Motivational speaker fails to motivate 21 people to walk over hot coals fast enough

Photo: Randy Stewart (cc)

Twenty-one were burned by hot coals at a seminar hosted by motivational speaker Tony Robbins. Carol Pogash at The New York Times describes the cultish atmosphere of victim-blaming (including by themselves) after the show, which included a "performance coach" going on about the uselessness of modern medicine.

Mr. Robbins was not available for comment. A member of his staff explained that he rarely gives interviews except to “Piers Morgan Tonight” and the “Today” show.

If only the healing power of laughter worked remotely! But it doesn't.

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That_Anonymous_Coward

Reminds me of the guru who was telling people they needed to live according to his system to be healthy and happy… and then he developed cancer…
EvilTerran

Lol, keyword-based advert targeting.

http://i.imgur.com/nZxuO.jpg
- http://boingboing.net/ Rob Beschizza
  
  Google sees all.
  - dculberson
    
    Major contender for Worst Facial Hair Ever.
    - BombBlastLightingWaltz
      
      Perhaps, but a great set of pearly whites.
    - fuzzyfuzzyfungus
      
      Do you have something against the unholy trifecta of (in order of appearance) a pedostache, a soul patch, and chin-pubes?
  - mercedes42
    
    Two kinds of doctors have given it the green light!
- Cowicide
  
  Fixed.
  
  Edit: Sigh, I hate you sometimes, Disqus…
  
  http://i.imgur.com/iOK8K.jpg
  - Antinous / Moderator
    
    Sometimes?
http://twitter.com/J_Plotkin James Plotkin

This guy’s always been a bit of a weirdo. This confirms it. The beauty is how he got the clients who got burned (both figuratively and literally) to blame themselves for the event. That’s special!
- fuzzyfuzzyfungus
  
  It can be helpful; but you don’t need to be a religion to be a cult…
  - http://twitter.com/sirkowski Sirkowski
    
    The cult IS the religion.
  - C W
    
    WHAT can be helpful?
Zhiva

The reality is 80 percent of prescription drugs do nothing to change the disease itself.

– Don’t we (humanity) have enough trouble with flu changing on its own?
- bcsizemo
  
  You know taken in a literal sense that statement is probably correct.
  
  Most drugs we take don’t do a lot to the actual virus/bacteria/disease, they work in conjunction with our bodies to help stop what is happening.
  
  Obviously antibiotics do kill the bacteria, but think about the amount of prescription drugs on the market for things that are not life threatening…think about the number of commercials I see for drugs that aren’t saving lives just making them easier. I’m not saying that’s bad, just pointing out that 80% probably isn’t to far off the mark for the statement.
  
  But honestly that statement is one of those twisted logic things that is designed to suck people in and make them believe your deception in the first place.
  - C W
    
    “But honestly that statement is one of those twisted logic things that is designed to suck people in and make them believe your deception in the first place.”
    
    Right, it’s generic to the point of willful deception, which is why any surface level “truth” is irrelevant.
http://evilbobdayjob.blogspot.com/ Deidzoeb

Sounds like postcolonial karma. In the cultures where this trick developed, don’t they use certain kinds of coals or rocks that don’t get as hot as others? Hope they don’t try sawing a woman in half before learning the secrets of that illusion.

“I just didn’t have enough faith in the buzzsaw,” said the woman’s upper half.
- Wreckrob8
  
  Coal is not a very good conductor of heat and if you walk normally your feet do not come into contact with the coals long enough to cause burns. It is physics not karma. If you slow down (either from a lack of or excess of faith) your feet will get burnt.
  - SomeGuyNamedMark
    
    Especially if they let a layer of ash form on top. Good insulator.
  - http://vincenzoravina.tumblr.com/ Vincenzo Ravina
    
    Going too quickly also burns.
    
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dgpsI1MdQI
- Christopher Carr
  
  The coal preparation person screwed up. You need a good layer of ash, which, as SGNM notes, is a good thermal insulator.
Just_Ok

21 failures out of how many successes?
- robdobbs
  
  5979 at this event alone.
  - Diogenes
    
    Okay, put that on the poster;
    “Also included: Firewalking! (some of you will go to the hospital immediately after)”
David Voss

I wonder if the burn victims got a refund so they could pay for some of that useless modern medicine, like skin grafts and stuff.

