to protect people in just such situations, -should- have shot the suspect? Are you seriously saying that the better line of action there would be to let the armed suspect walk away? Should police just arbitrarily ignore any criminal who owns a firearm because they might shoot and accidentally kill an innocent person if there is a firefight?

        Clearly that particular officer went through a pretty damned rough time there. What happened is horrifying and I’ll bet there isn’t a night that goes by where the cop in question doesn’t feel remorse and question himself for what happened. That cop is a hero. He protected and served.

        • Anonymous says:

          I remember a quote about this very situation. Something like, “Better that 100 innocent children get shot in the head than that a single thief go free.”

  102. Anonymous says:

    Wait… I thought that they were just in it for the lulz

  103. Anonymous says:

    Exposing flaws and poor behaviors, etc is one thing. Putting people’s lives at risk is another. If someone’s life ends because of this release of information, then it’s on Lulz’s shoulders. And saying those people shouldn’t be in that situation in the first place is nothing but dodging blame. I don’t think releasing names in sensitive situations is a good idea at all.

  104. Race Bannon says:

    What Lulz needs to do is get into the mexican government computers to get info on how they treat all those who try to enter their southern borders, mexico treats their illegals much worse than the states ever has, and a PS, Carlos Santana is a blind hypocrit for his recent rant while ignoring his own countries past.

  105. teapot says:

    Holy. Shit.

    http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/7964/vulturesskull.jpg

    NARCOTRAFICANTES COLOMBIANOS – Graphic Warning.pdf
    ^This appears to be documentation of body disposal via vulture. Do not check this out before or during lunch.

  106. Nimdae says:

    I have to ask, because no one seems to be saying either way, and it is rumored, but to someone who is sifting through this…is there any operational information? As in information about ongoing operations that could result in bad things happening to potentially innocent people.

    I’m all about revolution and I know it will eventually lead to violence at some point, but I prefer to allow the people involved to choose their sides on their own free will based on information disclosure, rather than choosing their sides for them.

    Most cops are doing the job because it’s their livelihood and that’s all their interested: doing their job. The bad cops get a lot of press, not because that’s all there is, but because that’s what makes the ratings and gets the hits.

    • Anonymous says:

      These folks chose their side when they became cops, the “just doing my job” line has been tired for many years and isnt looking any better now.

    • teapot says:

      From the docs I have checked out there has been nothing particularly sensitive in this dump. Mostly inter-organisation bulletins and information sharing. Most of the info is on potential criminals/perpetrators and I have seen no documents pertaining to informants.

      This printable pdf with editable fields entitled “ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY – CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS DIVISION – CRIME INFORMATION CARD” might prove to be something they should’ve kept in a more secure location:

      http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6518/crimeinfocard.jpg

  107. Anonymous says:

    I Have Read The Files And Lulzsec Are Fair As They Must Be Holding A Lot More Information Than They Have Given Out. They Must Be Doing This Too Keep People Safe. Lulzsec Are Awesome Now They Need To Attack New Zealand About The Anti Torrenting Law!

  108. Anonymous says:

    Jeez dudes. You bring people in danger with this action. I’m not amused. They only do their job.

  109. Tuff Luke says:

    Holy Hell.

  110. Teller says:

    So much for ‘the Lulz.’

    • BenMS says:

      Does this reflect the almost certainly fractured nature of the Lulzsec community? As a group, they cracked open the Arizona files, and someone decided to use them to expose opression, instead of just releasing them for shits’n’giggles?

      • Teller says:

        I don’t know the answer to your questions. I just mean at first they seemed to be breaking into houses, putting a turd on the bed and hee-hawing. Now they appear to be targeting particular houses based on ideology, stealing the bed, DNAing whose been on it and releasing the names and phone numbers. Not so hee-haw anymore.

  111. Anonymous says:

    Lulzsec is doing a public service by exposing these law enforcement a**holes….the tampa police department is notorious for corruption…i was nearly arrested for taking photographs…we must take down the american beast…

  112. Mantissa128 says:

    Wikileaks. Arab Spring. Lulzsec. Technology is finally putting power back in the hands of ordinary people. Thank God – we are all Makers now.

    Chaos: good news.

  113. Anonymous says:

    AZDPS isn’t the agency that’s pushing the anti-immigration bill. The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Department (home to the infamous Sheriff Joe) is the main proponent.

