English town council wants to abolish apostrophes in street-names to end "confusion"

Discuss

80 Responses to “English town council wants to abolish apostrophes in street-names to end "confusion"”

  1. Brainspore says:

    Just imagine if someone tried to pull that crap in Hawai’i. Most of the street names there are forty percent apostrophe.

    • Stepan Riha says:

      Or rather ʻokina (sorry, I couldn’t stop my anal retentive self).

    • MB44 says:

      Theres no way that would fly.

    • Wreckrob8 says:

      In Hawai’ian the apostrophe represents the glottal stop, a distinct phoneme. In English, French, Italian, etc. the apostrophe represents the absence of something which often no longer actually exists creating double the confusion.

      • Xyzzy says:

        Examples for English..?  As far as I can recall, most of the time the apostrophe is in place of something that otherwise *is* there, as in can’t, he’s, she’ll…

        • Wreckrob8 says:

          Not in the possessive or genitive where it replaces the -e- from the Old English genitive affix -es but not the -a- of the Old English plural -as. Both these affixes have fallen together in Modern English as simply -s. This is the use of the apostrophe which causes all the confusion. It does seem to be getting worse. The apostrophe now randomly migrates between plurals, genitives and third person singular present tense verb forms with no sense of what it might actually mean or how it functions.

          • Anarcissie says:

             Rational people would have gotten rid of the possessive apostrophes long ago, since, as you say, they don’t stand for anything.  However, they would then have to give up being peeved at people who use, or don’t use, apostrophes when they shouldn’t / should.  So it will never happen; the satisfaction of being peeved is too great.

  2. Donald Petersen says:

    Nope.  No, I won’t get hauled into another discussion like this before the end of the month.  I just wasted much of last Thursday arguing about the non-literal usage of “literally.”

    All I’m gonna say here is “Bad Damon Knight!  Bad!”

  3. theophrastvs says:

    lets expunge all capital letters while were at it

  4. Cynical says:

    Thank god there’s nothing else going on in the world that these councillors could potentially use their position of authority to try and address..

  5. peregrinus says:

    Previously, on Tiverton Today, Councillor Cameron had a quiet beer with Simon Signmaker.  Now Cameron is heading into a council meeting full of beer and bluster.  What will he do next?

    Oooh I do love a good tele show, don’t you Mavis?  Fetch us a cup of tea, there’s a dear.

    • “Kippers for breakfast?” asked Aunt Helga.

      • peregrinus says:

        Smiling innocently as she recalls her illicit encounter the previous night with Simon Signmaker’s wife, who herself only recently aided and abetted the murder of Councillor Cameron’s nephew.

        Aunt Helga fretted about the state of the Post Office’s finances.  Mavis suggested she simply raid the depositors’ accounts for 10%, rather than having an embarrassing financial failure to deal with.

  6. Stephen Worth says:

    I live on an apostrophal street in Southern California and when I order online, the card verification won’t accept the street with the apostrophe in it. So this has already happened in the States.

    • King_Rocket says:

       Plus god forbid you have one in your name.

    • danimagoo says:

      I live in Lee’s Summit, Missouri. Or Lees Summit, depending on who you believe. I run into this problem a lot.

      • andygates says:

        But it’s not really a *problem*. Apart from the linguistic interest (after General Lee, Lee Marvin or the lee-side of the mountain?) no human is going to get it wrong and for systems even a coding virgin can strip punctuation from input.

        I actually live in the area described.  It really is just a bit of committee control freakery.  The reaction is as amusing as the proposal.

    • You and your apocryphal apsotrophal tales.

  7. They think that’s bad, come to Houston. Almost all the streets are deflected 30 degrees as they pass west of main street so they are at right angles to the grid in Montrose and 4th Ward. And all but Gray/West Gray change names. And no, West Dallas street does not count as there actually two West Dallas streets and the one that actually goes anywhere turns into Bagby. There are also streets with three names. Its even worse in the ‘burbs. Back in the 60′s they decided to preempt future streets with three names by drawing lines on a map and saying that if you developed land in the suburbs, you had to build a 4 lane boulevard if your land abuted these lines. So you have Boulevards to Nowhere with the same name as a country road three miles away.