Mythbusters have tackled the whole firewalking thing (what haven’t they done?). If you know the tricks, you can do it. If not, you get burned like Adam did. All explicable by useless modern science.
- http://vincenzoravina.tumblr.com/ Vincenzo Ravina
  
  Here’s Adam burning his feet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dgpsI1MdQI
http://twitter.com/burbrujacrispa Crispa

I’m having a deja vu from Patrick Swayze’s character in Donnie Darko
Scixual

At the risk of sounding like an ass: isn’t coal-walking one of those seemingly-impressive things motivational groups do that really turns out to be unimpressive when actually understood?

You may call it victim-blaming, but it seems likely that these 21 out of thousands did something different — or their coalbed was misprepared, if theyw ere all on the same run.
- ChickieD
  
  I thought that you needed a layer of ash to protect the feet for it to not burn your feet. I wonder if after other people had walked across it if the ash got too thin.
http://twitter.com/zshallbetter Zach Shallbetter

I’ve actually been to this event and walked on coals. The entire idea is to get the courage/motivation to solve issues and improve your life. It makes sense and didn’t involve any weird cultish activity.

Oh and when I was there the room had 3k plus people in it.
- EvilTerran
  
  I’m sure those poor sods who got their feet burnt are feeling real courageous and motivated now.
  - hymenopterid
    
    Actually, I’m working next to one of those burnt soled sods right now. She seems pretty happy about the whole experience.
    “I only got burnt when I looked down”, she tells me.
    
    Call me a skeptic, but maybe she just looked down when she started to get burnt. Pain has a way of shortcutting other perceptions. I remember burning myself with a cherry-red filler rod once. My first thought was, “who just screamed?” The understanding that I had hurt myself came a split second later.
    - robotnik
      
      And when understanding came, did you scream again? (I think I would have.)
      - hymenopterid
        
        Mostly just swearing at my own stupidity. It was the most intense pain I’ve ever felt, but it was only for an instant.
    - Antinous / Moderator
      
      “I only got burnt when I looked down”
      
      Yeah, I can’t levitate because I don’t have enough faith in myself. Sucks.
- Wreckrob8
  
  I imagine there is a feeling of elation mixed with relief afterwards, but is it really ‘life-changing’? Presumably people become blasé the more frequently they firewalk. For some people it is just a job.
- http://twitter.com/sirkowski Sirkowski
  
  Walking on hot coals that might burn your feet might actually do the opposite of improving your life.
- Diogenes
  
  Wouldn’t you say walking across burning coals is itself a “weird cultish activity”? I would.
Gary61

“Tony … you have to BELIEVE, not just in your head, or your heart, but you have to let the belief wash all over you and through you, until it’s impossible for you not to believe ….
Just FEEL it, Tony, feel it as a part of yourself, and you can believe!
And maybe they won’t sue for their injuries.”
- http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke
  
  While I doubt Robbins employs homeopathic lawyers, they probably are douchebags.
awjt

Was wondering when this guy would fry himself. I’ve read his book Awaken the Giant Within, and I’ll say it was decent. But I heard about some of his lifestyle choices and crazy not-good stuff he’s done, and woo woo beliefs and became disillusioned & no longer a fan.
ReDQLulz

Evidently ‘bull shit’ trumps ‘cool moss’
- EH
  
  Well he is a proponent of colonics.
  - Diogenes
    
    How about hot coal colonics?
http://www.facebook.com/marko.raos Marko Raos

Coal walking is more in the category of “overcoming your fears” rather than “miracles” and I believe even Robbins doesn’t claim otherwise. So, imo, it does have some psychotherapeutic value, especially in treating neurosis, depression, etc.
As for poor-old Tony, that was bound to happen man, the law of large numbers and all.
A good life lesson for everybody involved though: sometimes you fail, even through no fault of your own. Learn to live with it!
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  A good life lesson for everybody involved though
  
  If I get so desperate for a ‘life lesson’ that I end up paying some guy to let me walk on hot coals, please just shoot me and give my possessions to charity.
  - http://www.facebook.com/marko.raos Marko Raos
    
    Well, some people obviously are “so desperate…” Who are we to judge? Personally I find Robbins and most of his ilk obnoxious, but there is no denying that he popularized some quite valid psychological techniques (NLP in his case) and helped a lot of people who would have sunk into depression, substance abuse or *gasp* religious fundamentalism.
    Personally he and his techniques might not be my cup of tea, but just like with Oprah, I consider his contribution to the society generally a positive one.
  - Jonathan Roberts
    
    I really don’t get the whole ‘life lesson’ thing either. About ten years ago I read about the science behind firewalking. The next time I went camping with my friends we waited until the fire had burned for a while, then spread it out and waited until it had a layer of ash on it. You could walk on it as long as you didn’t wait too long or walk on the red parts. Walking on damp grass first helped too, and as we had plenty of time and the fire was quite small we were able to try a few methods that worked better or worse. Nobody got burned, although if they had, we’d probably just have laughed and given them some treatment for pretty minor burns.
    