    • Anonymous says:

      Wrong. Joe is a county sheriff; DPS is the state law enforcement. But nobody is “pushing” anything because it’s not a bill anymore; it’s a statute, it’s law.

      • Anonymous says:

        wrong. As a hispanic in Arizona Joe is as much part of the problem as the legislatur. A good chunk of the state police do not back SB 1070, which is a law with no teeth as the bad parts are being held up in court. Concerning Arizona law enforcement and who SHOULD have tasted the wrath of lulzsec…MCSO should have been first on that list.

    • SedanChair says:

      Oh no, police are freaking out because their cover is blown? I plumb forgot to give a damn.

  114. Anonymous says:

    the Lulz are cylons! No more networked systems!

  115. JProffitt71 says:

    Holy, wait, what? What!?

    I understand their motives for targeting Arizona law enforcement, but, really!? Leaking documents that “describe the use of informants to infiltrate various gangs, cartels, motorcycle clubs, Nazi groups, and protest movements”? That is just.. Some people just doing their jobs are in no kidding deep, non-lulzy danger right now.

    Holy shit, not cool lulzsec.

    • travtastic says:

      Everyone is just doing their jobs, while they’re doing their jobs.

    • Anonymous says:

      totally cool. They are making a weak attempt to re-balance this world, and they have a long way to go. Go underdogs.

    • Anonymous says:

      Law enforcement infiltrating gangs etc is an immoral practice and should be exposed. Officers are allowed to break the law to catch criminals. The run guns, drugs, do drugs, can kill people etc. They are given a free pass. They often bait people who would otherwise stay out of criminal activity into committing crimes.

      The bottom line is, the cops should not be allowed to break the laws they are enforcing. It is extremely immoral and by allowing it to become commonplace through willful ignorance is just as immoral if not more so.

      “All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

      Lulzsec is exposing the government for the dirty bastards they are and it’s time we all opened our eyes to government tyranny.

    • PathogenAntifreeze says:

      Weird, huh? People in a “free country” objecting to the practice of the government using our tax dollars on the practice of “secret police” like all our classic “evil enemy” states used to do. I guess the real problem and threat is US citizens with memories worth a shit.

    • Anonymous says:

      Information sure is powerful.. repercussions could last for a decade. I guess that everyone is now in protective custody and all “missions” are off.

      What I’m reading in their messages is that the methods they have acquired have yielded so much data, that they need to be selective in their releases.. which is a lot of work.

      I wonder if they have retrieved classified information about the efforts against LulzSec, and if those operations have been compromised as well.

      I’d bet someone in IT is somehow connected and to blame. Sort of like how firefighters seem to set a lot of fires. Just sayin’

  116. Jeremy says:

    Material isn’t “leaked” when it’s stolen.

  117. Anonymous says:

    “LulzSec’s latest release represents the greatest single concentration of incompetent tattoos in recorded history.”

    i guess you dont watch the NBA.

  118. Soliloquy says:

    This got me twice. At first I thought it was a real ice cream sandwich. And also that it was 75 cents. It’s cute, I suppose? And also embarrassed?

    • jeligula says:

      The headline did state “this is a seventy-five dollar felt ice cream sandwich.”  There was no misrepresentation.

  119. Mujokan says:

    They are large, friendly, pocket-sprung creatures that live quiet, private lives in the marshes of Sqornshellous Zeta, where they “follop and vollue” to amuse themselves.

  120. travtastic says:

    This is something I see a lot on Etsy. An item looks really, really cool. But then I look at the price, and I wonder who in the hell would actually pay that.

    • heather says:

      It depends on how much you love art, I guess. If you want to pay $5 for a shitty toy from China that you let your dog wrangle with, that’s one thing. But if you want a sculpture you can display in your home that makes you happy to look at, expect to pay the price. Also, you have no idea how long it takes to make one of these things and make them well. This is one person, making art in their home. If you pay $75 for one item (most of her stuff is not that expensive, by the way) that means she got paid approximately $2 an hour for her time. *Cue in a rainbow and “the more you know” music*

  121. travtastic says:

    Especially when there’s stuff like this:

    http://www.etsy.com/listing/44449469

  122. Talia says:

    It’s adorable! Not $75 worth of adorable, though, much as I respect the time and effort the artist put into it. Also, if someone took a bite out of me, I’d be crying too. :P

    • BarBarSeven says:

      Is the ice cream sandwich sad because a bite was taken out of it? Or rather after the bite was taken it reflected on it’s life and existence and realized the horrific reality: This is all the ice cream sandwich’s life was ever destined to be…

  123. herartsheloves says:

    As a seller pricing is tricky, cover your costs for materials, your time etc. However, I try to look at every robot I make from the buyers view. I understand making a really big and expensive item to catch the eyes of potential buyers, but for a felt sculpture that seems a bit high. Maybe it was a typo? I had $550.00 (actually suppose to be $5.50) for shipping for a few days or so before noticing. It was stumbled. I was modified.