    • Donald Petersen says:

      I like weirdness like that.  I find endless charm in places like London, where the same stretch of asphalt might change names five times in two miles.

      The creepy alternative is Salt Lake City (and other cities in Utah) which rely on a sensible north-south & east-west grid, numbered outward from the Temple at the center.  The big street two city blocks south of the Temple is 200 South.  Go down to that street and turn left.  After three city blocks you’ll hit 300 East.  A building on that corner will have an address like 301 East 200 South, Salt Lake City, UT.  And that address serves admirably as map coordinates.

      But as level-headed and practical as it is, I think it loses something when the street names are so cold and unevocative.  The non-numbered street names in SLC are still relentlessly practical and location-minded.  West Temple serves as the western boundary to the Temple.  State Street leads straight up the hill to the Utah State Capitol building.  University Blvd imaginatively abuts the University of Utah.  And then there’s the ever-so-original Main Street.  Heck, there’s even a Broadway, though I don’t believe it’s appreciably wider than any of Salt Lake’s unusually broad main drags (Brigham Young wanted wagon teams to be able to turn around easily enough that their drivers wouldn’t “resort to profanity.”)  I think streets in Camazotz would resemble those in SLC.

      I’ve come to like goofy streets like Lankershim Blvd, which chops diagonally through North Hollywood, CA for no good reason I can see.  There’s a midcentury housing development east of San Diego wherein all the streets are named after lakes which begin with the letter A.  And I used to ride a school bus through another housing development whose developers showed an incredible paucity of naming imagination: there’s a Jennings Vista Drive, Jennings Vista Way, Jennings Vista Trail, Jennings Vista Court, and Jennings Vista Circle.  And not one of those streets has any kind of view over neighboring Lake Jennings.

      • Dlo Burns says:

        Salt Lake streets seem rational at first blush (especially if you’re still in a stones-throw of a skyscraper) but then you head out or down and they lead to suburban ‘sheep trails’ as my dad says. Excepting for geography there are some really damn confusing roads like Highland dr (hell just look around 40.699772,-111.850691), Van Winkle which somehow goes from 7th east to Highland in more the 20th east area, Ft Union, the entire system change for the avenues which deeply confused my brother-in-law, New vs Old Bingham highway (west side represent), and the one I hate absolutely most of all: Vine street. Oh I hate vine street will a passion. If someone told me the secret to life was on vine street I would tie them down and waterboard them not to make them give up the specific location, but to punish them for suggesting to go to that horrible place.

        PS calling 3rd south broadway would do nothing but confuse a local, same with calling 6th MLK jr.

        • Donald Petersen says:

          When I was in high school (or thereabouts), San Diego tried renaming Market Street after Dr King.  Man, you should have heard the squawk.  One might have thought Market Street had been Market Street forever (when I think it started out as H Street, situated as it is between G Street and Island Avenue, followed by J Street).  Eventually, they decided to name Highway 94 after Dr King himself, since it didn’t have such a nostalgically valuable name.

          But one can’t be sure; San Diego seems to value its numbers more than its names when it comes to highways.  Angelenos will refer to the Golden State Freeway, the Hollywood Freeway, the Ventura Freeway, and the San Diego Freeway (even the Arroyo Seco Speedway, ha ha) to each other and everyone will know what they’re talking about.  But I don’t think the San Diegan has yet lived who speaks of traveling the Jacob Dekema Freeway down to the Kumeyaay Highway, or tries to avoid the Dr Martin Luther King Jr Freeway when heading downtown.

      • GlenBlank says:

        goofy streets like Lankershim Blvd, which chops diagonally through North Hollywood, CA for no good reason I can see.

        Lankershim roughly follows the path of the old road up from the pueblo of Los Angeles to the mission at San Fernando, along the western bank of the (middle branch of) the Tujunga Wash (in which the North Hollywood freeway was built after Hansen Dam diverted its water elsewhere and reduced it to a moderate-sized stormwater channel alongside the freeway).