    I don’t see the appeal of paying people large amounts of money for doing essentially the same thing, although I suppose it has some value as a graphic illustration of conquering emotional barriers and not choking when making decisions.
saidas

“Fire walking” is so Eighties!
- http://www.aarongilliland.com/ Aaron Gilliland
  
  It’s so Twin Peaks.
  - robdobbs
    
    I just started watching that again on the Netflix, good show.
bbonyx

Mr. Banana Hands
delfinclutch

Someone must’ve yelled “SHALLOW HAL WANTS A GAL” when people were halfway across the coals.
Walter Reade

I dunno. A hot coal between my toes would certainly motivate ME to cross faster.
http://www.facebook.com/geordie.korper Geordie Korper

I hope we get to find out what the actual cause of the burns was. Tens of thousands of people have done the walk successfully. For that matter it appears that for 99.5% of the attendees of this particular event there were no issues. What was different this time for those specific people?

I’ve done the firewalk and although there is a bit of “power of belief” involved in the Anthony Robbins pitch it was always clear that the main point of it is that even things that you feel to be impossible can be accomplished if you set aside your fear. There was never any question that the reason you don’t get burned is because of the slow burning hardwood coals that are poor conductors of heat, it only takes a few steps to make it across the less than two body lengths of hot coals and the starting and ending locations are both kept moistened. Even knowing the science standing there in front of the coals it isn’t easy to take that first step.

And the actual quote about medicine was “[pharmaceutical companies] do not have your best interests at heart. The reality is 80 percent of prescription drugs do nothing to change the disease itself.” A statement which is probably accurate. The fact is most drugs don’t change the disease. They treat the symptoms. And that’s only if we discount the many instances of drugs making it to the market which when re-tested were little better than placebo. A fact which is due to the pharmaceutical companies being profit seeking entities who in fact do not have your best interests at heart.

All of the above not withstanding there certainly are issues with cultish nature of some of the things Anthony Robbins does however in order to to combat that we should use skepticism ourselves to try to determine fact from hyperbole.
- http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C3UF3SHLFNHONCDKJG543B22PY Evan
  
  “‘The reality is 80 percent of prescription drugs do nothing to change the disease itself.’ A statement which is probably accurate. The fact is most drugs don’t change the disease. They treat the symptoms. ”
  
  Some treat the symptoms but they are far from the majority.
  
  The “80%” and “most” are completely made up baloney statements and far from “reality”. You should take your own advice about determining “fact from hyperbole” because your state is overflowing with inaccurate hyperbole.
- CH
  
  “[pharmaceutical companies] do not have your best interests at heart. The reality is 80 percent of prescription drugs do nothing to change the disease itself.”
  “Motivational speakers” and other bs hawkers looooooove to make statements like this. It sounds just right, it sounds believable… and people just lap it up without questioning.
  
  But, take a moment to think about what the person actually is trying to say. Sure, pharmaceutical companies might not have your best interests at heart. Sure, a lot of medicines treat only symptoms (headache pills… you really want to go get a full medical for every headache?) a lot of medicines treat the disease (antibiotics). For a lot of diseases we don’t know how to treat the actual disease, so treating the symptoms is all we got. And? His point is exactly what? That Big Pharma is witholding ground breaking research? Or what? I cannot quite come up with anything else.
  
  I bet the 80% was pulled right out of a hat… not too big to make it sound straight away invalid, but large enough to make the people shocked and open to anything they sell.
- EH
  
  Sing it, brother! Jenny McCarthy for President 2012!
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  The fact is most drugs don’t change the disease
  
  You mean that pain meds don’t cure cancer??? Well, let’s stop using them, then.
- C W
  
  “And the actual quote about medicine was “[pharmaceutical companies] do not have your best interests at heart. The reality is 80 percent of prescription drugs do nothing to change the disease itself.” A statement which is probably accurate. ”
  A statement which implies more than it states, which makes it all the more sad that you say ”
  All of the above not withstanding there certainly are issues with cultish nature of some of the things Anthony Robbins does however in order to to combat that we should use skepticism ourselves ”
  You’re more on the cult side than you are a skeptic.
fenester