    Still super cute is priceless.

    • travtastic says:

      That’s really the key to selling your work. Its value is $0 if you set the price high enough that no one actually buys it.

  124. Huwman says:

    At that price you’d think it might at least contain a piece of the Balloon Boy’s saucer….

  125. princessalex says:

    I thought it might be a typo, too.  So, I went to her website.  Nope.  Not a typo.  But, I honestly don’t know how she sells anything at those prices.  I get the idea of charging enough to cover your cost of materials and labor. 

    But, you have to also consider what is a reasonable price to expect people to pay.  If the price to cover all your costs is much more than what people will reasonably pay, then you might just want to make those things for gifts — for people who will really appreciate them. 

  126. reithe says:

    If it were a mattress sized ice cream sandwich of cuteness, $75 might be reasonable …

  127. Corey Marie Parkhill says:

    ceci ne pas une ice cream sandwich.  

    That’s a piece of art that represents an ice cream sandwich, that someone made by hand.I personally don’t have that kind of money in my budget for plush food either, but I don’t feel it’s my place to tell an artist what they can or can’t charge for what they create.  You can click over to the sold page (http://www.etsy.com/shop/SteffBomb/sold) and see that plenty of people DO have the budget for that, too.

    (Full disclosure of bias: I’m an Etsy/hand-made artist, too.)

  128. polm23 says:

    Make it an ottoman and I’m in. 

  129. Jorpho says:

    The sandwich weeps, its accusatory gaze reminding you constantly that your destructive gluttony is the source of pain and suffering.

    This is not cute.

  130. jeligula says:

    The face should have been opposite the bite.  This one implies that sentient ice cream sandwiches have evolved with no symmetry.

  131. dross1260 says:

    Beuysicle?

  132. RJ says:

    She must be a student of the Ralph Lauren school of self-evaluation.

    Yes, Ralphie, I’m looking at your skull cufflinks.

  133. Steff Bomb says:

    holy shit! i made that ice cream sandwich!

    it takes me about two solid days of hand stitching just to make one felt ice cream sandwich. i usually under price everything i make because i understand that unlike paintings its not looked at as valuable art, but this is my sole source of income and those guys are not easy to sew. if you break it down to how much money i’m making (not including cost of materials) i actually make somewhere around $1.50 an hour…but it’s ok because i love that i get to do this and i don’t mind the extra work. : )

  134. Phil Treeson says:

    The real ones don’t melt very much.  They just spread out a little, lose some height, and harden.  That plus a couple magic markers…

  135. Ryan Griffin says:

    running to walmart to buy enough felt to make this FURNITURE sized.

    • travtastic says:

      I linked to a pretty big pillow further up the thread. But you’re going to need two and a matching comfy sofa.

  136. kyramidx3 says:

    So not only are the products severely overpriced, but in a lot of cases it takes up to 7 weeks to ship said product, according to her feedback.

    Don’t get me wrong, the things she makes are adorable. But I’m not spending $75 (the pizza plush will leave you $350 poorer) on something (not including shipping), and then waiting 2 months to get what I ordered, when I could go out to AC Moore or Jo Ann Fabrics and make the same thing for about 5 or 10 bucks, and 30 minutes.

    • hogan says:

      what did Picasso say about art that seemed to be so simple and take such a short time to create?

    • pambamboo says:

      Yeah……maybe you could make it – but you didn’t.  Perhaps it would help if you look at this as art rather than as a toy.  And the maker as an artist, not a part-time crafter.  And art takes time to make particularly when the artist is making more than one item.  Jeesh.

      Also:  you don’t have to buy it; BB just wanted to show you something cute!

      Why so snarky everybody?

    • As a hand crafter, I would *love* to see your 30 minute version of this :)

  137. Terry Border says:

    Soon as the maker is dead, you’ll all be kicking yourselves that you didn’t grab this one up.