        Notice how Lankershim and the freeway run roughly parallel?

        Isaac Lankershim, president of the Los Angeles Farm & Milling Co., ran the southern half of the San Fernando Valley as a vast wheat farm served by five separate ranches. 

        His son J.B. bought  a portion of the LAF&MCo land surrounding the Tujunga Wash and sudivided it into 10, 20 and 40 acre orchard parcels during LA’s first great land boom in the late 1880s.

        J.B’s  development, the Lankershim Ranch Land & Water Co.,  was the source of the present-day street grid, with Lankershim Blvd, (then called “San Fernando Ave.”) running on a 2:1 diagonal through it, parallel to (but slightly offset from) the old road to the mission.

        An historic map from the development’s 1887 sales brochure can be seen  at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lankershim_Ranch_Land_and_Water_Company_1887.png.

      • Wreckrob8 says:

        In London there is no rule that says a building actually has to be in the same street as its correct postal address. No 35 X street could well be found somewhere in Y street. And in many other old world towns I would imagine.

    • Dlo Burns says:

      Las Vegas has the same kind of problem, but the system seems more half-witted. There’s three Tonopahs that have nothing to do with each other.

  8. Boundegar says:

    Where would HP Lovecraft be without liberal use of apostrophes?

    Also, the K’shetriae of T’rain.

  9. stumo says:

    They’d love Cambridge – “Bene’t Street” and “Queens’ Road” amongst other joys. Devon also contains the town “Westward Ho!” which makes apostrophes seem normal

  10. peregrinus says:

    Many English villages have a “Vicar’s Green”.  I wouldn’t have grown up snorting at my dad’s jokes about how “the vicar’s green” if that apostrophe had been stolen.

  11. RitaMarieM says:

    I swear I’ve been reading Boing Boing for years and I’ve thought Cory Doctorow lives in Canada, the US and now this article says he lives in the UK. Which is it? I think the formatting of your posts lends to this confusion as I often also think before I click you’re writing what you’re actually just quoting.

  12. thatbob says:

    Becks Square and Blundells Avenue make sense without the apostrophe.

    But St. Georges Well makes it sound like there’s more than one St. George, and that the well is named for all of them.

  13. Daemonworks says:

    That’s it, I’m changing my name to ‘

  14. Crashproof says:

    If we give up on apostrophes, the terrorists win.

  15. tw1515tw says:

    The BBC has done other articles on this, and I recall one saying there’s an unwritten rule that a street name drops the apostrophe when it’s so old that no-one can remember whom the person was and why the street “belonged” to them. It just sort of happens. 

    St James’s Street moves from being possessive and becomes, I guess you call, an adjectival St James Street.

  16. Stooge says:

    They’re not going to remove apostrophes for existing street signs, they’re just proposing to avoid giving apostrophised names to streets in the future.

  17. Matthijs de Jonge says:

    “But given that all serious UK navigation and geocoding is done by postcode, this just seems like a bit of silliness.”

    Are you sure about this? Maybe it’s true for London, but I remember building a postcode lookup app for UK addresses a few years ago and being surprised at how coarse the resolution of the postcode grid is in some places. Some addresses were completely impossible to look up. There were also postal codes that covered multiple villages, making them unusable as both an address lookup tool and, I would imagine, an aid for navigation.

    Coming from the Netherlands, were every individual tree and shrubbery seems to have its own postal code, this surprised me greatly (and taught me a great deal about not making assumptions about infrastructure in different countries).

    • Stooge says:

      Yes, Cory is sure about that, but he’s still wrong :P

      I live in the middle of nowhere, UK and post codes are fairly useless for navigation outside of villages and towns as they can cover areas of several square kilometres. That being said, they’re not likely to cover a large number of roads (and certainly not many named roads), so the chances of encountering two apostrophically confusable road names within one complete post code area are indeed remote.

    • Postcodes are not used by anyone serious for geocoding. Use national property gazateer instead.

Leave a Reply