My understanding of the science behind coal-walking is that a water vapor “barrier” forms between your feet and the coals from the water being evaporated from your skin. My guess is that most “fails” result from the coals being not hot enough to form the vapor barrier.
- Mitchell Glaser
  
  This is not true. There was a guy who tested this theory by wrapping his feet up in plastic or something to encourage them to sweat, then he walked over the coals – and they stuck to his feet. He was horribly burned.
  - http://www.facebook.com/marko.raos Marko Raos
    
    ’tube it or it didn’t happen :D
    - Mitchell Glaser
      
      I wish there was a video of the event I described, but as I recall it happened a long time ago.
- Rob McCleave
  
  There’s no vapor or ash barrier. It’s just time and temperature. Keep moving and you won’t burn your feet. The only science involved is thermal conductivity.
- EH
  
  You’re thinking of testing an iron to see how hot it is.
- Diogenes
  
  Then why doesn’t that same evaporation protect me from burning my fingers on a hot cast iron pan handle? Sounds shaky.
http://www.aarongilliland.com/ Aaron Gilliland

Piers Morgan Tonight and The Today Show, pillars of journalism and hard-hitting inquiry.
- http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke
  
  In a better world, he’d be restricted to Coast to Coast AM or something.
- David Walker
  
  Anyone watching Piers Morgan has to pretty desperate already so Robbins is just targeting his market efficiently.
Mitchell Glaser

A couple years back a self-help guru named James Ray managed to kill several people in this same way: directing them to do something utterly stupid to prove their courage and dedication. Granted, his sweat-lodges (another trick borrowed from ancient culture and exploited by snake oil salesmen) were much more dangerous than fire walking, but it differs only in degree. Let’s be clear about this: both groups of people spent large sums of money to have some self-decreed expert place them in extreme danger.

They could have taken that money and bought themselves a thousand books, and having read them actually improved themselves. Or they could have taken the money and used it thoughtfully and charitably to improve someone else’s life, or any of an endless number of other good things. But instead they paid to have themselves tortured. Bravo.
- EH
  
  Do you have a point besides blaming stupid people for being stupid?
  - Mitchell Glaser
    
    Well I hoped the first paragraph would warn somebody that there are actually people who died making this same mistake. The second paragraph is an appeal to people to read books, which I feel is the only general-purpose treatment for stupidity. Aside from death, of course. The rest is just piling on.
- Wreckrob8
  
  He was promoting something called ‘harmonic wealth’ whatever the fuck that is. Of course there is nothing quite as motivational when it comes to discarding your critical faculties as well as your inhibitions as the possibility of conning others out of money. Ultimately for either the conman or the mark, it would seem. Traditional medicine generally does not charge fees.
Thad

Firewalking is old hat. Everybody knows that it is a matter of science and technique.

However, that doesn’t mean that we are all going to do it without a second thought. I’m not at all sure that I could bring myself to do it at all. So, old hat it maybe, but I can see its value for overcoming fear and challenging fixed ideas.

Mind you, I’m unlikely to be there, because all this “motivational” stuff is just too tedious and ridiculous for words. Hey ho… I guess that’s why I’m here, with my feet up in front of the internet…
Cowicide

Tony Robbins has always looked like the devil to me. Nothing against the man; I just think he looks like Satan.
- Diogenes
  
  If it walks like a duck…
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  He usually seems to me like a nice guy, but some of his ideas seem quite antithetical to the process of introspection.
  - http://www.facebook.com/marko.raos Marko Raos
    
    Heh, I actually discussed this with a criminal psychologist friend of mine who uses a lot of different techniques in her work, but specializes in CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) although she is versed in NLP (Neurolinguistic programming), the technique Tony bases his “school” on.
    In short, there is no panacea – different strokes for different folks. CBT does wonders for depression and neurosis in general while NLP is useful for ahedonia and certain specific types of depression. Personally CBT, being more analytical and introspective, works better for me, but there are people who respond better to the more “pro-active” and aggressive NLP.
    Ofc I’m talking only about his books and other NLP lit I’ve read. I’m really not that well versed on what goes on in his seminars…
robdobbs

So many of you come down hard on these people that pay to go to these motivational things with talk of scams and woo and cult being tossed around, but let’s not get too high on our own hog. I think it’s important to realise that these events are set up to help people. Ordinary, dumb, smart regular people.