  138. I’ve seen her stuff in person, and it’s all very well made and that takes time.  Unless you’re magic, you couldn’t possibly make it in “30 minutes”.  If you’re magic, I envy you. 

    In addition to SB, I know a lot of plush art makers (yep, it’s art!) and they toil and toil to make such awesomeness and trust me – none of them are millionaires.  Or even thousandaires.  It’s not Walmart, she’s making them by hand (not to mention coming up with the ideas, drafting patterns and of course paying for the felt – not $5 or $10 worth, mind you) and making them.  Anyone can copy, this here is the real deal.  Can’t afford it?  I get it.  I can’t afford some of my favorite artists work and it pains me.  BUT I can buy a print, a smaller painting, or a stuffed hamburger and save my dollars until I can afford something bigger and more exclusive. 

    PS she’s a person with feelings, people, and she’s reading this.  It’s something I try to remember every time I comment, hope everyone else can do the same.

  139. I have watched this artist work, up close and personal. The detail and love that go into each piece is incredible and the finished products are light years ahead of other products that are out there. So go ahead and buy some felt for a couple of bucks and try to copy the originator. You can’t. And by the   way, I’m a professional artist, and have been for more years than most of you have been on the planet. If you can’t afford something, don’t buy it, but don’t work over somebody who’s out there doing her best.

  140. Benny Kline says:

    Steff’s handcrafted plush products are high quality, well-designed and fun. They are “designer” plush. If you don’t want to spend $75 on Ice Cream Sammy, don’t. I sell plenty of her plushes on my site and the customers are always happy with their purchases. I’m not ever going to buy a Ferrari, but I think they’re awesome and I understand why they are so expensive. Same goes for Steff Bomb plushes- they’re high-end products. (And to all you detractors with more opinions than money, she does sell products in the $15 range.) Go hate on someone else.

    • heather says:

      Thank you. Very important distinction to make – these are high end. If you don’t love plush art, you aren’t going to spend $75 on a piece, and that’s just fine. I’ve seen people drop more than that on things I thought were ugly, stupid, not worth that price, etc… but for those of us who love this stuff, it’s the art we want in our homes and for Steff’s exclusive stuff, we’re willing to pay for it because it IS Steff Bomb.

  141. Pickleschlitz says:

    Some Good Humor there!

  142. Nytespryte says:

    If a seller has high prices, decent sales and a fairly poor turn around time, lowering their prices would be a huge mistake.

    Either your sales don’t increase and you make less money overall, or your sales do increase and your turn around time gets worse which will probably lead to sales dropping off again anyway.

    Even if something is not worth the money on some more general scale of worth, if something takes you forever to make, it is better for you to sell fewer at a higher price, even if it does not seem fair to many others by their scale of worth.

    I’ve bought a moderately expensive corset from someone with terrible turn around and fairly poor communication but it is the most comfortable and interesting corset I’ve ever had.  She sells tons of them despite a number of bad reviews.  They end up being worth the price and the hassle to alot of people.

  143. kyramidx3 says:

    The point that at least I am trying to make here, is that I do not doubt her love for what she does. I understand that times are tough right now, and every dollar counts. Personally, I just got a job that pays $9 an hour at 15 hours a week, and I couldn’t be more ecstatic.

    The problem here though, is that it is a 5.5″ plush, that although it has a high adorableness factor, it is $75. The seller herself, stated that it took her 50 hours of straight work, to make this. That is absurd. Completely absurd. Say that she works 8 hours a day on the thing, that would take her approx. 6.25 days to complete, so just say a week. Even if it took me, say, 2 hours to make the same thing, that would be more convenient than paying $80 or so (including shipping), andwaiting two months to get the thing.

  144. Maybe the “poor turn around time” complained about on this board/Etsy is due to the fact that these ACTUALLY take about 50hrs to make.  That would be weird….   

  145. Wow. I don’t see why this is such a big deal! It’s a hand-made plush you buy straight from the artist. It ain’t 3 bucks… People then wonder why mass-produced, cheap garbage is taking over everything.

    I see mass-produced plush toys that cost 30, 40, 50 dollars all the time! $75 doesn’t go far and doesn’t amount to much these days. If you don’t personally like the art, that’s fine but there is no need to spin it like the artist is being absurd. An original, carefully hand-crafted object for less than a hundred bucks is hardly abusive.

    Also, while I’m here, BB isn’t accepting my password or e-mail anymore. Should I just open a new account from scratch?   

  146. Adam McIver says:

    I will fight everyone here in the face for complaining about my friend Steff. Yes, that includes Steff.

  147. @Travtastic and kyramidx3- She didn’t say it takes her 50 hours, she said that after labour and materials, her net PROFIT amounts to $1.50 an hour.

    • travtastic says:

      Maybe I read it wrong, but up there it said “(not including cost of materials) i actually make somewhere around $1.50 an hour” [My emphasis]. That might be a point of confusion here.

      I’m familiar with etsy, amazon and ebay’s fees and general profit points, the numbers seemed a little off to me, so I said so. I wasn’t expecting a bunch of friends to jump in and tell me that some people would pay it, because I know that. I was expressing personal surprise, not disbelief.

      No matter what it cost to make, I’m clearly not buying it, and more power to her and anyone who does. I’ve depended on online income multiple times in my life, and I know what it’s like.

  148. Abe Lincoln Jr. says:

    let it be said I love steff’s work and I think the rule here is different strokes for different folks…. OK so you wouldnt pay $75 for a handmade plush. Thats great! Good for you! But tell me that none of you havent totally overspent of some uber nerdy Star Wars/Buffy/Wolverine/Hentai/Steampunk/ collectable? Come on… this is a funny battle between Boing Boing Nerds and Toy Nerds. What say we join forces and bash on clueless PR Drones eh?

  149. Jamie Morrow says:

    Don’t forget it was featured on Martha Stewart! If I made something that was featured on a high profile site like that, then heck yes I would charge a little more for it. I personally own a carrot and the grilled cheese with tomato soup combo and they are pretty badass. I would like to own more but I’m a broke college student. Sometimes when you see something and it screams WANT to you, you reward yourself. Similar to how people buy expensive clothes, electronics and whatever else. 

    There is another artist that brought up a really good point about pricing and her stuff is even more expensive than Steff Bomb’s plush. http://mimikirchner.com/blog/ 
    Who wants to get paid 1.50 an hour for something they are hand-making? Not me. It’s like any other job in the sense that they have that job to make money to support themselves. 1.50 an hour isn’t going to cut it if that’s your primary source of income. 

  150. zombiebob says:

    def not my thing, though interesting

  151. jennybean42 says:

    A little spendy, especially when it is a kind of ripoff of My paper crane, which has been selling these for years:
    http://www.mypapercrane.com/

    • travtastic says:

      Well let’s be honest. Japan has probably been doing this for thousands of years.

    • BarBarSeven says:

      It’s not a ripoff if someone asks for what one believes is an outrageous price for something. It is outrageous of anyone pays more than what something is worth. And in this case if someone does pay $75 and believes that is what the item is worth, whatever. One moment folks complain about slave labor conditions in China/India. The next moment someone in the U.S. asks a fair domestic U.S. price based on time, energy and effort and folks complain.

  152. scoot says:

    How long will it take before you’ll be able to buy one of these for $2.99 at your local Target store?

    • zombiebob says:

      Target? Don’t you mean Urban outfiters? Except it would be a manic-depressive cannibalistic silk king cone.

  153. Mister44 says:

    Felting ain’t easy.

  154. apoxia says:

     Check out the felt banjo: http://www.etsy.com/listing/50561535/twanga-twanga-twanga-tenor-banjo
    I am truly impressed.

  155. lewis_stoole says:

    maybe it is stuffed with with high quality, all-natural fibers like blueberry kush or trainwreck?

  156. Jay Kusnetz says:

    Here is a video of her making a carrot. It’s greatly speadup, but in 3 minutes you can see the amount of work that goes into one of these. http://vimeo.com/13900594

  157. michael porcelli says:

    OOOOOOHHHHHKAY PEOPLE! How many of you have spent a shitton more on an apple product that does the exact same thing as another company’s product? No more is apple a ‘good guy’ they want to make a profit and people readly shell out extra cash. The maker sells them and that is awesome, s/he could charge $300 and get it because it is handmade and awesome.

  158. Xeni Jardin says:

    Yes, but is it vegan?

  159. kate! says:

    There is no problem with her work being priced at $75, the price isn’t up to you. You have the choice to not purchase the item, and allow someone who appreciates it do so. The problem here, though, is that you think you have the ability to create such quality work in 2 hours.