A lot of people – I’d go so far as to say most people – are hamstrung in their inability to accomplish their own dreams, not because of an actual barrier but because of their own self-doubt. We think it’s impossible to start our own company; or quit this job we hate; start that new projects that are actually, if not easily accomplished – attainable with a bit of work and effort – like fire-walking. It’s not a trick, it’s physics but let me tell you, to a woman who’s raised 3 kids as a single mom, is afraid of spiders and camels and other irrational things, it’s neigh impossible. How can she believe she can start up a new career when she can’t even believe in physics? No matter how much you explain the science - until she walks across the coals and experiences it herself, she’s stuck. Afterwards, she can question other things she also thought were impossible – even if she’s one of the people burned. See, our fears are rarely as bad as we think they’ll be. Burns heal and she remains. Same thing happens when you conquer other fears too. This exercise is a reminder of that and that’s why it’s often used and is apparently very effective.

Many people who read this site, are perhaps cut from different jib. I get the feeling that we all take heart at a bit of challenge or change. We like to see what others have been able to do and accomplish, post and repost links and motivate ourselves and each other to do something we’ve wanted to do – regardless of the thoughts of failure. That might just describe me, but I look around elsewhere and see people afraid to do anything but keep on grinding on stuff they don’t like, in a life they wouldn’t have chosen, didn’t intend to but did. They’re not happy but can’t see a way to bring change into their lives. Well… people like Tony Robbins (I’ve never been to or bought any of his stuff – pirated some – but I can’t afford to participate) seem to be here to help people who recognise they want to change, to begin. And why not? Is it too expensive? Then don’t buy it, but if you can afford it and it does help you realise a bit more of your true potential – well, good on ya.
- Ashen Victor
  
  ” I think it’s important to realise that these events are set up to help people.”
  
  No, they are not. Those events are set to relieve people from their money.
  If they where set to really help people why not doing it for free?
  
  “Many people who read this site, are perhaps cut from different jib.”
  
  The best cut, indeed.
- C W
  
  “let’s not get too high on our own hog. I think it’s important to realise that these events are set up to help people”
  
  I don’t think you understand the concept of a “self help guru”. They exist to make money, not “help people”.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Arthur_Ray#Sweat_lodge_deaths
  - Antinous / Moderator
    
    I’ve actually been to events with a more spiritual focus where the speaker said, more or less, “I’m not your guru, your teacher or your parent. If you find what I have to say useful, good for you. If not, do what makes you happy.” Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be the norm.
  - robdobbs
    
    Did your university teach you how to science and math for free?
    
    I don’t mean to compare the two on an intellectual basis, but everyone wants to make money and just because they’re in the business of helping people doesn’t negate that.
    
    It’s fair to say, perhaps, that you don’t think it’s a good value for the money. That’s fine.
    
    As fore the wikilink; Batshit crazy. True. But there’s nutters everywhere: How many of you are going to argue against college football because of what happened at Penn State?
    - http://scavenger-ethic.blogspot.com/ scav
      
      Mine did. The UK government actually gave me a small grant to attend university and get a degree in Computer Science.
      
      Mind you, I live in the sinister socialist democracy of Scotland :)
      - Antinous / Moderator
        
        Free Alba!
Chuck

Ooh! Can the power of laughter heal people over videotape?
diginferno

Of course he failed to motivate them! When I look at his eyes I can see the back of his head.
vrplumber

What’s with the popularity of walking on hot coals? Maybe these motivational speakers should be motivating people to do something more useful.
http://www.facebook.com/lharden1 Laura Harden

Self-Edited for banal content.
http://redesigned.com redesigned

because walking across cold coals just isn’t impressive.
http://www.facebook.com/Vekkul Wyatt Smith

21 out of 6000, an event that has been going on literally for decades. Frankly, the fact that the media strictly applied reporting to the fractional minority of people who got burned and ignored the actual content of the event are exactly why people love Tony Robbins. It’s amusing AND ironic.
http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/KHUGSYMRDZ635QMFO5P6UA5MTM nunya

Ugh, my former company dragged the employees to a Tony Robbins lecture/firewalk back in the 90′s. At that lecture six people were burned out of a few hundred walkers. I remember him asking at the end and even saying “6 wasn’t bad”. Good thing he made us sign those liability releases.

No one in my company got burned. Felt like walking across freshly popped popcorn. But Tony Robbins says to think,”cool moss, cool moss”, while doing the walk.
666beast1

I think I see the problem. He failed to properly motivate the coals not to burn people.
http://www.facebook.com/jacob.henner Jacob Henner

Man, the coal industry should be ashamed of itself!