    Frankly, you’re incredibly rude to continue to dissect her price and claim you can duplicate her artwork.

    Also, “rip off” of My Paper Crane? Hardly.

  160. patelanjali says:

    wow…
    nice ice cream sandwich…

  161. rastronomicals says:

    I am having a love affair with this ice cream sandwich

  162. jennybean42 says:

    I can’t believe this needs to be said: When someone puts their art for sale, or out on the internet, it is going to be subject to critique.  Some people are going to love it, some people are going to tear it down because they have nothing better to do, and some people are going to have a legitimate critique. (It’s too expensive/they could do it themselves) This is the nature of the internet, and frankly, of art critique. 

    Just because I’m not willing to spend 75 dollars on an ice cream sandwich plush, doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in supporting a “fair price” for handmade gifts.   Mostly, it means that my priorities are different. 

    The fact that the artist and her friends need to come over here and defend it shows a bit of an immaturity, actually. 

    sorry if this sounds “rude.”

    • Gloria Yip says:

      Responding to critique is “a bit of immaturity”? As legitimate as it is for strangers to critique an artist’s public art, is it not also legitimate for an artist’s rights to respond and defend herself? Personally, I find dialogue more interesting than this weird idea of some kind of silent sacrifice by the artist. 

      Take a moment to look online (or in your local library!) and you’ll find plenty of examples by many famous artists responding quite publicly to critiques.

      • jennybean42 says:

        Oh, I don’t think HER response to the critique is immature. You are right there.
         More her friends “I will fight you to your face for saying bad stuff about this artist..” that I was commenting on. Commentary on the piece does not equal commentary about the artist.   It just seemed, to me, to be thin skinned.

        (On that note, perhaps using the word “ripoff” was more emotionally charged than I meant to say. My bad.)

        • blurgh says:

          You mean the quote “I will fight everyone here in the face for complaining about my friend Steff. Yes, that includes Steff.”?
          You think this is thin-skinned, immature response to critique? I read it as at least attempting to inject some humour into an otherwise rather po-faced thread. The hint being in their threat to attack Steff, in the defence of Steff, which is rather silly. I could be wrong.

          On the other hand, I rather applaud the artist and friends turning up, as long as they can maintain their dignity. Too many people get critical on the internet, assuming the artist won’t be reading what they’re writing, let alone be willing to engage with them. Maybe people will be less willing to slag off others behind their backs when they realise they’re actually slagging them off to their faces!

        • To be fair, ONE of her friend made a silly comment in jest. All other comments made in her favour seem reasonable to me and were rather useful considering that these people actually KNOW about felting as an art and its potential value.

          Not every opinion or knee-jerk reaction qualifies as legitimate art
          critique. Art criticism requires that one have at least *some* knowledge of the
          medium used, of how to evaluate the finished product and the market
          value. Saying “I don’t like it, I don’t get it, it’s not worth the price” and skipping away expecting no input whatsoever from the artist is called a ‘drive-by’ critique in many art communities.  

          I personally know very little about felting but as an artist myself, I have no trouble seeing that it probably took several hours of work, that the finished piece (while not a theme I personally have interest in) is well-made and polished and- evidenced by her fan’s vouching- that there is clearly a market for it. If it takes her a few hours and she values her labour at somewhere like 10 bucks an hour, it can EASILY amount to 50-60 bucks right there. I don’t see what’s so outrageous about an artist demanding a regular, very conservative working wage for her own work, especially if she has earned a consumer base (which can take years to build, most often *at a loss*). This is hardly crass exploitation or dishonest, as several people here seem to be implying.

          If this was some malformed lump of Fimo being sold for $300, I could understand the snark and puzzlement.  
           

    • Antinous / Moderator says:

      Here’s a good rule of thumb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI

      • jennybean42 says:

        This will be my last reply, because I really don’t feel like I should be bickering over a felt ice cream sandwich on the internet.

        But I wasn’t the one who said that I could do it in an hour– I appreciate the time and effort that go into these things. I just said it looked like My Paper Crane.  I shouldn’t have used the word ripoff.

        Looking at her other work I’d have to say that I think the banjo is about a thousand times cooler and better than the ice cream sandwich.

  163. Max Minor says:

    You know that thing that moms’ say about “if you can’t say anything nice….?” Well, I wish the internet’s mom had said that.

  164. ReboundDesigns says:

    I think it’s a little unfair to accuse Steff of ripping of My Paper Crane.  Yes, both make food stuffs out of felt.  But their styles are very different, no one who was familiar with their work would ever confuse the two.  There are only so many foods, there will be some overlap, but that doesn’t mean anyone got copied.  Just as there is room in the world for many real ice cream sandwiches made by different people, there is room for multiple felt ones. 

  165. knoxblox says:

    I often criticize Etsy sellers, and gleefully chuckle at the website
    Regretsy, but I find it hard to knock the sticker price of seemingly
    good Etsy stuff like this.

    If you really want to crap your pants over some of the prices at Etsy,
    go to the website and do the advanced search, setting the prices at
    “high to low”. Sure, some of the very top matches are there only to snag
    views, but once you get into the heart of it, you really start to get a sense
    of what some people think about their art.

  166. Mujokan says:

    This must be the most controversial anthropomorphic ice-cream sandwich since that time John Belushi went to Dairy Queen while tripping.

  167. griever says:

    It seems like a lot of people value art on a cost per volume basis. This one looks to be about $5/cu in. Have fun with that engagement ring fellas…

  168. Denise Weiss says:

    i have seen this artist at work. what separates her from the rest of the boys is that her hand work is impeccable and yes, it takes her two days to make one of these. it’s the intensive labor you don’t see in this piece (each stitch is carefully hidden), that makes this ice cream sandwich a fabric work of art. and with 16 hours at minimum wage for one of these, i think it’s a steal.

    i’m a crafter who does all of my finishing by hand using no electric tools and i know how much time goes into each item i make. the public often compares our prices for the work we do to the prices they see for sometimes inferior, machine-made products they see in stores made by companies using inexpensive labor and materials at reduced wholesale prices. crafters often make a little more than the cost of their supplies and time and we need to live, too.

  169. As a wise human once said “It ain’t art if it doesn’t evoke a powerful response.” :)

  170. PlutoniumX says:

    My first thought was whoa! That is expensive!  But after reading how much time goes into hand crafting this piece of art, I am completely OK with it.  It isn’t something I would likely by, but I can appreciate it as a pretty neat bit of handcrafted artwork. 

    Seems like the artist has a following and fans.  That is great.  I also read her friends statement as a humorous comment to lighten the mood. 

    If you think you can make this in two hours, go ahead.  I’ve picked up a few new hobbies that way.  At the very least, you’ll gain some insight. 

  171. princessalex says:

    I wanted to clarify my comment from way up there.  I am a crafter at heart, and have spent an incredible amount of time creating some of my creations.  I was noting that I have thought about selling some of the things I make, but can’t justify the cost I would need to charge to even pay for my materials, not to even mention for my labor.  Which is why I’ve chosen to simply make things for gifts.  Then, I’m very choosy about who to give these to — never to someone who wouldn’t appreciate the effort that went into it.

    And, I guess I don’t “get” the plushy interest mostly for two reasons:  1 — I live in the desert, and EVERYthing gets dusty.  So, I choose to not have a lot of things that sit and collect dust. (And, felt can’t just be dusted — it would have to be washed, which would probably ruin the artistic effect.)   2. — I have pets.  Who consider anything that’s not nailed down to be Theirs.  To play with as they will.  :-)

    I can see the care and hard work that goes into making these things.  I just don’t personally see it as something I would purchase. 

  172. These are the same people who look at modern art and say “my seven year old could do that” ummmm no they couldn’t, and no they didn’t.

  173. it occurs to me that this ice cream sandwich could have a torrid affair with my glitter vinyl ice cream cone made by Sebastian Curadeau (that I have mounted on the wall with some other awesome art by some other awesome artists):
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/kikuhandmade/4441385428/in/set-72157623514729915
    (close up of similar cones:  http://conesandstuff.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-cones-for-kids.html
    with their anger and ice cream sammy’s sadness, could the end result be anything other than passion?)
    and that banjo is INSANE.  I saw it in person at the Constructor Craft Fair, it is more intricate than you can image.  That’s love.

  174. Luke Oeth says:

    It seems like the entire brouhaha over the price is coming directly from the tone set by the post’s title. It’s like writing “This is a three hundred-dollar painting of a monkey on the back of a naked woman playing a ukelele,” which totally downplays that the absurdity of objects like this is actually what makes them unique, wonderful and valuable to some folks.

  175. eric uchalik says:

    Steff- your work is amazing & internet comments are always just full of turds.

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